Expansion IS IT TIME FOR TWO DIVISIONS ??

[situationz]

please let this be a joke

 

[Art Vandelay_]

I've been against the idea of having conferences and the like but after talking to a colleague of mine in Adelaide today, I'm a little more open to the concept.

Based on the current ladder positions today (Tuesday, 4th August), here's how it might work :

Premier Division
1. PORT ADELAIDE
2. BRISBANE
3. ST KILDA
4. WEST COAST
5. RICHMOND
6. GEELONG
7. GREATER WESTERN SYDNEY
8. BULLDOGS
9. ESSENDON
10. COLLINGWOOD

Champion Division
1. GOLD COAST
2. CARLTON
3. HAWTHORN
4. NORTH MELBOURNE
5. MELBOURNE
6. FREMANTLE
7. SYDNEY
8. ADELAIDE
9. SYDNEY NORTH (new)
10. TASMANIA (new)

• 18 round season (teams play each other twice, one home and one away)
• final 5 in each division with playoffs to eventual premier
• relegation to Champion Division for bottom two teams of Premier Division annually
• promotion to Premier Division for top two teams of Champion Division annually
• two new teams created (eg. Sydney North & Tasmania) who start off in Champion Division
• team lists reduced to 35
• team numbers reduced to 20 (18 onfield plus two interchange/reserves only)
• one national draft for all 20 teams
• all teams who finished 3-10 in Champions Division get an extra priority pick prior to the first round of the national draft (they are given picks 1-8, then are given 9-16 and the remaining 12 teams follow from pick 17 in ladder finishing order)

Advantages

• makes games count for more due to finals eligibility and promotion & relegation
• gives everyone a completely even draw
• clubs get rewarded for being quality player recruitment & development (premiership & promotion)
• clubs get penalised for being continually poor in talent identification & performance (relegation)
• dramatically reduces the reasons for a club to tank
• extra game per week potentially increases broadcast rights value or opens up the option of splitting it between three FTA networks
• 10 teams play finals each year instead of 8
• extra finals each year
• creation of new Norm Smith medal & Brownlow medal (obviously with new names) for Champion Division
• the two new entities can be initially set-up via some (but not all) of the players who are delisted with the playing list reductions

Disadvantages

• clubs in lower division may be prone to player raids from clubs in higher division (some more thought is needed to prevent this from regularly happening)
• due to only 18 rounds, there are 18 less games over the whole year but this may be slightly offset by some extra finals matches
• will need to recruit, train & develop more umpires due to extra game each week

Should have marketed it as the #VICBIAS 10 + Sydney and Brisbane as de facto #VICBIAS clubs in one division and then the irrelevant 6 in the other just for the melts.

But in all seriousness, doubt we ever see a US style conference system.

 

[sherb]

The old VFA had promotion and relegation, so do the amateur footy leagues, at least they do in Western Australia.

I followed Geelong West in the VFA.

In 72 they won the 2nd Div flag, three years later in 75 they won the 1st Div flag.

 

[sherb]

I don't mind the idea of Divisions, with a flag to be competed for in each division each year.

 

[Coolangatta]

I don't mind the idea of Divisions, with a flag to be competed for in each division each year.

The argument against it as that the relegated clubs would struggle to be promoted and you'd just end up with the same few clubs winning every year like in the premier league.

But I can't help but think if the draft, salary cap, and club funding distribution from TV money remained in place that the division 2 sides wouldn't be so far behind the division 1 teams. As long as the funding is there then surely these teams can be of a professional standard.

Surely supporters of the big clubs would still watch their team play in the second division.

As for top draft picks, they could suck it up and play in the 2nd division while they're developing. Surely it wouldn't be a big deal if there were big clubs playing in the 2nd division and the pay was just as good.

The split could begin at 20 teams, 12 in the top division playing each other twice (plus gather round) and 8 in the second division that play each other 3 times (plus two gather rounds).

Then just adjust as you go.

 

[Engimal v3]

****in shit idea and always has been

 

[Coolangatta]

Conferences will probably be the way they'll go, although I don't think they will if it doesn't go over 22 teams, but if it does, I guarantee you they'll want/need to preserve the 2x western derbies, showdowns, Sydney, QLD derbies, marquee Vic clubs, and they'd be flipping stupid not to.

20 teams, 4 conferences, 5 teams each conference.
21 teams, 4 conferences, 5 teams in 3 conferences, 6 teams in 1 conference.
22 teams, 4 conferences, 5 teams in 2 conferences, 6 teams in 2 conferences.
23 teams, 4 conferences, 5 teams in 1 conference, 6 teams in 3 conferences.
24 teams, 4 conferences, 6 teams in 4 conferences.
25 teams, 6 conferences, 4 teams in 5 conferences, 5 teams in 1 conference.
26 teams, 6 conferences, 4 teams in 4 conferences, 5 teams in 2 conferences.
27 teams, 6 conferences, 4 teams in 3 conferences, 5 teams in 3 conferences.
28 teams, 6 conferences, 4 teams in 2 conferences, 5 teams in 4 conferences.
29 teams, 6 conferences, 4 teams in 1 conference, 5 teams in 5 conferences.
30 teams, 6 conferences, 5 teams in 6 conferences.

No, I'm not advocating for 30 teams, just showing how it can be done.

At some point I'd have a top 16 finals system. 6 conference winners + 10 best of the rest seeded by W-L record.

Wk 1

QF 1 v 8, 2 v 7, 3 v 6, 4 v 5
EF 9 v 16, 10 v 15, 11 v 14, 12 v 13

Wk 2

QF losers v EF winners

Wk 3

QF winners v Wk 2 winners

Wk 4

Wk 3 winners play off

Wk 5

GF

 

[glengowan]

For when Tassie comes in and there is 19 teams:

Conference Stage - 18 Weekends
Victorian Conference - 10 Vic teams play each other home and away - 18 Rounds, 18 Games
National Conference - 9 Interstate teams play each other home and away - 18 Rounds, 16 Games (2 byes each)
1st placed in each conference at end of 18 Rounds is announced Conference Champions. Top 3 from each conference to Super 6 stage, the rest to the qualifying stage.

Super 6 & Qualifying Stage - 8 Weekends
Super 6: Top 3 from Victorian Conference play top 3 from National Conference home and away (6 games over 8 weekends*). Records from Conference Stage for games against other 2 teams from your conference are carried through to this stage. At end of stage, top 6 is determined by ladder, with each team having played the other 5 teams home and away over the course of the season.

* Two Super 6 games to be scheduled Fri N and Sat N over first 6 weekends and then three Super 6 games to be scheduled over the last 2 weekends in the lead in to finals. All Victorian home games to be played at the MCG.

Qualifying: Bottom 7 from Victorian Conference and bottom 6 from National Conference play each other once (6 games over 7 weekends for Vic teams and 7 games over 7 weekends for interstate teams). Records from Conference Stage for games against other qualifying teams (not for games against Super 6 teams) from your conference are carried through to this stage. Games in qualifying stage are worth double points, so every team over the course of the season can earn a maximum of 96 points. On the final (8th) weekend, 1st plays 4th and 2nd plays 3rd. The two highest placed winners fill positions 7 & 8 in the Finals.

Finals - 4 Weekends
The top 8 Finals format is played out exactly as it is now, with positions 1-6 determined by the Super 6 stage and positions 7 & 8 determined by the Qualifying stage.

 

[HBFlanker]

There's merit to two conferences but the AFLPA will never agree to more games per teams. its already stretched as is.

This is what I think should happen.

Play everyone once - 19 games (including Gather Round)
Play a marquee/rival double up (Showdown, Coll vs Carl etc) - 1 game

Based on previous season ladder positions split the fixturing into 5 pools of 4 (1-4,5-8,9-12,13-16,17-20), of which each team plays other teams in that pool once more. - 3 games

Total 23 games.

This could theoretically mean you play another team three times in a regular season, but that's no more lopsided than the fixture currently is.

 

[Professor Knowall]

… This could theoretically mean you play another team three times in a regular season, but that's no more lopsided than the fixture currently is.

Well, actually that would make it more lopsided than now. Imagine the advantage of playing North in 3 H&A games this season.

 

[HBFlanker]

Well, actually that would make it more lopsided than now. Imagine the advantage of playing North in 3 H&A games this season.

Imagine playing 17+ home games whilst your opponents travel 3336KMS every second week.

 

[The Tilt]

For when Tassie comes in and there is 19 teams:

Conference Stage - 18 Weekends
Victorian Conference - 10 Vic teams play each other home and away - 18 Rounds, 18 Games
National Conference - 9 Interstate teams play each other home and away - 18 Rounds, 16 Games (2 byes each)
1st placed in each conference at end of 18 Rounds is announced Conference Champions. Top 3 from each conference to Super 6 stage, the rest to the qualifying stage.

Super 6 & Qualifying Stage - 8 Weekends
Super 6: Top 3 from Victorian Conference play top 3 from National Conference home and away (6 games over 8 weekends*). Records from Conference Stage for games against other 2 teams from your conference are carried through to this stage. At end of stage, top 6 is determined by ladder, with each team having played the other 5 teams home and away over the course of the season.

* Two Super 6 games to be scheduled Fri N and Sat N over first 6 weekends and then three Super 6 games to be scheduled over the last 2 weekends in the lead in to finals. All Victorian home games to be played at the MCG.

Qualifying: Bottom 7 from Victorian Conference and bottom 6 from National Conference play each other once (6 games over 7 weekends for Vic teams and 7 games over 7 weekends for interstate teams). Records from Conference Stage for games against other qualifying teams (not for games against Super 6 teams) from your conference are carried through to this stage. Games in qualifying stage are worth double points, so every team over the course of the season can earn a maximum of 96 points. On the final (8th) weekend, 1st plays 4th and 2nd plays 3rd. The two highest placed winners fill positions 7 & 8 in the Finals.

Finals - 4 Weekends
The top 8 Finals format is played out exactly as it is now, with positions 1-6 determined by the Super 6 stage and positions 7 & 8 determined by the Qualifying stage.

Ok but, why? For the love of God, why?

 

[Walshawk]

Ok but, why? For the love of God, why?

Thought experiment only. No chance of conferecnes ever happening. Absolutely no benefit to them.

 

[Seedsfan]

Division’s and drafts are incompatible

 

[glengowan]

Ok but, why? For the love of God, why?

To fulfill the need for big crowds, blockbuster games for tv and trying to have a fairer fixture.

First 18 rounds is home and away with all the blockbuster games doubling up plus more (I.e. all the VIC clubs play each other twice).

The next part of the season sees the best against the best from each conference and eventuates with a top 6 from each team playing each other home and away. A fair outcome heading in to finals and guaranteed blockbusters for prime time tv. There is some chance for the rest to still make finals, instead of season being over.

 

[The Educator]

To fulfill the need for big crowds, blockbuster games for tv and trying to have a fairer fixture.

First 18 rounds is home and away with all the blockbuster games doubling up plus more (I.e. all the VIC clubs play each other twice).

The next part of the season sees the best against the best from each conference and eventuates with a top 6 from each team playing each other home and away. A fair outcome heading in to finals and guaranteed blockbusters for prime time tv. There is some chance for the rest to still make finals, instead of season being over.

Don't think there is any chance of splitting out Victorian and non-Victorian into two conferences where Victorian clubs don't leave Victorian for the first 18 weeks and the Northern clubs get no home games against big Melbourne clubs. It is also too radical a departure from the historic single ladder.

The best approach to resolving the imbalance always comes back to versions of the "play a single round robin then split league into 3 groups based on ladder position"

 

[sthmelb_dimmies]

Division’s and drafts are incompatible

As are your use of possessive apostrophe and plural above

 

[RedV3x]

Don't think there is any chance of splitting out Victorian and non-Victorian into two conferences

Probably, because it too far removed from tradition but it is the best solution all round.

Having a 20 team competition is a killjoy for approximately 3/5 of fans (those out of the top 8)
Having a VFL competition and and AFL competition leads to two grand finals and a super bowl evoking S.O.O. type hysteria.
For a 23 round competition = 18 H&A games and 5 games from half other conference rotated annually.

 

[Coolangatta]

Probably, because it too far removed from tradition but it is the best solution all round.

Having a 20 team competition is a killjoy for approximately 3/5 of fans (those out of the top 8)
Having a VFL competition and and AFL competition leads to two grand finals and a super bowl evoking S.O.O. type hysteria.
For a 23 round competition = 18 H&A games and 5 games from half other conference rotated annually.

Yep, though I’d like to see inter conference games tipped in travel favour 4-1 of interstate. So that would be 7-8 away games + 1 at the MCG = 8-9 road trips a year. Vic clubs would only travel 4 times a year but I wouldn’t mind if it meant interstate teams also travelled less.

Edit: or 3-2 split and interstate sides hub in Melbourne for a fortnight.

 

[LordLucifer]

I've had a rethink on the conference idea .................. and NO !!

I'd rather see a 22-team competition playing a 21-round season, that way its completely fair.

 

[RedV3x]

I'd rather see a 22-team competition playing a 21-round season, that way its completely fair.

So you think it would be "fair".

is it fair that half the league has to travel and half doesn't?

is it fair that half the league has access to finals venues and half doesn't?

is it fair that half the league has many derbies and half doesn't?

is it fair that half the league has the benefit of umpires and half doesn't?

is it fair that half the league has the best players and half doesn't?

is it fair that half the league has the best coaches and half doesn't?

is it fair that half the league has the best resources and half doesn't?

is it fair that half the league doesn't listen to the other half ?

 

[JohnZ]

I've had a rethink on the conference idea .................. and NO !!

I'd rather see a 22-team competition playing a 21-round season, that way its completely fair.

Conferences are unfair. I agree.

Divisions are fair. Good teams play good teams. Developing teams play developing teams.

This year the top 12 are all competitive. Imagine if they only had to play each other every week.

 

[RedV3x]

Divisions are fair. Good teams play good teams. Developing teams play developing teams.

Divisions are definitely unfair as are all equalisation measures being unfair but are absolutely necessary for the long term health of the league.

 

[JohnZ]

Divisions are definitely unfair as are all equalisation measures being unfair but are absolutely necessary for the long term health of the league.

Is it fair to make north/eagles/richmond show up every week and get smashed by 50pts?

A second division allows for more competitive games overall.

If each division started with 10 teams and expanded to 12 eventually, having 3-4 teams relegated or promoted each year should aim to minimise entrenchment at either end.

 

[RedV3x]

Is it fair to make north/eagles/richmond show up every week and get smashed by 50pts?

Yes, it's totally fair.
That's why we have equalisation measures in place that are NOT fair but make for a more interesting season.