Is sandilands over rated?

UFO Tatsu

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#51
That would be silly, you'd play an extra mid at the bounce :)

--

If we don't have an even ruck contest our structure at the stoppage is dictated by the opposition starting points, because they will know where the ball will go and we will be chasing them to that spot.
our mids are almost as tall as rucks ;)
 

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UFO Tatsu

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#52
Pretty obviously that hitouts have an extremely low correlation with winning. Half as strong as the next weakest stats (tackles/1%ers/stoppage clearances).

The interesting thing is how much more strongly kick differential correlates than handball differential. Obviously both are a measure of possession but there's a big difference between having more handballs than your opponent and having more kicks.
it will be interesting to find out the correlation values for hitout to advantage
 

pokerspiv

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#53
in that case, we might as well delist all our ruckmen, save the salary cap and get dawson to ruck the whole game
My point wasn't that ruckmen are useless, it was that their work around the ground is more influential than the number of hitouts they win.
 
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strobe00

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#54
I'd love to have gotten a hold of really useful data like Hits to Advantage and Effective Kicks, but they don't give that stuff away for free. Winning taps to advantage (and avoiding taps to oppo advantage) is where the ruckmen really have an impact on the game. Just winning the hitout isn't enough.

Although it's a two way street... if the mids aren't reading the tap well enough and are allowing their opposition to cut in front of them to take the ball, then that ain't the ruckman's fault.

EDIT: Just saw your post UFO Tatsu. Yep, would love to get those stats. But they don't give them out.
 

pokerspiv

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#55
Although it's a two way street... if the mids aren't reading the tap well enough and are allowing their opposition to cut in front of them to take the ball, then that ain't the ruckman's fault.
.
Yeah agreed. Hitouts to advantage have to be some combination of the skill of ruckmen and mids combined.
 

smokingjacket

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#57
Overall hit outs may be a useless stat, this isn't news, hit outs to advantage and a ability to get clean, quick clearances from the centre are massive in congested modern footy. Or at least to stop the opposing team being able to do it. Irregardless of all that, Sandi has for a long time also been one of our best clearance players using his big body to block for our mids and getting the ball himself when it's on the ground. That's not including his importance to our structure when kicking long out of defence to a contest. Last year we looked really average for a while when both Sandi and Fyfe we're out as we lacked contested marking options on the defensive wings. The Geelong game in particular repeat entries were a joke and the ball barely passed our own half way line for large chunks of the match. So let's say even hypothetically that Sandilands influence through hit outs are useless...he's still such a beast around the ground that I'm bemused how his value to a team could even be up for debate.
 

pokerspiv

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#58
So let's say even hypothetically that Sandilands influence through hit outs are useless...he's still such a beast around the ground that I'm bemused how his value to a team could even be up for debate.
Agree 100%, as does everybody else. Nobody here debating his value.
 

Tayl0r

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Moderator #59
I'd like to see the ranking for hitouts to score stats just so someone like Lynch features strongly as I expect part time talls to take the ruck in the forward fifty.
 

smokingjacket

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#60
Agree 100%, as does everybody else. Nobody here debating his value.
Yeah that's fine I didn't mean for it come out like anyone on here was questioning his value, but Leigh Matthews has said that Sandilands is the most overrated player in the competition because his hit outs mean nothing. Well even if that is true, it still fails to take in to account every other thing he has in his arsenal to make Fremantle a dominate side, whether he's able to get as many uncontested possessions as Flappybird or not.
 

masai

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#61
wehavethepassion has always had great judgement and always believes what he reads in the paper.

I can remember having to vigorously defend (with a lot of help from masai ) the big fella in the early days against many attacks from our own. +

Good thing We didn't trade or delist him I reckon. :)
Over-rated ?, is Leigh talking about him as a Top 10 player ?. All coaches seem to mention Sandi as the player they must "tag", that says alot. Stats don't give you the full story.

Look, Leigh is allowed his opinion, he is one media person who could really play the game. Please note :- Mooney, Darcy & Ed.

I have backed Sandi for many seasons, because it is amazing how having a big bodied player can make other team mates "grow an inch". No, he is no enforcer, but he provides alot of "unpraised" grunt, by breaking and moving ( rugby scrum ) packs.

From the 3 games this season, I have felt he is in darn good form. He seems to be taking more marks, getting his bulk into the base of packs, and is now actually presenting up forward.

It's those bloody lazy rovers fault, typical dwarve's, they never lift their weight !!!!.
 

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masai

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#62
However there are other tap Ruckmen who do far less around the ground who the media have a love affair for and are apparently going to be offered $1 Million per annum that should be considered even more over rated given how little they do around the ground.[/quote said:
Could you make it more obvious to whom you are referring ? ...................................... I'm just going outside to plant a palm tree.
 

Righteo

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#63
OP can't be a Freo supporter surely? What else does he do? ******* serious?

Probably has 5 votes from his first 3 games, but when Fyfe and Barlow are missing and Mundy is tagged out of a game it's a little harsh having a go at him.
 

CakeEater

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#64
The problem as I saw it, was that Mitchell, Lewis et all would have spent a lot more time playing in the same game as Sandi so would have been exposed to Sandi's hitting zones, more often than our inexperienced midfielders such as Sheridan, Neale who have only practised at training with him and havent played significant minutes in a game with him.
 

jusjoshin

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#65
I'd like to see Sandi smash the ball more. Especially in the forward 50, create a real "chaos ball" effect. He can fist the ball well over 20m - we could conceivably just have one or two at his feet and set up our ball winners 20m down the field. Even if we don't do it every time, we could do it a few times when the opposition is crowding his drop zone.
 

Sman-21

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#66
How many games of Sandilands has Matthews actually seen?
Maybe 5 a year?

I think Sandis tapwork is overrated.
His around the ground work is massively underrated.
Remember over the years he was our main target from kick ins and he would take strong pack marks.
Sometimes tapped it over his head for smalls to run onto resulting in goals.
If defenders didn't get away with murder when he was up forward, he would take a lot more marks.

Still not a fan of Sandis actual tapwork but he makes up for that by being very helpful around the ground(being a target/get out of jail option) and atleast making sure opposing ruckmen have little to no influence.
Watch the difference closely in tapwork when Hannath/Clarke are in the ruck.
they don't win as many but their taps are a lot better directed.
So whats more valueable a ruckmen winning 50% of taps or a ruckmen winning around 75%.
that dominance puts opposition mids on the defensive instead of setting up plays and getting quick easy clearances.
 

scon

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#67
The ratings from the other club's current coaches would be the real story.Brendan McCartney from tonight's On the Couch rated him top 10 in the competition.
But really just a bit of sensationalist bullshit from Leigh and the OP.
 

PurpleEyes

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#68
Lethal has long had a love for Cox and little support for Sandilands. Lethals statement strangely was timed when a popular Cox was playing his record breaking game for the Eagles. That makes good click bait and media circulation.

Lethal bases his overrated statement on Freo losing clearances in their past 4 matches and he says Freo always loses the clearances, then he talks of Cox being a great ruckman.

Well, the problem with that statement is that Sandilands has played 12 full games in 2013 and 2014. In those, Freo have won the clearances 6 times, equal once and lost the clearances 5 times and had a total 20 something more clearances than their opposition. Meanwhile, in Cox's last 12 full games, West Coast have won the clearances 3 times, equal once, lost 8 times and had a total 20 something less than their opposition.
So Leigh's own reasons for making the statement are wrong. Never mind Sandilands disposal effectiveness and contested marks numbers, averaging more Brownlow votes per game and being voted 4th in 2010 (by AFL players) for the Leigh Matthews Trophy.
Leigh's statement is a shocker and has nothing backing it other than his opinion and his bonus pay.
 

Tazmania

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#69
Heard Lloyd on 3aw last night talking about this. As he said any team would sign sandilands immediately. He also raised nicnat and his lack of work around the ground and that the media hypes him up far more than Sandi... and therefore is the most over rated player in the comp by far.
 

Seppo

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#70
Heard Lloyd on 3aw last night talking about this. As he said any team would sign sandilands immediately. He also raised nicnat and his lack of work around the ground and that the media hypes him up far more than Sandi... and therefore is the most over rated player in the comp by far.
But did he mention anything about the work he does off the field with mentoring and player support via text?

I didn't see Sandilands sending a text to Murray Newman to get his career back on track.... :rolleyes:
 

strobe00

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#72
Heard Lloyd on 3aw last night talking about this. As he said any team would sign sandilands immediately. He also raised nicnat and his lack of work around the ground and that the media hypes him up far more than Sandi... and therefore is the most over rated player in the comp by far.
For a second I thought you were talking about one of our Lloyds.
 

DMan 11

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#74
How many games of Sandilands has Matthews actually seen?
Maybe 5 a year?

I think Sandis tapwork is overrated.
His around the ground work is massively underrated.
Remember over the years he was our main target from kick ins and he would take strong pack marks.
Sometimes tapped it over his head for smalls to run onto resulting in goals.
If defenders didn't get away with murder when he was up forward, he would take a lot more marks.

Still not a fan of Sandis actual tapwork but he makes up for that by being very helpful around the ground(being a target/get out of jail option) and atleast making sure opposing ruckmen have little to no influence.
Watch the difference closely in tapwork when Hannath/Clarke are in the ruck.
they don't win as many but their taps are a lot better directed.
So whats more valueable a ruckmen winning 50% of taps or a ruckmen winning around 75%.
that dominance puts opposition mids on the defensive instead of setting up plays and getting quick easy clearances.

I call hogwash...

Sandi's tapwork is sublime mate, you may be a little influenced in your statement by the fact that opposition mids and coaches spend weeks examining his work in such detail they are able to plan and shark them more than any other ruckmen - because he wins more taps than any other ruckman.....

You can't blame sandi for the fact that other players look at and work off his taps...that's pretty harsh. The majority of his taps are to our guys but opposition players either hold off sharking the tap and tackle immediately to create spillage or just attempt to shark them - either way it's a clear indication he is winning taps and they are going to the places he is attempting to hit them to ( rucking 101 ) calling sandi out for being innefective with what happens once he has tapped it is like saying Mundy is sh*t at kicking goals after delivering a pass to Pav when pav then misses the set shot...it's after the fact

Your arguement that Hannath has the ability to better direct ruck taps sums up the strength of your post...

Give me a ruckmen who dominates hitout numbers anyday, and give me sandi anyday
 

Sman-21

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#75
In my post I said he is more valuable because he wins over 75% of the taps and completely stops the opposition from even thinking of trying set plays.
All they can do is try to stop his influence.
His actual taps and hitouts to advantage stats effectiveness is overrated.
Watch the games again paying close attention to taps/direction.
Hannath taps it right into the hands of players, taps it into better more open areas to freo players advantage.
However because he cant be guaranteed to win more than 50% of taps it means other ruck can compete against him and look to do set plays etc.

I completely understand why his taps aren't effective.
Its because other rucks are just trying to stop him barely even trying to win the taps.

So I stand by what I said.
His tapwork and hitout to advantage stats are overrated when talking about him.
His ability around the ground to give us targets, his ability to completely dominate opposing ruckman stopping them from running set plays etc is his real value and massively underrated.

I would choose Sandi everyday also but I will never rave on about his hitouts or hitouts to advantage numbers because most the time nothing comes from them.
So his value isn't his actual tapwork its his ability to dominate and not let other ruck get taps.
 
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