Autopsy Is the 3rd tall forward becoming redundant?

[Sweet Jesus]

There is a trend for more Calab Daniel, Luke Dahlhouse , Dan Rioli, Dan Butler types who are tackling speed machines ,and that will stay for a while as teams copy Richmond and Bulldogs

And this is why Vickery, Griffiths and Tippett finished up?

Would you like to buy my magic rock?

 

[Socrates2]

And this is why Vickery, Griffiths and Tippett finished up?

Would you like to buy my magic rock?

Yes I reckon,because of the new trend, they look worse than they are.There's not as much space to lead into and fewer genuine one on one contests .Then you have a 5 possession game, you get ridiculed , called useless, too slow can't mark ect -you get forced out of the game

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Yes I reckon,because of the new trend, they look worse than they are. There's not as much space to lead into and fewer genuine one on one contests .Then you have a 5 possession game, you get ridiculed , called useless, too slow can't mark ect -you get forced out of the gameView attachment 453435

But it's got nothing to do with a "new trend".

Griffiths never fired a shot. Vickery has been ordinary for years and did nothing at Hawthorn. Tippett was an expensive disappointment with a bad ankle.

You don't need to point to a "new trend" to explain their retirements.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Adelaide fans get to watch Walker, Jenkins and a fairly handy Tom Lynch.......

& McGovern.

 

[Socrates2]

But it's got nothing to do with a "new trend".

Griffiths never fired a shot. Vickery has been ordinary for years and did nothing at Hawthorn. Tippett was an expensive disappointment with a bad ankle.

You don't need to point to a "new trend" to explain their retirements.

Fair point they may not be that good ,but I think you'll see playing lists change in the next few years to basically one less tall forward and one more small

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Fair point they may not be that good ,but I think you'll see playing lists change in the next few years to basically one less tall forward and one more small

But you concede this trend is not necessary to explain the retirements of the players mentioned.

The way sides structure their forwardlines will likely depend on how many forwards they have who are good enough.

 

[getgaff]

Case by case scenario depending on each team.

Crows go OK with 4 guys over 190 cm's in Lynch, Walker, Jenkins and McGovern, Richmond is a different case with one tall surrounded by smalls and mediums.

The days of dinosaur second rucks are more limited I think, my reasoning for preferring Vardy over Lycett as second ruck at West Coast but you take away the better tap ruck in Lycett.

 

[Socrates2]

But you concede this trend is not necessary to explain the retirements of the players mentioned.

The way sides structure their forwardlines will likely depend on how many forwards they have who are good enough.

I wouldn't concede that, as I think it had a impact on their thinking about their football future.Daniel Rioli is the protype small forward of the future and lumbering talls are on the nose more than ever.

 

[PowerForGood]

I wouldn't concede that, as I think it had a impact on their thinking about their football future.Daniel Rioli is the protype small forward of the future and lumbering talls are on the nose more than ever.

Agreed. The success of all premiership teams have become the prototype blueprint of all future success.... if you ignore the cases where they aren't.

 

[sonnywalters]

More all three just fell off a cliff and two of them (Vickery and Tippett) would have been on good salary.

The third tall is still alive and well, seeing marking talls (especially contested marking) is a skill that is pure gold for a forward line. It is worth noting that the most consistent side last season results wise had 4 tall forwards.

4?
You had Jenkins, Walker and Lynch. Who was the fourth?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I wouldn't concede that, as I think it had a impact on their thinking about their football future.Daniel Rioli is the protype small forward of the future and lumbering talls are on the nose more than ever.

But you conceded they weren't that good anyway.

 

[sonnywalters]

Firstly, I think this is an interesting topic.

I think the real change we will see is coaches will just pick their best 22 players and worry way less about 'positions' than they did in the past.

In the unlikely situation you have 3 gun tall fwds on your list - then sure - they all play. No worries.
But who really has 3 quality tall fwds on their list? Be honest here.
Gone are the days where you pick a 2nd or 3rd tall just because you feel obliged to stick with a traditional 'structure'.

If your 2nd or 3rd tall fwd is actually s**t - then dont pick them just for the sake of traditional 'structure'.

I call this the Kosi rule.

For years the Saints played Kosi - just because - you know - you have to have a 2nd tall fwd. It is a rule set in stone. In reality he was a liability and witch's hat for most games and we'd have been better off going with a smaller side.
I am sure most clubs have a Kosi. Some bloke picked week in week out because he is tall - when in reality he is just pretty ordinary.

The old adage that a 'good big bloke is better than a good little bloke' remains true BUT we need to acknowledge that a lot of big blokes are actually quite s**t.

 

[owen87]

Case by case scenario depending on each team.

Crows go OK with 4 guys over 190 cm's in Lynch, Walker, Jenkins and McGovern, Richmond is a different case with one tall surrounded by smalls and mediums.

The days of dinosaur second rucks are more limited I think, my reasoning for preferring Vardy over Lycett as second ruck at West Coast but you take away the better tap ruck in Lycett.

I think this is close to the mark; unless they’re the number one ruckman - and clearly dominant like a Sandilands - I don’t think teams can carry a player that doesn’t have the mobility to work as part of a zone.

A 3rd tall to me is someone like a Lynch or Gunston type; they have the mobility to work up and down the ground like a smaller player but can cause a mismatch when they drift forward (or back) against a smaller opponent. Their role is more as a link player and a high half forward.

Not many teams have a truly high quality third tall forward or defender which is why it’s so valuable.

Franklin is an unusual mix of size and mobility but doesn’t really play the 3rd tall role, he’s been pretty much the number one forward target his entire career.

Vickery and Tippett were really Forward / Rucks anyway, they played a completely different role to the Lynch and Gunston’s of the AFL.

 

[owen87]

4?
You had Jenkins, Walker and Lynch. Who was the third?

Mitch McGovern is best 22 when available. He and Lynch play what i’d call a ‘third tall’ role even though there’s four of them.

 

[sonnywalters]

& McGovern.

I'll pay McGovern.
But what you need to be honest about - is that Jenkins is actually s**t.
Put Jenkins in a bottom 8 side and he would not touch the ball.

 

[sonnywalters]

My definition of 3rd tall = Third best fwd over 190cm in the selected 22.

 

[bluebob1]

I'll pay McGovern.
But what you need to be honest about - is that Jenkins is actually s**t.
Put Jenkins in a bottom 8 side and he would not touch the ball.

i hate jenkin's lack of aggression but he runs well and marks lot of uncontested marks because he works hard, he would do just as well in your side and would be your best/2nd best forward. He is actually not a bad player but the criticism is that if he had a bit of mongrel in him he could be so much better. Just a question do you think Bruce is s**t?

 

[Rimmer]

One tall is flavour of the month because Richmond had to find a game plan for one tall forward and it was successful. They also played with 4 tall backs. It will be nice if it works again. Coaches will find ways to win, good coaches like Clarkson are always evolving their game. On the main subject it has been a long time since any team could get away with 3 tall forwards over a longer period. There are more quick creative tackling short forwards than talls.

Get the ball on the ground and a good short player will beat a good tall player most of the time.

 

[liz]

Agreed, these are the kind of guys that I think of as third talls - probably not including Rohan though but those other types you mentioned I agree with. To me a third tall is a guy that's a bit too short to be a genuine KP but is still taller than your medium types (up to about 190cm normally - although there are exceptions).

So teams like GWS with Cameron, Patton and Lobb or Essendon with Daniher, Hooker and Stewart don't actually have a real 3rd tall type, they just play 3 key forwards or forward/rucks.

I think if you are going to play 3 genuine kp sized players you need at least one of them to do part time rucking or to have exceptional agility (like Franklin).

I'm curious about why you don't think Rohan fits into that category.

And to be honest, I'd probably put Stewart in there too, despite his height. He's a bit like McGovern, at Adelaide, in that he's tall enough to play as a key forward target but his role, at least last season, seemed to be as a support act for Daniher and Hooker (when Hooker was available).

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

I'll pay McGovern.
But what you need to be honest about - is that Jenkins is actually s**t.
Put Jenkins in a bottom 8 side and he would not touch the ball.

Lol, JJ would be your #1 forward... Mind you, so would most of our forward line.

We played 4 forwards over 1.9m & worked out fine... except the grand final when Gov was missing.

 

[Socrates2]

But you conceded they weren't that good anyway.

I conceded they were good when the game style suited them more and that their recent form wasn't great.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I conceded they were good when the game style suited them more.

Nonsense. These guys were already on struggle street, to varying degrees.

No "new trend" is needed to explain their retirements. This explanation is completely superfluous.

 

[The Joker]

Adelaide fans get to watch Walker, Jenkins and a fairly handy Tom Lynch.......

What, am i not allowed to watch them?

 

[gavaniacono]

What, am i not allowed to watch them?

Need to find them first.
Perhaps not worth the trouble.

 

[blitzer]

I'm curious about why you don't think Rohan fits into that category.

And to be honest, I'd probably put Stewart in there too, despite his height. He's a bit like McGovern, at Adelaide, in that he's tall enough to play as a key forward target but his role, at least last season, seemed to be as a support act for Daniher and Hooker (when Hooker was available).

I just think of Rohan as a medium forward rather than a third tall. Whilst he can take a mark, I think its his speed that defines him as a player. Certainly at Sydney you have tended to play 3 taller guys with him eg Franklin, Reid and Tippett/Sinclair. But its probably just arguing semantics in any case.

Stewart is a weird one in that he's genuine KP forward size in anyone's books but he just doesn't play like one. So he probably is a 3rd tall at present.