Autopsy Is our star studded Midfield overrated?

[blaze036]

This thread has largely been inspired by Mike Sheahans top 50, but also general bigfooty consensus around the ability of our midfield. According to Mike, and I would suggest nearly every Collingwood supporter here, we have 2 midfielders in the top 10 players in the competition (Swan #6 Pendlebury #4).

http://www.news.com.au/sport2/afl/mikes-top-50-2014/10-1

Combine 2 of the best 6 players in the GAME with other midfield stars like Ball Beams Sidebottom and honest toilers like Blair Thomas Macaffer ect, it would be reasonable to assume we would have at least a top 4, or even top 2 midfield in the game. The stats however, beg to disagree.

Here are some damning statistics from 2013
We were:

14th in the AFL in Clearances
14th in Centre Clearances
12th in Stoppages
11th in Contested Possessions.

Now is it completely true that stats don't always tell the whole story, and our midfielders have had to battle with sub-par ruckwork for a few years, but is it possible we really overrate our midfield?

We are the number #1 team in the AFL for possessions, yet really poor at getting contested ball. Based on these stats it seems to spell out, yes, our midfield is quiet overrated, and overrated because they regularly get tonnes of "cheap" uncontested football, which look fantastic on paper but don't actually help the team that much.

Now I don't like to say any of our players are overrated, but it is hard to argue with these damning stats. So is our midfield not as good as we like to think?




Btw don't bite my head off

 

[TradeDraft]

Well Adding Adams will help our Stoppage/Clearance Game

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

These stats were based on last year and they are mostly inside mid stats. We were really missing inside mids last year. Ball was out for a chunk of the season and so was beams. These two are probably out two most important inside mids. I also believe that the recruitment of Adams and hopefully the continued development of Thomas will also help with our clearance work this year.

 

[eddiebankbalance]

Oxymoron, please try again.

 

[rustyg70]

I don't think it's over rated as far as personal in there, but as far as the stats go, Yes it is.
Having a fully fit Beams and Ball back at the coal face will definately help us though.
We do still lack a good ruckman.
Grundy shows promise, and a heap of it, but I would love to have a seasoned ruck to compliment our mids atm.

 

[blaze036]

These stats were based on last year and they are mostly inside mid stats. We were really missing inside mids last year. Ball was out for a chunk of the season and so was beams. These two are probably out two most important inside mids. I also believe that the recruitment of Adams and hopefully the continued development of Thomas will also help with our clearance work this year.

To be in the best handful of midfielders in the game you should logically be able to play inside and outside to a high level, not rely on getting all your touches on the outside

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

To be in the best handful of midfielders in the same you should logically be able to play inside and outside to a high level, not rely on getting all your touches on the outside

Any team that loses two of its top 4 midfielders is going to struggle. Especially with a struggling injured ruckman like Jolly. If we end up with similar stats this year then that would be a worry. I have to admit that preseason we haven't looked great.

 

[Ketchup]

There's gonna be so much hate on this thread. BUT. On paper we have the best midfield in the comp. But we all know footy is played on paper, as a collective unit we are firmly behind Hawthorn, Sydney, Fremantle, Geelong's brigade. I'd back us against all the other midfields in the comp however. It hasn't helped last season we were without Jolly, Beams and Ball for majority of the year. Having a competent ruckman and fit players should bump us up considerably in those statistics.

 

[blaze036]

There's gonna be so much hate on this thread. BUT. On paper we have the best midfield in the comp. But we all know footy is played on paper, as a collective unit we are firmly behind Hawthorn, Sydney, Fremantle, Geelong's brigade. I'd back us against all the other midfields in the comp however. It hasn't helped last season we were without Jolly, Beams and Ball for majority of the year. Having a competent ruckman and fit players should bump us up considerably in those statistics.

I think that's the prevailing attitude which highly overrates us.

In reality we have done nothing better than the Geelong/Hawthorn midfield for years (other than uncontested possession) yet so many people still rate us as having a better midfield than them despite years of proven performance otherwise.

 

[boxy99]

Looking at the stats you would say yes! But our best midfield haven't played a lot together there always injured

 

[mattys123]

I don't think it's over rated as far as personal in there, but as far as the stats go, Yes it is.
Having a fully fit Beams and Ball back at the coal face will definately help us though.
We do still lack a good ruckman.
Grundy shows promise, and a heap of it, but I would love to have a seasoned ruck to compliment our mids atm.

This, we were 18th for hitouts last year, DEAD LAST IN THE AFL.

That has to hurt your midfield no matter how good it is.

Add a fit Beams, a fit Ball (last year was tough coming off an ACL), Kennedy and Adams (2 new additions) and it will improve, but ultimately stats once again can be used to prove just about any theory.

We finished 6th after the home and away rounds yet apparently got smashed in the area that is so important, clearances and contested possessions, how does that work?

 

[Smoocher]

This thread has largely been inspired by Mike Sheahans top 50, but also general bigfooty consensus around the ability of our midfield. According to Mike, and I would suggest nearly every Collingwood supporter here, we have 2 midfielders in the top 10 players in the competition (Swan #6 Pendlebury #4).

http://www.news.com.au/sport2/afl/mikes-top-50-2014/10-1

Combine 2 of the best 6 players in the GAME with other midfield stars like Ball Beams Sidebottom and honest toilers like Blair Thomas Macaffer ect, it would be reasonable to assume we would have at least a top 4, or even top 2 midfield in the game. The stats however, beg to disagree.

Here are some damning statistics from 2013
We were:

14th in the AFL in Clearances
14th in Centre Clearances
12th in Stoppages
11th in Contested Possessions.

Now is it completely true that stats don't always tell the whole story, and our midfielders have had to battle with sub-par ruckwork for a few years, but is it possible we really overrate our midfield?

We are the number #1 team in the AFL for possessions, yet really poor at getting contested ball. Based on these stats it seems to spell out, yes, our midfield is quiet overrated, and overrated because they regularly get tonnes of "cheap" uncontested football", which look fantastic on paper but don't actually help the team that much.

Now I don't like to say any of our players are overrated, but it is hard to argue with these damning stats. So is our midfield not as good as we like to think?




Btw don't bite my head off

Well written. Totally agree with your summation and what you are getting at. Individually you have some super stars in that midfield but for some reason it doesn't gel together on the ground. Not being critical so please don't attack me. Just agreeing with you.

 

[jmac70]

The reality is that the best teams have 10+ quality players that rotate through the midfield. We don't bat that deap at the moment but that could change in a hurry.

 

[soreplums]

Also a bit one dimensional speed wise. We lack real speed through the guts and out wide and also need our mids to be more damaging with their foot skills to break games open.

Swan, Pendle, ball, beams, Sidey can all win one on ones, but just don't seem to always "click" when most needed. If we win more clearances with Witts rucking, then we need find a way to play both him and grundy in the same team.

 

[frizzle]

How many games has Pendles, Ball, Swan Beams & even Dale Thomas played together over the last year & a half.
Not many I'll bet.We were missing Ball for half the year, Beams for most of the year & Thomas for damn near all the year.
Adams will replace Thomas in the rotation & with a bit of luck the midfield can play more games together. I guarantee you the stats will look much different then as far as clearances & contested possessions go.

 

[Lockyer24]

The answer lies in how good they are without the ball. I do have high hopes though that with centre bounces/stoppage combos of Adams/Pendles/Beams/Ball this year we will have a lot more grunt.

 

[Scodog10]

It's worth noting that of our past 48 matches we've had our A team (Pendles, Swan, Beams and Ball) available on just 8 occasions.

That to me straight off says that we've lacked continuity through the middle. Lack of continuity results in a lack of predictability to one another. When you aren't predictable to one another it can be very difficult to get midfield structures spot on.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because I've never personally seen a core midfield unit so disrupted over a 2 year period and manage a 65% win rate. Think back to when the Lions were so dominant and how they would have gone if they had Lappin, Voss, Black and Akermanis together as a group once every six matches with a number of those short 2 of them.

Let's see how things are travelling 6 weeks into the season before analyzing it too hard. Especially considering we're operating under a more experienced and accomplished midfield coach in 2014.

 

[mike123]

No we just don't have a great Ruckman to compliment it.

 

[medhurstISGOD]

Looking at clearance stats isn't a good way to judge midfields IMO

Just look at round 19 this year vs Essendon. Dyson Heppell had the most clearances for the game yet had very little impact, most of his clearances were ineffective. Essendon won the clearance and the centre clearance stats comfortably, as well as the stoppage stat (whatever that is) yet Collingwood won the Disposal, Inside 50 and of course the game comfortably.

Not to mention the fact that West Coast beat Collingwood in all 4 stats mentioned in the OP, yet are considered to be one of the worst midfields in the league.

I think the best stat to judge midfield dominance is Inside 50s. Looking at the inside 50 ladder (we were 3rd) for last year looks much closer to an accurate ranking of midfields than the clearance ladder, or the CC, CP and stoppages ladder.

So to answer the OPs question, not really.

 

[Bring_Back_Brad]

Don't forget Freeman!
He's going to be awesome.

 

[Paddywhackers]

Our midfield should greatly improve this year.

Pendles, Beams, Swan, Sidebottom, Adams, Ball, Thomas it aint going to be too bad at all. I don't think there is a midfield in the comp that springs to mind that is much better on paper.

Can't go by much more then paper with this group as has been explained ad nauseum in this thread, due to the lack of continuity of the playing group for one reason or another.

I think we will be alright.

 

[DERKADERRR]

I don't think our midfield in terms of personnel is a problem, as has been brought up beforehand we were last in total hitouts in 2013. This year in order for our midfield to thrive I feel we have to play 2 ruckmen (Grundy and Witts) who share the ruck load equally (or 60/40). We can't expect grundy in his second year (and with his tank not up to standard yet) to improve that stat because he will just be so burnt out by the end of the game. This could also be very good for Grundy's forward development as well because he gets more time up forward.


The way we have been set up in our ruck as we all know is a follows; One ruckman, one forward/ruck who pinch hits for 15% of the game. If we change that and play White as the second forward (he thrived in that role once Reid went off), throw Reid down back as the third tall/ loose defender and put Witts in the team whose skills as a forward I actually rated fairly highly in both the VFL and AFL, and his ruck work (according to reports from the last practice match) being very good, then it could well improve many areas of our team. More hitouts leads to more chance of them being to the favour of our mids which leads to more clearances, and more clearances can lead to more inside 50 entries. In our backline it means we have our all australian CHB playing the role which he suits the best, which probably leads to more intercept marks, more spoils and more effective rebound 50's (Reid's field kicking being very effective on his day IMO).


Bucks needs to put faith in Witts to be able to step up and White to be able to play well enough as the second tall to be a good enough to demand attention from opposition defenders.

If we have a bolster our Rucks and improve our defence with the addition of Reid then the midfield and forwardline will gain from it as well.

Please reply with any criticisms or critiques

 

[Old Spice]

I think it's a good talking point. We get goals and chains of possession from general play, but you would prefer to get it at the source.

Is it that we are so defensively minded at stop-set plays that we benefit from opposition kicks under pressure?

Can I also ask where these stats are taken from and what their definition is?

 

[Old Spice]

It would be interesting also to know how the stats aligned with 2013 rucks: Jolly, Hudson, Lynch, Witts and Grundy.

 

[mike123]

With our midfield Collingwood should use 2 ruckman and play stoppage footy. Our mids Beams Ball and Adams love the contest with them feeding it out to Swan and Pendlebury we would be almost unstoppable. We should also try to third man up with our second ruck when we can Essondon and Geelong were good at this.