Is Jeremey McGovern the best intercept mark the game has ever seen?

[Reservoir tiger]

And McGovern is the best.

You literally saw the black and white stats haha

1. Rance 2. Howe 3. McGovern

 

[Scotland]

You literally saw the black and white stats haha

1. Rance 2. Howe 3. McGovern

I'm just following Richo83's advice. "Eagles fans, ditch the numbers, look at how they play".

Also intercepts and intercept marks are not the same thing.

 

[demondavey]

There is a 5 times Premiership player at Hawthorn who was so good he kept Peter Knights out of CHB in our team of the century.

Chris Mew.

His game style would slot straight in to a modern footy team.

Correct. I also think Chris Langford is one of the best FB ever. The way FB had to deal with the style of footy and the type of absolute guns getting around was seriously tough. Langford would’ve been playing on Lockett, Ablett, Sumich, Modra, Salmon, Longmire Kernahan. It actually was what a real FB was like.

That’s why I can’t give Rance or McGovern the same kudos as the guns back in the old days. There was no zoning, it was just ‘stop your man scoring’. There were a lot of genuine stoppers, but Langford and Mew actually ran off their men and could kick.

 

[Kangapirate]

For the Eagles to be a shot he is going to need to become the best intercept spoiler in the comp over the next month, he dropped a couple that led to Richmond goals and flew for a few that he got nowhere near, when the conditions suit theirs nobody better.

 

[LeakyValve]

Agree, but I am sorry for your having the burden of supporting EP.

That burden was never more onerous than at 3/4 time in the 1969 GF.
WP 18.19 (127) EP 4.6 (30) and the filth captain-coached by an ex-EP legend.
Didn't help that I was full of burgeoning teenage angst too.

 

[Richo83]

Ditch the stats so the Richmond guy comes out on top, righto. And you are one of the long term good Richmond posters.

Stats are relevant, sure. But they're a product of playing style.

Rance took 27 contested marks one season, his best. McGovern took 30 in his first season, of 13 games. His best is 67. He averages over 2 a game over 133 games. If you want to look at how they play, consider that.

Why are you only looking at contested marks? They're only a portion of the marks that defenders take. Isn't the whole point of a good intercepting defender is that they don't need to always take contested marks, they know how to peel off their man and intercept in space? That was Rance's party trick and it's why he has less contested marks.

Rance played like a bigger Josh Gibson and people fawn over him like he was Silvagni, Jakovich, Langford and Scarlett all rolled into one. It's an indictment on modern footy fans that a key forward kicks 5 and his opponent is praised as though he's Jakovich drubbing Carey.

A Josh Gibson who won five All-Australians at full-back, sure. Plus, Rance didn't have many bags kicked on him in his heyday.

Richmond with Rance (and Vlasutin, Grimes, Astbury etc.) were destroyed by Mason Cox (a tall potato) and Jordan De Goey (a talented medium forward) in a prelim. Rance had 20 touches and took 6 marks. Richmond post-Rance let Aaron Naughton take 10 contested marks and have 8 shots at goal. Jeremy Cameron had 30 touches and kicked 7.5. Meanwhile with a full complement of midfielders and forwards back and a few weeks of form the same team steamrolled the Lions, Cats and Giants to win the flag. That people still don't get that Richmond's entire game plan revolves around the pressure from the forward, half forward and centre lines is baffling. The Tigers had the game on their terms on Thursday but it was still close. McGovern had to defend like a defender and neither Lynch or Riewoldt were BOG candidates. We would've loved him to take 10 marks but if Lynch or Riewoldt kicked a bag as a result what's the point? Rd 22 last year was 62-44 inside 50s and came down to the last goal. The only meeting at Perth Stadium was on our terms and we won by 8 goals. Jack Darling made Rance look like a first gamer. What is the point of being an 'intercept defender' if you can't defend?

You're presuming that I was rating them on being a defender rather than an interceptor. They're different words because they mean different things. Being a defender means, the ability to stop through negation and creation. Being an interceptor means.... well, the ability to intercept. They're not the same thing.

That said, I think it's crazy to think that Rance was a poor defender. You don't win so much accolades as a defender without being a good one. If he was just a taller Josh Gibson he'd be praised like him. But he wasn't.

That's what makes McGovern so valuable. He is a defender first and foremost. If there are opportunities to go for the mark over the or spoil, or he backs himself to leave his man etc. then the takes them. But he's not in the side to take uncontested marks while Hawkins or Dixon or whoever kick bags.

He's a defender who largely defends one part of the defence. He's very good at it, but it's one part. There's been analysis which states that McGovern can be beaten by hitting up the forwards further away from goal and relying more on small forwards. McGovern's output when teams play like this is bad. Whereas Rance's game is more complete and harder to negate.

Here's the difference between Rance and McGovern: McGovern defends more close to goal and often fills the hole between CHF and FF. Rance switched from key backman to roaming free safety covering the entire backline. McGovern is arguably better at defending close to goal, but Rance was more versatile in being able to cover every player in the backline. This is why I think he's a better interceptor than McGovern, because he would often chop off the play further away from goal using smothers, punches, taps etc. It's why the intercept mark stat is also misleading, because if you intercept but don't mark it, it's still an intercept.

 

[Richo83]

A lot of footy fans still haven’t figured out the difference between the old loose man in defence who would pick up cheap intercept marks,, and players in current defensive systems who are both highly accountable within a zone, and will be in lots of one on one contests, but can also use their brains to know when to zone off an opponent to intercept or create a 2 on 1. A lot of people simply can not grasp this. They think McGovern or Rance never beat an oppo one on one and had the freedom to stroll around at their leisure, when in reality they constantly win one on ones AND know when to zone off and intercept. Well, Rance used to

Both good players, I just think they play different styles and have different strengths and weaknesses. Rance's main weakness was his ability to be monstered by bigs. McGovern's weakness is his ability to be schemed against by avoiding the long kick into the forwardline.

 

[Scotland]

Stats are relevant, sure. But they're a product of playing style.

Indeed. And if your whole job is to play loose in defence then it's significantly easier to take uncontested marks compared to being responsible for a direct opponent. There is no such thing as an interceptor, unless you are a Ford Falcon. It's a skill you can be proficient at within the game.

Why are you only looking at contested marks? They're only a portion of the marks that defenders take. Isn't the whole point of a good intercepting defender is that they don't need to always take contested marks, they know how to peel off their man and intercept in space? That was Rance's party trick and it's why he has less contested marks.

I'm not only looking at it. It's one stat.

McGovern vs Rance is 4.6 / 2.2 vs 4.8 / 0.9 in terms of uncontested vs contested marks by career average. Let's not pretend Rance got Nick Riewoldt numbers of marks.

Last week when people were frothing over McGovern he took 10 marks, 5 contested and 5 uncontested. You reckon he doesn't peel off? Some games he takes 10+ uncontested marks.

A Josh Gibson who won five All-Australians at full-back, sure. Plus, Rance didn't have many bags kicked on him in his heyday.

The same All Australian selectors who picked Luke McPharlin once in his entire career and never selected Robbie Tarrant or Eric Mackenzie? The same All Australian selectors who picked Laird, Docherty and Hibberd in the same back line?

FWIW Josh Gibson made one AA side and a couple of squads, he was no spud. But his team won 0 flags until they recruited Brian Lake which allowed him to play to his strengths as a third man up defender and ball distributor.

You're presuming that I was rating them on being a defender rather than an interceptor. They're different words because they mean different things. Being a defender means, the ability to stop through negation and creation. Being an interceptor means.... well, the ability to intercept. They're not the same thing.

That said, I think it's crazy to think that Rance was a poor defender. You don't win so much accolades as a defender without being a good one. If he was just a taller Josh Gibson he'd be praised like him. But he wasn't.

I'm 'presuming' that they play the same or a very similar position in the same sport. You're trying to create positions that don't exist. If you want to say that Astbury is FB, Grimes is CHB and Rance is either a pocket player or flanker go for it, but I'll then just consider anything he did relative to James Sicily, Shannon Hurn and other non key defenders.

He's a defender who largely defends one part of the defence. He's very good at it, but it's one part. There's been analysis which states that McGovern can be beaten by hitting up the forwards further away from goal and relying more on small forwards. McGovern's output when teams play like this is bad. Whereas Rance's game is more complete and harder to negate.

He's a key defender who plays CHB/FB depending on match ups and in game tactics. If we play Richmond he gets Riewoldt or Lynch. If we play Collingwood then he gets Cox or Mihocek. Etc. How he plays depends on who his opponent is and how the game is unfolding. Pretty standard stuff.

Here's the difference between Rance and McGovern: McGovern defends more close to goal and often fills the hole between CHF and FF. Rance switched from key backman to roaming free safety covering the entire backline. McGovern is arguably better at defending close to goal, but Rance was more versatile in being able to cover every player in the backline. This is why I think he's a better interceptor than McGovern, because he would often chop off the play further away from goal using smothers, punches, taps etc. It's why the intercept mark stat is also misleading, because if you intercept but don't mark it, it's still an intercept.

You see this is why people don't take Richmond fans seriously. Rance didn't play some magical position where he covered the entire backline.

I remember flogging Richmond a few years ago and Kennedy and Darling did what they pleased. Kennedy kicked the most goals and Richmond fans were adamant Astbury was on him. Rance had 18 uncontested possessions, none of which had any impact on Darling marking inside 50 and kicking goals. Cool. Fast forward to 2018 and Darling put on a clinic. Rance was his opponent despite the protestations of the Tiger fans. 15 marks, 6 goals 2. It was the midfield's fault, despite Richmond winning the clearances and inside 50s. Everyone remembers the 2018 prelim. Rance 20 touches 6 marks. Whatever Rance did, mental gymnastics soon followed to justify how he was the best at what he was doing on that day. Franklin kicks 7.4: 'OMG how good was Rance with his 22 touches'. Franklin kicked 8 against us in the first ever game at Optus Stadium. Barrass was on him mostly, but you won't me saying Barrass or McGovern had good games.

The difference between me and others is that I don't care how many flashy spoils and possessions Rance or any other defender gets. If you are conceding 10 contested marks and 8 marks inside 50 to Cox and De Goey then uncontested marks and intercepts and any other modern stat categories don't mean much. If you get 10 intercepts a game from the ball going inside 50 up to 50 times a game then great, but if the other 40 times lead to your opposition kicking 20 goals then what's the point?

The intercept mark stat isn't misleading at all. It used to just be called marks from opposition kicks which is what it is. Have we really reached the point where we want to praise defenders for marking the ball without caring about whether that has any impact on the game?

 

[_Mike_]

FESTIVAL OF RED NOW IN EFFECT: READ THE MAINBOARD RULES THREAD

Mod. Notice - Main Board Rules: UPDATED April 2023 PLEASE READ

Welcome to the Main Board The objective of the AFL board is to have a board where posters can discuss football in a sensible manner. If you are not interested in posting in a sensible manner, don’t post here. You might be carded, and/or have your access removed. The Main Board Guidelines are...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Port Adel Proud]

That burden was never more onerous than at 3/4 time in the 1969 GF.
WP 18.19 (127) EP 4.6 (30) and the filth captain-coached by an ex-EP legend.
Didn't help that I was full of burgeoning teenage angst too.

I was 11 in 1969 and am a lifelong "filth" supporter. Thank you for Graham Farmer. I fear that 1971 was no less onerous for you.

 

[_Mike_]

A good intercept in today’s game but best ever? Nope, not IMO

 

[LeakyValve]

I was 11 in 1969 and am a lifelong "filth" supporter. Thank you for Graham Farmer. I fear that 1971 was no less onerous for you.

Putting aside your taste for the dark arts, you should help me expound to the BF community what wonderful footballers Doug Green and Peter Steward were.
Identikit footballers in build (tall and rangy) and very similar the way they played the game. Intelligent, no-nonsense and in particular, their "intercept marking".
Both would be regular AA selections and first picked every match even today.
BTW. Often use to see Peter Steward running along Central Ave in Inglewood. Lucky he had retired by then, otherwise I might have had a go at running over him.
Man. Must have been in his mid 40's and still looked like he would get a kick.

 

[Port Adel Proud]

Putting aside your taste for the dark arts, you should help me expound to the BF community what wonderful footballers Doug Green and Peter Steward were.
Identikit footballers in build (tall and rangy) and very similar the way they played the game. Intelligent, no-nonsense and in particular, their "intercept marking".
Both would be regular AA selections and first picked every match even today.
BTW. Often use to see Peter Steward running along Central Ave in Inglewood. Lucky he had retired by then, otherwise I might had a go at running over him.
Man. Must have been in his mid 40's and still looked like he would get a kick.

Doug Green certainly deserves to be in the discussion but too few of us would have seen him. Never beaten even at interstate level.

As for Peter Steward, I assume he had some good years at NMFC too. What a thumping kick?

BTW, I did try to run Phil Tierney over: years after he retired.

 

[LeakyValve]

Before I forget, Ross Glendinning was a dab hand at cutting the angles and clunking them. Not the big grab, but working his way into the right spots.

 

[Power Raid]

definitely one of the best and definitely enjoyable to watch

Kinights, Phillips, Jako, Roos, Glendinning, Dench, Rance, Grant all just as good if not better

 

[Port Adel Proud]

definitely one of the best and definitely enjoyable to watch

Kinights, Phillips, Jako, Roos, Glendinning, Dench, Rance, Grant all just as good if not better

Are you old enough to remember Brian France ?

 

[Generalissimo]

Corey Enright says hi.

 

[Power Raid]

Are you old enough to remember Brian France ?

I moved to Perth the first time in '93 and settled here in '99

so I missed all the WA greats.

 

[Captain_Bender]

Ditch the stats so the Richmond guy comes out on top, righto. And you are one of the long term good Richmond posters.

Rance took 27 contested marks one season, his best. McGovern took 30 in his first season, of 13 games. His best is 67. He averages over 2 a game over 133 games. If you want to look at how they play, consider that.

Rance played like a bigger Josh Gibson and people fawn over him like he was Silvagni, Jakovich, Langford and Scarlett all rolled into one. It's an indictment on modern footy fans that a key forward kicks 5 and his opponent is praised as though he's Jakovich drubbing Carey.

Richmond with Rance (and Vlasutin, Grimes, Astbury etc.) were destroyed by Mason Cox (a tall potato) and Jordan De Goey (a talented medium forward) in a prelim. Rance had 20 touches and took 6 marks. Richmond post-Rance let Aaron Naughton take 10 contested marks and have 8 shots at goal. Jeremy Cameron had 30 touches and kicked 7.5. Meanwhile with a full complement of midfielders and forwards back and a few weeks of form the same team steamrolled the Lions, Cats and Giants to win the flag. That people still don't get that Richmond's entire game plan revolves around the pressure from the forward, half forward and centre lines is baffling. The Tigers had the game on their terms on Thursday but it was still close. McGovern had to defend like a defender and neither Lynch or Riewoldt were BOG candidates. We would've loved him to take 10 marks but if Lynch or Riewoldt kicked a bag as a result what's the point? Rd 22 last year was 62-44 inside 50s and came down to the last goal. The only meeting at Perth Stadium was on our terms and we won by 8 goals. Jack Darling made Rance look like a first gamer. What is the point of being an 'intercept defender' if you can't defend?

That's what makes McGovern so valuable. He is a defender first and foremost. If there are opportunities to go for the mark over the or spoil, or he backs himself to leave his man etc. then the takes them. But he's not in the side to take uncontested marks while Hawkins or Dixon or whoever kick bags.

Lol you still sooking over Rance how sad

 

[Vindicater]

Dustin Fletcher would have been an absolute superstar in this era of 7 defenders.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Brian Lake is the best intercept mark I have ever seen.

He just seemed to read the flight of the ball so much earlier than everyone else and he had magnificent hands.

He was very good for the Hawks but he was at his absolute peak for the Bulldogs in 2010 when he racked up 41 disposals and 22 marks in a match against North Melbourne. Those numbers are just insane (he also took 24 marks in a match against Brisbane in 2007).

Plus he was a big game player as his Norm Smith Medal shows.

 

[HairyO]

Correct. I also think Chris Langford is one of the best FB ever. The way FB had to deal with the style of footy and the type of absolute guns getting around was seriously tough. Langford would’ve been playing on Lockett, Ablett, Sumich, Modra, Salmon, Longmire Kernahan. It actually was what a real FB was like.

That’s why I can’t give Rance or McGovern the same kudos as the guns back in the old days. There was no zoning, it was just ‘stop your man scoring’. There were a lot of genuine stoppers, but Langford and Mew actually ran off their men and could kick.

Those one on one battles are what people paid to see.

Giants of the game in a test of strength and skill.

The 70s had way too many cheap shots but the 80s really was the pinnacle.

And I dont just say that because of our 90s and 00s drought

 

[Power Raid]

Brian Lake is the best intercept mark I have ever seen.

He just seemed to read the flight of the ball so much earlier than everyone else and he had magnificent hands.

He was very good for the Hawks but he was at his absolute peak for the Bulldogs in 2010 when he racked up 41 disposals and 22 marks in a match against North Melbourne. Those numbers are just insane (he also took 24 marks in a match against Brisbane in 2007).

Plus he was a big game player as his Norm Smith Medal shows.

a very much underrated player

 

[Simon Crawshay]

a very much underrated player

For a short period of time in the 2000s I honestly believe that Lake was the most damaging player in the league as other teams litteraly couldn't get the ball past him.

I think that Brians off field misdeeds make people forget sometimes just how bloody good he was (in the same way that supporters underate Sicily at Hawks due to his fiery antics)

 

[La Vache]

I am led to believe this is the domain of Gary Dempsey and Peter Knights. Dempsey plucked over 20 marks a few times playing the ruckman a kick behind. I never saw him play but growing up he was talked about as the prototype for this role.