Is Old Music Killing New Music?

tonygeeks

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These guys always get brought up in ‘ rock is dead ‘ conversations but that is just boring , 1 so so idea flattened out to 2 and a 1/2 minutes and they are a pretty bland imitation of parquet courts anyway


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These guys always get brought up in ‘ rock is dead ‘ conversations but that is just boring , 1 so so idea flattened out to 2 and a 1/2 minutes and they are a pretty bland imitation of parquet courts anyway


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wow 1:09 lead in that's unheard of these days!
Great song if this was the late 70's early 80's punk era it would have been a smashing hit!
Good tune. Spoken lyrics. Reminds me a bit of later Fall. There's so much good contemprary music.
 
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A couple of points:

1) It has never been easier for a younger generation to listen to older music. As an example, when I was ten years old the only music I listened to was what my Dad had bought or what was on Rage/radio etc. I couldn't buy "old" music and it wasn't worth the risk as I didn't know what I was getting. Now it is available on Spotify etc. for free.

2) The new vs old thing. Well if you consider "new" music as music within the last few years you just can't compete with the DECADES of older music. Especially if you are a younger person who is discovering it for the first time. Whether it was made 2 months ago or 30 years ago, it is still new music to these people.

3) The money for bands these days is in the live scene and not album sales. So if you have established a fanbase you can tour forever and not release any new music. A lot of older bands do that. Also, how many emails do I get from promoters etc. with upcoming concerts. So many of it is for tribute bands, even some where the real bands are still touring! People have chosen this, otherwise all these tribute bands wouldn't be around.

4) The "scenes" that come along. Birth of Rock n Roll, British Invasion, Prog Rock, Punk, New Romantics, Grunge, Britpop, "The" bands (Strokes etc.). I haven't seen a new scene around for a while. Nothing has really happened lately that has shaken up music. But I stand to be corrected on this, I'm just going on what I know.

There is still good new music around but because of the above it isn't front and centre like it used to be. It just isn't promoted. The labels will go where the money is. Hey, they are a business!
 
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It’s never been easier for artists to make, produce, promote and distribute music.
It’s never been easier for punters to access it.
Music is thriving.
Is this the problem through? How much of that music is any good or lasting? Will anyone be listening to today’s music in 30 years time like we are listen to muisc today from 30 years ago? Making it easy for artist to produce music isn’t a good thing imo. All you need is a trap beats machine and any talentless hack is making a dollar. To much of the some s**t isn’t always a good thing It just saturates the market with junk. One of the reason hair mental died out in the early 90s was that there was to much of the some s**t that just saturated the market and people got sick of it and drifted off to something different eg.. grunge or hence seek alternative rock. The difference today is the market won’t allow anything else or any new trents to come through because it’s not practical for the record companies to produce it or for traditional media to promote it.
 
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As a random question, still tangentially linked to the thread question, who would we consider the best artist of the past 10-15 years?

I would nominate:

The National
Sufjan Stevens
Radiohead
Mastodon
La Dispute
Four Tet
Tim Hecker
Titus Andronicus (limited output, but big peak)
The Tallest Man On Earth
Converge
Flying Lotus
Baroness
Trophy Scars
Beach House
The Ocean
Kendrick Lamar
Jeff Rosenstock (BTMI! and solo)
MeWithoutYou

Might just be my tastes and probably more likely the music I've been exposed to and has been released while I've been discovering music, but I'd take that list over a comparable set of 'best' 80's or 90's artists.
 
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Is this the problem through? How much of that music is any good or lasting? Will anyone be listening to today’s music in 30 years time like we are listen to muisc today from 30 years ago? Making it easy for artist to produce music isn’t a good thing imo. All you need is a trap beats machine and any talentless hack is making a dollar. To much of the some s**t isn’t always a good thing It just saturates the market with junk. One of the reason hair mental died out in the early 90s was that there was to much of the some s**t that just saturated the market and people got sick of it and drifted off to something different eg.. grunge or hence seek alternative rock. The difference today is the market won’t allow anything else or any new trents to come through because it’s not practical for the record companies to produce it or for traditional media to promote it.
sure there’s plenty of junk but there’s a lot of good stuff too.
will any of it be lasting? some of it, but the sheer volume of music and it’s accessibility make it easier to move on to the next thing so it’s less likely than before.

the real beauty of it is that we’re no longer slaves to major record companies and traditional media. that model is practically dead. I can listen to whatever genre of music I want, whenever I want and because artists can make whatever they want there’s something for everyone…even hair metal.
 

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It's an interesting topic. I'm 70 next birthday, so I've been buying music since the mid 60s. I try not to listen to too much 'old' music, as I always say, the people who are still banging on about Led Zep and Black Sabbath in their 60s are the same people who complained that their parents didn't get the Beatles, and were still banging on abut Glenn Miller! But Glenn Miller was way closer in time to Led Zep than Led Zep is to now! There's good music being produced all the times, but as noted, the music scene is so fragmented now.

The ever-increasing impact of TV, films, and social profile (all with their own carefully curated soundtracks) adds to the universality of 'old' music.

But I think the biggest factor is that music just doesn't have the centrality in in young people's lives that it did when I was a kid. When a new record came out by Dylan, or the Stones, or the Pink Floyd, we'd all go round someone's flat, and everybody would basically STFU and listen it it! And then play it all over again. OK, we were smoking weed and taking drucks too, but still! :D Point, is, that would be unthinkable today.
 
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I don't think this has been mentained but the shows that came along in the early 2000's onwards like Pop Stars, X-Factor etc have a lot to answer for.

Music became less of an artform and more of a competition. The winners made a song that hit #1 due to the hype but there was no interest in these shows to make long lasting music. Just milk the winner enough until the next season, rinse and repeat.
 
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This is bonkers! The record industry has truly hit the bottom of the pits. When the artists themselves need to rely on creating viral TickTok videos to gain the record labels attention its no wonder why no real new music can get through in the mainstream.

 
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Found an awesome article by Ted Gioia from the Atlantic about how old music is currently killing new music in all aspects sales, streaming, popularity.. But its more than just that, the direction the music industry is or has moved in is making it virtually impossible for new music to make any traction. I found it very interesting. Instead of just brushing it off by making the claim that new music just plan sucks (which imo mainstream music does) Ted dismisses that and makes some astonishing and good points, that the industry doesn't create or look for new musical artists anymore but rather be more interested in buying old artists catalogues. Also raises the question how did the industry get here? and how does the music industry get out of it's current trajectory? Anyway I thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss, would love to know what you guys think, can the music industry be revived to what it once was.. creative, innovative and trend leaders? Or will it continue to head in its current path of soulless greedy corporate money making ventures.

Is Old Music Killing New Music?​

Old songs now represent 70 percent of the U.S. music market. Even worse: The new-music market is actually shrinking.
By Ted Gioia

January 23, 2022
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About the author: Ted Gioia writes the music and popular-culture newsletter The Honest Broker on Substack. He is also the author of 11 books, including, most recently, Music: A Subversive History.

Old songs now represent 70 percent of the U.S. music market, according to the latest numbers from MRC Data, a music-analytics firm. Those who make a living from new music—especially that endangered species known as the working musician—should look at these figures with fear and trembling. But the news gets worse: The new-music market is actually shrinking. All the growth in the market is coming from old songs.

U.S Catalog vs. Current Consumption
Source: MRC Data
The 200 most popular new tracks now regularly account for less than 5 percent of total streams. That rate was twice as high just three years ago. The mix of songs actually purchased by consumers is even more tilted toward older music. The current list of most-downloaded tracks on iTunes is filled with the names of bands from the previous century, such as Creedence Clearwater Revival and The Police.

I encountered this phenomenon myself recently at a retail store, where the youngster at the cash register was singing along with Sting on “Message in a Bottle” (a hit from 1979) as it blasted on the radio. A few days earlier, I had a similar experience at a local diner, where the entire staff was under 30 but every song was more than 40 years old. I asked my server: “Why are you playing this old music?” She looked at me in surprise before answering: “Oh, I like these songs.”

Never before in history have new tracks attained hit status while generating so little cultural impact. In fact, the audience seems to be embracing the hits of decades past instead. Success was always short-lived in the music business, but now even new songs that become bona fide hits can pass unnoticed by much of the population.

Only songs released in the past 18 months get classified as “new” in the MRC database, so people could conceivably be listening to a lot of two-year-old songs, rather than 60-year-old ones. But I doubt these old playlists consist of songs from the year before last. Even if they did, that fact would still represent a repudiation of the pop-culture industry, which is almost entirely focused on what’s happening right now.

Every week I hear from hundreds of publicists, record labels, band managers, and other professionals who want to hype the newest new thing. Their livelihoods depend on it. The entire business model of the music industry is built on promoting new songs. As a music writer, I’m expected to do the same, as are radio stations, retailers, DJs, nightclub owners, editors, playlist curators, and everyone else with skin in the game. Yet all the evidence indicates that few listeners are paying attention.

Consider the recent reaction when the Grammy Awards were postponed. Perhaps I should say the lack of reaction, because the cultural response was little more than a yawn. I follow thousands of music professionals on social media, and I didn’t encounter a single expression of annoyance or regret that the biggest annual event in new music had been put on hold. That’s ominous.

Can you imagine how angry fans would be if the Super Bowl or NBA Finals were delayed? People would riot in the streets. But the Grammy Awards go missing in action, and hardly anyone notices.

The declining TV audience for the Grammy show underscores this shift. In 2021, viewership for the ceremony collapsed 53 percent from the previous year—from 18.7 million to 8.8 million. It was the least-watched Grammy broadcast of all time. Even the core audience for new music couldn’t be bothered—about 98 percent of people ages 18 to 49 had something better to do than watch the biggest music celebration of the year.

A decade ago, 40 million people watched the Grammy Awards. That’s a meaningful audience, but now the devoted fans of this event are starting to resemble a tiny subculture. More people pay attention to streams of video games on Twitch (which now gets 30 million daily visitors) or the latest reality-TV show. In fact, musicians would probably do better getting placement in Fortnite than signing a record deal in 2022. At least they would have access to a growing demographic.

More people watch the Great British Bake Off than the Grammy Awards
Source: Nielsen/Media Reports
Some would like to believe that this trend is just a short-term blip, perhaps caused by the pandemic. When clubs open up again, and DJs start spinning new records at parties, the world will return to normal, or so we’re told. The hottest songs will again be the newest songs. I’m not so optimistic.

A series of unfortunate events are conspiring to marginalize new music. The pandemic is one of these ugly facts, but hardly the only contributor to the growing crisis.

Consider these other trends:

  • The leading area of investment in the music business is old songs. Investment firms are getting into bidding wars to buy publishing catalogs from aging rock and pop stars.
  • The song catalogs in most demand are by musicians who are in their 70s or 80s (Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Bruce Springsteen) or already dead (David Bowie, James Brown).
  • Even major record labels are participating in the rush to old music: Universal Music, Sony Music, Warner Music, and others are buying up publishing catalogs and investing huge sums in old tunes. In a previous time, that money would have been used to launch new artists.
  • The best-selling physical format in music is the vinyl LP, which is more than 70 years old. I’ve seen no signs that the record labels are investing in a newer, better alternative—because, here too, old is viewed as superior to new.
  • In fact, record labels—once a source of innovation in consumer products—don’t spend any money on research and development to revitalize their business, although every other industry looks to innovation for growth and consumer excitement.
  • Record stores are caught up in the same time warp. In an earlier era, they aggressively marketed new music, but now they make more money from vinyl reissues and used LPs.
  • Radio stations are contributing to the stagnation, putting fewer new songs into their rotation, or—judging by the offerings on my satellite-radio lineup—completely ignoring new music in favor of old hits.
  • When a new song overcomes these obstacles and actually becomes a hit, the risk of copyright lawsuits is greater than ever before. The risks have increased enormously since the “Blurred Lines” jury decision of 2015, and the result is that additional cash gets transferred from today’s musicians to old (or deceased) artists.
  • Adding to the nightmare, dead musicians are now coming back to life in virtual form—via holograms and “deepfake” music—making it all the harder for young, living artists to compete in the marketplace.
As record labels lose interest in new music, emerging performers desperately search for other ways to get exposure. They hope to place their self-produced tracks on a curated streaming playlist, or license their songs for use in advertising or the closing credits of a TV show. Those options might generate some royalty income, but they do little to build name recognition. You might hear a cool song on a TV commercial, but do you even know the name of the artist? You love your workout playlist at the health club, but how many song titles and band names do you remember? You stream a Spotify new-music playlist in the background while you work, but did you bother to learn who’s singing the songs?

Decades ago, the composer Erik Satie warned of the arrival of “furniture music,” a kind of song that would blend seamlessly into the background of our lives. His vision seems closer to reality than ever.

Some people—especially Baby Boomers—tell me that this decline in the popularity of new music is simply the result of lousy new songs. Music used to be better, or so they say. The old songs had better melodies, more interesting harmonies, and demonstrated genuine musicianship, not just software loops, Auto-Tuned vocals, and regurgitated samples.

There will never be another Sondheim, they tell me. Or Joni Mitchell. Or Bob Dylan. Or Cole Porter. Or Brian Wilson. I almost expect these doomsayers to break out in a stirring rendition of “Old Time Rock and Roll,” much like Tom Cruise in his underpants.

Just take those old records off the shelf

I’ll sit and listen to ’em by myself …


I can understand the frustrations of music lovers who get no satisfaction from current mainstream songs, though they try and they try. I also lament the lack of imagination on many modern hits. But I disagree with my Boomer friends’ larger verdict. I listen to two to three hours of new music every day, and I know that plenty of exceptional young musicians are out there trying to make it. They exist. But the music industry has lost its ability to discover and nurture their talents.

List of Song or Recording Rights Sold Since 2019

Music-industry bigwigs have plenty of excuses for their inability to discover and adequately promote great new artists. The fear of copyright lawsuits has made many in the industry deathly afraid of listening to unsolicited demo recordings. If you hear a demo today, you might get sued for stealing its melody—or maybe just its rhythmic groove—five years from now. Try mailing a demo to a label or producer, and watch it return unopened.

The people whose livelihood depends on discovering new musical talent face legal risks if they take their job seriously. That’s only one of the deleterious results of the music industry’s overreliance on lawyers and litigation, a hard-ass approach they once hoped would cure all their problems, but now does more harm than good. Everybody suffers in this litigious environment except for the partners at the entertainment-law firms, who enjoy the abundant fruits of all these lawsuits and legal threats.

The problem goes deeper than just copyright concerns. The people running the music industry have lost confidence in new music. They won’t admit it publicly—that would be like the priests of Jupiter and Apollo in ancient Rome admitting that their gods are dead. Even if they know it’s true, their job titles won’t allow such a humble and abject confession. Yet that is exactly what’s happening. The moguls have lost their faith in the redemptive and life-changing power of new music. How sad is that? Of course, the decision makers need to pretend that they still believe in the future of their business, and want to discover the next revolutionary talent. But that’s not what they really think. Their actions speak much louder than their empty words.

In fact, nothing is less interesting to music executives than a completely radical new kind of music. Who can blame them for feeling this way? The radio stations will play only songs that fit the dominant formulas, which haven’t changed much in decades. The algorithms curating so much of our new music are even worse. Music algorithms are designed to be feedback loops, ensuring that the promoted new songs are virtually identical to your favorite old songs. Anything that genuinely breaks the mold is excluded from consideration almost as a rule. That’s actually how the current system has been designed to work.

Even the music genres famous for shaking up the world—rock or jazz or hip-hop—face this same deadening industry mindset. I love jazz, but many of the radio stations focused on that genre play songs that sound almost the same as what they featured 10 or 20 years ago. In many instances, they actually are the same songs.

This state of affairs is not inevitable. A lot of musicians around the world—especially in Los Angeles and London—are conducting a bold dialogue between jazz and other contemporary styles. They are even bringing jazz back as dance music. But the songs they release sound dangerously different from older jazz, and are thus excluded from many radio stations for that same reason. The very boldness with which they embrace the future becomes the reason they get rejected by the gatekeepers.

A country record needs to sound a certain way to get played on most country radio stations or playlists, and the sound those DJs and algorithms are looking for dates back to the prior century. And don’t even get me started on the classical-music industry, which works hard to avoid showcasing the creativity of the current generation. We are living in an amazing era of classical composition, with one tiny problem: The institutions controlling the genre don’t want you to hear it.

The problem isn’t a lack of good new music. It’s an institutional failure to discover and nurture it.

I learned the danger of excessive caution long ago, when I consulted for huge Fortune 500 companies. The single biggest problem I encountered—shared by virtually every large company I analyzed—was investing too much of their time and money into defending old ways of doing business, rather than building new ones. We even had a proprietary tool for quantifying this misallocation of resources that spelled out the mistakes in precise dollars and cents.

Senior management hated hearing this, and always insisted that defending the old business units was their safest bet. After I encountered this embedded mindset again and again and saw its consequences, I reached the painful conclusion that the safest path is usually the most dangerous. If you pursue a strategy—whether in business or your personal life—that avoids all risk, you might flourish in the short run, but you flounder over the long term. That’s what is now happening in the music business.

Even so, I refuse to accept that we are in some grim endgame, witnessing the death throes of new music. And I say that because I know how much people crave something that sounds fresh and exciting and different. If they don’t find it from a major record label or algorithm-driven playlist, they will find it somewhere else. Songs can go viral nowadays without the entertainment industry even noticing until it has already happened. That will be how this story ends: not with the marginalization of new music, but with something radical emerging from an unexpected place.

The apparent dead ends of the past were circumvented the same way. Music-company execs in 1955 had no idea that rock and roll would soon sweep away everything in its path. When Elvis took over the culture—coming from the poorest state in America, lowly Mississippi—they were more shocked than anybody. It happened again the following decade, with the arrival of the British Invasion from lowly Liverpool (again, a working-class place, unnoticed by the entertainment industry). And it happened again when hip-hop, a true grassroots movement that didn’t give a damn how the close-minded CEOs of Sony or Universal viewed the marketplace, emerged from the Bronx and South Central and other impoverished neighborhoods.

If we had the time, I would tell you more about how the same thing has always happened. The troubadours of the 11th century, Sappho, the lyric singers of ancient Greece, and the artisan performers of the Middle Kingdom in ancient Egypt transformed their own cultures in a similar way. Musical revolutions come from the bottom up, not the top down. The CEOs are the last to know. That’s what gives me solace. New music always arises in the least expected place, and when the power brokers aren’t even paying attention. It will happen again. It certainly needs to. The decision makers controlling our music institutions have lost the thread. We’re lucky that the music is too powerful for them to kill.

Wrong headline. If anything, the suits are killing it, not the old music, though possibly modern music is just not as good.
Not having tv shows like Countdown and the various 80s shows doesn't help. I guess there is Rage for the night owls.
 
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Wrong headline. If anything, the suits are killing it, not the old music, though possibly modern music is just not as good.
Not having tv shows like Countdown and the various 80s shows doesn't help. I guess there is Rage for the night owls.
Why do you need to see music on a screen to validate it?

Isn't hearing it enough?
 
Why so you need to see music on a screen to validate it?

Isn't hearing it enough?
Not speaking for myself there but I think those shows did a lot to promote new music in their days
 
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Why do you need to see music on a screen to validate it?

Isn't hearing it enough?

Shows like countdown, Video Hits and MTV where pivotal to the growth and promotion of artists and genres back in the 70's through to the late 90's a lot of the time these shows especially MTV where first to promote any new singles or albums along with the videos.
 
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Shows like countdown, Video Hits and MTV where pivotal to the growth and promotion of artists and genres back in the 70's through to the late 90's a lot of the time these shows especially MTV where first to promote any new singles or albums along with the videos.
Oh yeah, I've got no doubt about that, I lived through it. They were the the times - it was actually quite restrictive.

But in this day and age of essentially free and easy access to pretty much everything that is being or has ever been released, the absence of TV shows for music videos shouldn't really cut it as a pivotal reason for people to stop listening to new music.

These online services even run algorithms to tailor an individual's exposure, and there's hardly a single person (under the age of 60 at least) who doesn't have some fancy earbuds or headphones of some kind, so you hardly ever need to be deprived of personal music. It has never been easier to listen to quality music.
 
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Oh yeah, I've got no doubt about that, I lived through it. They were the the times - it was actually quite restrictive.

But in this day and age of essentially free and easy access to pretty much everything that is being or has ever been released, the absence of TV shows for music videos shouldn't really cut it as a pivotal reason for people to stop listening to new music.

These online services even run algorithms to tailor an individual's exposure, and there's hardly a single person (under the age of 60 at least) who doesn't have some fancy earbuds or headphones of some kind, so you hardly ever need to be deprived of personal music. It has never been easier to listen to quality music.

I think that is actually contributing to the problem, there is no waiting to hear or see the next big single or album to come out from your favorite artists its just there and you stream it or go on YouTube and watch it, The anticipation of waiting is gone! Having all the music in the world exposed to you at a click of a button can also be very overwhelming. Also like Fossie 32 mentioned in his post above modern music today just isn't that good or engaging enough to go back to and listen.
 
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So many issues...

Genres have been largely obliterated. People for the most part, listen to "play lists" now.
With 100,000 original songs uploaded to the internet DAILY, no one can or does really follow anything anymore.
There will never be conditions for another Nirvana type event.
Back in the 70's-90's, you had music, TV and basic video games. That was it! Or read a book.
Music now is just one of a million entertainment options available.
And on top of all that, music has been entirely and wholly dismissed as a something you pay for.
Most people, too many anyway, now see music as free, and its their right to have it for free!
I will get howled down for this, but there is something very wrong with people who go around calling themselves musicians or "producers", yet can not sing a note, play a single instrument, or construct a chord, chord progression, or know any theory whatsoever. That leads to an absolute avalanche of utter dreck both in the mainstream, and hell, wherever you care to look really.
Then you have what A.I is going to do the creative process and......
music is in an extremely dire and poor position, more so than any other time in its history.
Yes there will always be talented bands/performers, yes you will be able to buy their music and see them live...
But this solves precisely none of this, and its going to get worse.
The talented people that have honed their craft, the majority wont give a s**t about. They will be swamped by the "producer" masses.
As with most of the other facets of humanity, just hold on and right it to the deadly end.
Its all downhill from here.
 
So many issues...

Genres have been largely obliterated. People for the most part, listen to "play lists" now.
With 100,000 original songs uploaded to the internet DAILY, no one can or does really follow anything anymore.
There will never be conditions for another Nirvana type event.
Back in the 70's-90's, you had music, TV and basic video games. That was it! Or read a book.
Music now is just one of a million entertainment options available.
And on top of all that, music has been entirely and wholly dismissed as a something you pay for.
Most people, too many anyway, now see music as free, and its their right to have it for free!
I will get howled down for this, but there is something very wrong with people who go around calling themselves musicians or "producers", yet can not sing a note, play a single instrument, or construct a chord, chord progression, or know any theory whatsoever. That leads to an absolute avalanche of utter dreck both in the mainstream, and hell, wherever you care to look really.
Then you have what A.I is going to do the creative process and......
music is in an extremely dire and poor position, more so than any other time in its history.
Yes there will always be talented bands/performers, yes you will be able to buy their music and see them live...
But this solves precisely none of this, and its going to get worse.
The talented people that have honed their craft, the majority wont give a s**t about. They will be swamped by the "producer" masses.
As with most of the other facets of humanity, just hold on and right it to the deadly end.
Its all downhill from here.
THIS!!!!^

Sad but true. At least I had the experience of waiting for an album to be released, checking the cover art and sleeve notes, not really getting the music, only to persist and said album becoming an all time classic, to be played for decades!

Good times!
 
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