Autopsy Is the 3rd tall forward becoming redundant?

[Sweet Jesus]

'Were guaranteed ' then ,thanks Mr Pedantic.

So three players retire - after being disappointing, to varying degrees - and that proves their position is now obsolete?

Two of them were ruck-forwards - a position which is actually more in vogue than ever given clubs don't like to play two specialist ruckmen. And Griffiths was just a spud from day one.

Btw ,West Coast need some decent midfielders badly. Gaffs very good but rest aren't elite.

I hadn't noticed this until now. Razor-sharp stuff.

I'm still trying to figure out what happened to Humpty Dumpty. Last I heard, he was sitting on a wall. But then what happened? I can't figure it out. Can you help me? I need your skills of detection.

 

[Socrates2]

So three players retire - after being disappointing, to varying degrees - and that proves their position is now obsolete?

Two of them were ruck-forwards - a position which is actually more in vogue than ever given clubs don't like to play two specialist ruckmen. And Griffiths was just a spud from day one.

I hadn't noticed this until now. Razor-sharp stuff.

I'm still trying to figure out what happened to Humpty Dumpty. Last I heard, he was sitting on a wall. But then what happened? I can't figure it out. Can you help me? I need your skills of detection.

I'm saying those 3 players are decent 'role playing' players ,but that role may becoming redundant. You're saying they were always crappo players .

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I'm saying those 3 players are decent 'role playing' players ,but that role may becoming redundant.

And you'd be wrong on both counts.

You're saying they were always crappo players .

Griffiths was always crap. Vickery was crap for a long time. Tippett briefly flirted with not being crap but was still an expensive disappointment with a bad ankle.

It's got nothing to do with their position being obsolete. Every team in the comp would love a competent second ruck who's good for 30-40 goals while resting forward. But the players you've mentioned were well short of that.

 

[telsor]

Richmond played Caddy and Townsend later in the year - not necessarily as 'prop-and-mark' forwards, but definitely as targets for forward 50s. And each of them took a couple of marks.

Richmond had the 2nd highest average of Marks Inside 50 per game (Just behind Adelaide). Everyone talks about the small forwards tackling and crumbing, but they were just as useful at creating space and receiving a pass. If you are playing 1-on-1, it doesn't matter whether you are 4-foot tall or 7-foot. If you're opponent is the same height, well.........................

Eddie Betts took the 2nd most marks inside forward 50 for Adelaide. Fasolo took the same number of marks Inside 50 as Darcy Moore. Nat Fyfe took the most for Freo. Dangerfield took the same number as Hawkins. Toby Greene took more than Jeremy Cameron (same number of games).

A mark is a mark is a mark. A Mark inside 50 is incredibly valuable. But it doesn't matter if it's a huge pack mark, or a chest mark from a 15-metre chip. Make the space - get the mark.

You need to have a couple of targets you can bomb the ball to when there is no other option. But if you get your structures and spacing right, it doesn't mean he has to be 7-foot tall.

Also worth noting that Richmond only did that due to lack of options.

Griffiths got injured and we tried both Elton & Soldo to try and cover him (and gave both of them a decent stint) before giving up on them (Elton wasn't good enough, and Soldo was too raw to play Ruck, let alone cover a spot he hadn't really been training for).

Only after all these options were exhausted did we go for the small forward line with Caddy as the '2nd tall' (Townsend didn't really play as a tall forward, he just tagged the oppositions tall rebounding defender).

 

[cryptor]

Half of Hawthorn's forward line fit the "3rd tall" type. Clarko loves them because of their versatility. They can play as tall or small and are usually mobile enough to go up the ground and across half back. Gunston, Burton, Sicily, O'Brien, Heatherly, Glass and Ross. And it's likely due to fitting that "3rd tall" profile that Dallas Willsmore has avoided being completely delisted.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Every team in the comp would love a competent second ruck who's good for 30-40 goals while resting forward. But the players you've mentioned were well short of that.

Tippett wasn't.

Had the following seasons:

55 goals, 243 hitouts, 41 contested marks.

46 goals, 175 hitouts, 44 contested marks.

31 goals, 130 hitouts, 41 contested marks (from 18 games).

39 goals, 158 hitouts, 50 contested marks.

44 goals, 380 hitouts, 37 contested marks.

As well as other seasons of 35 goals (from just 12 games!) and 34 goals (from just 14 games), and another of 419 hitouts and 17 goals.

That's a hell of a lot better than "briefly flirting with not being crap", as you put it. Hence him getting as big a contract as he got. His career shits on Griffiths one in particular from a great height.

 

[Eagle Wrath]

And you'd be wrong on both counts.

Griffiths was always crap. Vickery was crap for a long time. Tippett briefly flirted with not being crap but was still an expensive disappointment with a bad ankle.

It's got nothing to do with their position being obsolete. Every team in the comp would love a competent second ruck who's good for 30-40 goals while resting forward. But the players you've mentioned were well short of that.

That has to be one of the nicest insults I've ever heard. Funny too.

 

[largebus]

Maybe they'll ban it like the third man up

 

[beema limapep]

The second tall is almost irrelevant! What do you mean 'third tall'?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Tippett wasn't.

Had the following seasons:

55 goals, 243 hitouts, 41 contested marks.

46 goals, 175 hitouts, 44 contested marks.

31 goals, 130 hitouts, 41 contested marks (from 18 games).

39 goals, 158 hitouts, 50 contested marks.

44 goals, 380 hitouts, 37 contested marks.

As well as other seasons of 35 goals (from just 12 games!) and 34 goals (from just 14 games), and another of 419 hitouts and 17 goals.

That's a hell of a lot better than "briefly flirting with not being crap", as you put it. Hence him getting as big a contract as he got. His career shits on Griffiths one in particular from a great height.

As I said, Tippett flirted with not being crap but was still an expensive disappointment with a bad ankle. Even if you're being glass-half-full about Tippett's performance at Sydney, he was forced out by injury. So that doesn't demonstrate that the position has become redundant or obsolete, does it? That's the point.

 

[aussierulesrules]

As I said, Tippett flirted with not being crap.

Yeah, you said it, but it's still garbage. Looking at those numbers he had 8 seasons that were well short of crap, and that's a long way from "flirting".

Whether he was value for money for Sydney is completely irrelevant to the argument I was making, and I suspect you know that, but are just trying to deflect attention away from how wrong you were.

 

[Pykie]

I think the 3rd tall has always been an iffy position.

Look at the likes Hamish McIntosh, Majak Daw, Jesse White, Leigh Brown, Mitch Clark...

Only Corey McKernan, Drew Petrie, Brad Ottens, Paddy Ryder and David Hale have really made a good career of it.

But we still have Joe Daniher, Peter Wright, Josh Jenkins and Levi Casboult doing it nicely.

When was Petrie ever a third tall?

Even McKernan played as the second tall forward at times in the forward line.

Are you sure your not mixing it up with the ruck/forward?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Yeah, you said it, but it's still garbage. Looking at those numbers he had 8 seasons that were well short of crap, and that's a long way from "flirting".

Whether he was value for money for Sydney is completely irrelevant to the argument I was making, and I suspect you know that, but are just trying to deflect attention away from how wrong you were.

Do you not understand the point I was making?

This thread is not about whether Tippett was good, bad or indifferent. It's about whether the retirements of these three players demonstrate that the position they played is now obsolete.

The fact is that all three were disappointing to varying degrees. And Tippett was ultimately forced out by injury. So when you consider all that, their retirements are not evidence of the position they played becoming obsolete. It's evidence of Griffiths and Vickery being disappointments; and of Tippett being admittedly less of a disappointment (albeit still grossly overpaid) but injured.

Your outrage on Tippett's behalf, while touching, is not particularly relevant. Come back to me when you've figured out how the dots connect.

 

[gavaniacono]

3rd tall forward?


Jumping Jack Flash.
Is a gas gas gas.

 

[Luv_our_club]

People seem confused about what defines a 3rd tall forward.

Some see it as including a resting ruckman, like Hale?

Others see it to include a legitimate 2nd best tall forward, like Darling?

Some see it as the third tallest forward in the F50?

Or see it as the 3rd most talented of the tall forwards?

Or..... you just know one when you see one.... like Gunston, who often plays as the first forward?



IMO......If you have one, a legitimately good one, then you can thank the footy gods and look forward to much success! But what are they?

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

McGovern wasnt redundant last year & won't be this year. Will show if you are a mobile third tall with X factor there is always a place in the side.

Hopefully he doesn't get injured when it really matters as we missed him.

 

[RUNVS]

It is really interesting as I think conventional wisdom is being pushed aside with talls now. In the past the general idea was to have two players at about 195cm or so, and then also have a 190cm player in the forward line, but now it is changing as that is seen as being top heavy. Now the ideal seems to be having a 200cm player in the forward line, along with a 195cm player, and then everyone else in the forward line is smaller and zippier.

The ruck is changing too, as it used to be a lot of teams would play 2 ruckmen in a match, but now playing 2 ruckmen is being seen as a liability, with now many teams playing 1 ruckman and the pinch hitter ruckman is now just a normal taller than average midfielder.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Hope not. We've got a few of them...

 

[The Swert]

When was Petrie ever a third tall?

Even McKernan played as the second tall forward at times in the forward line.

Are you sure your not mixing it up with the ruck/forward?

Ruck/forward describes the three retiring players mentioned in the OP.

A third forward IMHO is more like T Lynch (adel), Gunston, Silvagni, S Reid, Watts, Membrey etc

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

This guy...

 

[Socrates2]

And you'd be wrong on both counts.

Griffiths was always crap. Vickery was crap for a long time. Tippett briefly flirted with not being crap but was still an expensive disappointment with a bad ankle.

It's got nothing to do with their position being obsolete. Every team in the comp would love a competent second ruck who's good for 30-40 goals while resting forward. But the players you've mentioned were well short of that.

It's a tough position to play ,there is not many elite tall forwards

 

[Socrates2]

Do you not understand the point I was making?

This thread is not about whether Tippett was good, bad or indifferent. It's about whether the retirements of these three players demonstrate that the position they played is now obsolete.

The fact is that all three were disappointing to varying degrees. And Tippett was ultimately forced out by injury. So when you consider all that, their retirements are not evidence of the position they played becoming obsolete. It's evidence of Griffiths and Vickery being disappointments; and of Tippett being admittedly less of a disappointment (albeit still grossly overpaid) but injured.

Your outrage on Tippett's behalf, while touching, is not particularly relevant. Come back to me when you've figured out how the dots connect.

Tippett,Griffith and Vickery were fit to play this year.Tippett had ankle injury,that doesnt stop you playing if you want to playHe would've been back sometime this year.

 

[Thetrader15]

View attachment 453012 View attachment 453013 View attachment 453014

Note Vickery's highlight is against Brisbane

 

[Thetrader15]

I think the 3rd tall has always been an iffy position.

Look at the likes Hamish McIntosh, Majak Daw, Jesse White, Leigh Brown, Mitch Clark...

Only Corey McKernan, Drew Petrie, Brad Ottens, Paddy Ryder and David Hale have really made a good career of it.

But we still have Joe Daniher, Peter Wright, Josh Jenkins and Levi Casboult doing it nicely.

Paul Salmon too

 

[Socrates2]

And you'd be wrong on both counts.

Griffiths was always crap. Vickery was crap for a long time. Tippett briefly flirted with not being crap but was still an expensive disappointment with a bad ankle.

It's got nothing to do with their position being obsolete. Every team in the comp would love a competent second ruck who's good for 30-40 goals while resting forward. But the players you've mentioned were well short of that.

Vickery kicked 160 goals and retires at 27