Is the AFL becoming only about athletes??

[greatwhiteshark]

Having great athleticism will always be an advantage, all else equal, so it's no surprise that when it comes to international recruits that the focus tends to be on athletic qualities. By virtue of not growing up with the game, we cannot judge them on their football prowess. The Irish boys tend to be judged more on talent since the Gaelic game has some crossover in skills.



This sentiment always amuses me since it is quite obvious that today's players are more skilled than previous generations. Ball movement is both faster and more accurate than it was in the 1980s or 1990s and light-years beyond the skill level before that.

Based on what? Goal kicking is no better and if not worse than previous eras so why do you think the skills are better? Ball movement is clearly faster but it certainly is not more accurate. A great deal of players couldn’t hit a barn door from 30 meters away by foot.
Maybe you are confused as today’s game is half uncontested that you think these kicks to players standing on their own are highly skilled.
It is mathematically impossible for 90% of today’s kids to better kicks than the kids from the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s.
Those kids in those eras did nothing but kick the footy, before school, during school, after school, footy training and pretty much any spare minute they had they kicked a footy. On average they would kick a footy 50 times or more a day and that is being very conservative. Now go today’s kids who have far more things to do in their life and you will see how much less they are handling a footy. It is simple numbers.
You go and hit 300 golf balls a day and I hit 50 per day the odds are that you will be a much better golfer than me.
There will always be exceptions but still very few of those exceptions make it to the AFL.
I have coached for a long time and a high level down to under 16’s and it is laughable how poorly skilled the players are.
I got no problem with you thinking different as that is your opinion. I know what I see and I spend half of the time watching AFL games laughing how players miss such easy targets by hand and foot and get paid a great deal of money to do so.

 

[calyam]

Based on what? Goal kicking is no better and if not worse than previous eras so why do you think the skills are better? Ball movement is clearly faster but it certainly is not more accurate. A great deal of players couldn’t hit a barn door from 30 meters away by foot.
Maybe you are confused as today’s game is half uncontested that you think these kicks to players standing on their own are highly skilled.
It is mathematically impossible for 90% of today’s kids to better kicks than the kids from the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s.
Those kids in those eras did nothing but kick the footy, before school, during school, after school, footy training and pretty much any spare minute they had they kicked a footy. On average they would kick a footy 50 times or more a day and that is being very conservative. Now go today’s kids who have far more things to do in their life and you will see how much less they are handling a footy. It is simple numbers.
You go and hit 300 golf balls a day and I hit 50 per day the odds are that you will be a much better golfer than me.
There will always be exceptions but still very few of those exceptions make it to the AFL.
I have coached for a long time and a high level down to under 16’s and it is laughable how poorly skilled the players are.
I got no problem with you thinking different as that is your opinion. I know what I see and I spend half of the time watching AFL games laughing how players miss such easy targets by hand and foot and get paid a great deal of money to do so.

It's directly observable by watching the game. Ball movement is superior to what it was during the VFL's semi-professional era. Furthermore, while goal-kicking accuracy hasn't changed materially in three decades, it is clearly higher than in the decades prior to that (53% in 2017; 52.4% in 2007; 52% in 1997; 53.3% in 1987; 50.3% in 1977; 47.2% in 1967; 45.5% in 1957). Given the extra ground covered by forwards - and the greater share of goals kicked by midfielders - it is actually impressive that accuracy hasn't declined.

Also can we not abuse mathematics by creating your own imaginary statistics? This statement: ' it is mathematically impossible for 90% of today's kids to better kicks than the kids from the 60's, 70's and 80's' is nonsense since it is mathematically possible. It isn't likely but it isn't mathematically impossible. Also your statement 'on average they would kick the ball 50 times a day' is made up and not at all convincing.

I think it would be in your best interest to refresh your memory and maybe watch a game from the 1970s or 1980s. It will immediately become apparent how slow the ball movement is and how little pressure is placed on the man with the ball. It will also become apparent that today's players are capable of much more than those who ran around during the VFL's semi-professional era. That isn't surprising since professional footballers should be better than those that ran around during the league's amateur or semi-professional eras. It would be very odd indeed, probably unprecedented, if greater professionalism lead to a deterioration in skills.

 

[MightyTiger]

International recruits are getting picked up by clubs barely knowing anyone about AFL because they are simply athletic. Take Mason Cox for example, if he wasn't so big he wouldn't have even been looked at. As the AFL is continously evolving, athletes are gonna take over footballers. There are a lot of footballers out there purely on football ability, without possession too much athleticism. Guys such as Stevie J, boomer harvey. What do you guys reckon about this topic??

Jenkins would he a superstar if all you needed was athleticism, unfortunately for him AFL involves using your hands and feet and occasionally chasing an opponent.

 

[mehow2g]

I'm pretty sure the "recruit an athlete turn into a player" to create the next Judd has been done and tried.

 

[ManOfClay]

If you look at what North does off-field, it becomes pretty obvious as to why he's still on our list .

And that’s why north are s**t. Wasting list spots on people who could just be employed as staff.

Look at the bulldogs and Brett Goodes. We initially employed him, then listed him and delisted him but still employed him for the off field stuff.

Attitude like that is why we have success this millennium and north don’t.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

It's directly observable by watching the game. Ball movement is superior to what it was during the VFL's semi-professional era. Furthermore, while goal-kicking accuracy hasn't changed materially in three decades, it is clearly higher than in the decades prior to that (53% in 2017; 52.4% in 2007; 52% in 1997; 53.3% in 1987; 50.3% in 1977; 47.2% in 1967; 45.5% in 1957). Given the extra ground covered by forwards - and the greater share of goals kicked by midfielders - it is actually impressive that accuracy hasn't declined.

Also can we not abuse mathematics by creating your own imaginary statistics? This statement: ' it is mathematically impossible for 90% of today's kids to better kicks than the kids from the 60's, 70's and 80's' is nonsense since it is mathematically possible. It isn't likely but it isn't mathematically impossible. Also your statement 'on average they would kick the ball 50 times a day' is made up and not at all convincing.

I think it would be in your best interest to refresh your memory and maybe watch a game from the 1970s or 1980s. It will immediately become apparent how slow the ball movement is and how little pressure is placed on the man with the ball. It will also become apparent that today's players are capable of much more than those who ran around during the VFL's semi-professional era. That isn't surprising since professional footballers should be better than those that ran around during the league's amateur or semi-professional eras. It would be very odd indeed, probably unprecedented, if greater professionalism lead to a deterioration in skills.

I am not trying to convince you, once the AFL media have you they have you.
I am talking kicking and hand skills across the board and in my opinion it is very very average in today’s game.
There is no way that Dangerfields kicking ability is better than a Greg Williams for example, that is two best players from their own era. Both champion players yet according to you Dangerfields is far better than Williams.
Let’s look at my own club the Eagles, Hurn and Shuey are what I call elite kicks of the footy, Jetta also has elite skills although he doesn’t get it much. Kennedy is a high level goal kicker. But now I am struggling to find any elite skilled kicks in the Eagles squad of 40 plus players. The Eagles are an average side because they have poorly skilled players, they turn the ball over time after time because of this.
This applies to every club in my view, some clubs have more elite skilled players than others but the drop off in skills is far greater now than ever before in the games history.
There would of course have been a drop off in skills in every era of the game throughout the list but as they recruited footballers I think that across the board they were better skilled.
Yes the ball movement is quicker now, players get far more possessions now and cover a lot more ground in the game, does this lead to the kicking skills being poor then that is possible.
Look I just don’t agree with you, I love how quick the modern game is but just scratch my head at the players skills who as you say are fully professional. I actually can’t understand how so many of them even got drafted to start with.

 

[NoobPie]

I am not trying to convince you, once the AFL media have you they have you.
I am talking kicking and hand skills across the board and in my opinion it is very very average in today’s game.
There is no way that Dangerfields kicking ability is better than a Greg Williams for example, that is two best players from their own era. Both champion players yet according to you Dangerfields is far better than Williams.
Let’s look at my own club the Eagles, Hurn and Shuey are what I call elite kicks of the footy, Jetta also has elite skills although he doesn’t get it much. Kennedy is a high level goal kicker. But now I am struggling to find any elite skilled kicks in the Eagles squad of 40 plus players. The Eagles are an average side because they have poorly skilled players, they turn the ball over time after time because of this.
This applies to every club in my view, some clubs have more elite skilled players than others but the drop off in skills is far greater now than ever before in the games history.
There would of course have been a drop off in skills in every era of the game throughout the list but as they recruited footballers I think that across the board they were better skilled.
Yes the ball movement is quicker now, players get far more possessions now and cover a lot more ground in the game, does this lead to the kicking skills being poor then that is possible.
Look I just don’t agree with you, I love how quick the modern game is but just scratch my head at the players skills who as you say are fully professional. I actually can’t understand how so many of them even got drafted to start with.

In my experience, people in a debate who assert someone else's opinion as unthinking received-wisdom / brain-washed are more likely to be the ones guilty of it. The game is elevated far above where it was in the 80s in pretty much every way

For the most part, the athletic "project players" have been a flop and now pretty much only happen under cat b rookie program.

The game is much faster and far more organised than ever before. Comparing skill errors made under extreme pressure trying to pick some out in a highly organised zone to the "good old days" where players had more time and space in executing to the advantage of a team mate in a one-on-one is risible

Dangerfield does not have elite footskills but he is a superb footballer. This isn't soccer. There are far more layers of attributes that all-in-all make a good footballer than just foot skills. It is what makes the sport, and its potential, so great. Franklin can barely take an overhead mark but how good a footballer is he?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

In my experience, people in a debate who assert someone else's opinion as unthinking received-wisdom / brain-washed are more likely to be the ones guilty of it. The game is elevated far above where it was in the 80s in pretty much every way

For the most part, the athletic "project players" have been a flop and now pretty much only happen under cat b rookie program.

The game is much faster and far more organised than ever before. Comparing skill errors made under extreme pressure trying to pick some out in a highly organised zone to the "good old days" where players had more time and space in executing to the advantage of a team mate in a one-on-one is risible

Dangerfield does not have elite footskills but he is a superb footballer. This isn't soccer. There are far more layers of attributes that all-in-all make a good footballer than just foot skills. It is what makes the sport, and its potential, so great. Franklin can barely take an overhead mark but how good a footballer is he?

it is all in the eyes of the beholder, Half the game today is uncontested footy so that extreme pressure you speak of is there for only half of the game.
And I am talking foot and hand skills only, not as you put the complete footballer. I don't think a quarter of the modern day player can even kick on their opposite foot.

 

[Furn2]

International and category b players are a free hit and since they have to have never played footy they are going to be picked on their athletic ability.

It's not like Mason Cox was chosen over a kid who was a natural footballer.

 

[Furn2]

Based on what? Goal kicking is no better and if not worse than previous eras so why do you think the skills are better? Ball movement is clearly faster but it certainly is not more accurate. A great deal of players couldn’t hit a barn door from 30 meters away by foot.

That's a myth. Goal kicking now is better than every era apart from as small peak between 2000 and 2005.

 

[gbatman]

No it isn't, handling the ball is still the number one aspect. There are elite players who handle the ball under pressure one touch and kick and handball it well. There are terrific athletes who fumble and don't hit targets and they are rubbish. The very best players have balance and the best sides have a lot of skilled players in their team who aren't necessarily super athletes.

I actually think that the balance between applied pressure and handling pressure is much the same. There was a time in the early 2000s when flooding came in that pressure exceeded the players skill. No doubt players have more pressure applied to them on the field and less time, the skill has to rise to compensate and it is putting a greater emphasis on skills.

Fast athletes apply the pressure, skillful players handle it and the stars do both.

 

[simba_]

i thought everyone had watched it go from a physical game for mature men to a game of running structures for young bodies

 

[Aramis]

There will always be a place for plodders that just know how to play football. The Priddis, Mitchell, Watson, Bartel's of the world.

Lol I don't think you know the meaning of the word "plodders".
If you did you wouldn't be calling Priddis, Mitchell, Watson or Bartel plodders....

 

[Seeds]

International recruits are getting picked up by clubs barely knowing anyone about AFL because they are simply athletic. Take Mason Cox for example, if he wasn't so big he wouldn't have even been looked at. As the AFL is continously evolving, athletes are gonna take over footballers. There are a lot of footballers out there purely on football ability, without possession too much athleticism. Guys such as Stevie J, boomer harvey. What do you guys reckon about this topic??

1994 wants its thread back.

 

[RedV3x]

Of course it is, why do you think so many have such poor skills.

Having great athleticism will always be an advantage, all else equal, so it's no surprise that when it comes to international recruits that the focus tends to be on athletic qualities. By virtue of not growing up with the game, we cannot judge them on their football prowess. The Irish boys tend to be judged more on talent since the Gaelic game has some crossover in skills.

But in the case of international combine recruits they are always playing catch-up.
Why should be they be exempt if the idea is to field the best possible team.

This sentiment always amuses me since it is quite obvious that today's players are more skilled than previous generations. Ball movement is both faster and more accurate than it was in the 1980s or 1990s and light-years beyond the skill level before that.

I think international recruits is what greatwhiteshark was referring to not players in general.

Obviously players are a lot more athletic these days because that is how recruiting is structured these days.
AFL clubs have learn little from the recruiting of Priddis, that real football prowess stands out better at an older age.

 

[juss]

International recruits are getting picked up by clubs barely knowing anyone about AFL because they are simply athletic. Take Mason Cox for example, if he wasn't so big he wouldn't have even been looked at. As the AFL is continously evolving, athletes are gonna take over footballers. There are a lot of footballers out there purely on football ability, without possession too much athleticism. Guys such as Stevie J, boomer harvey. What do you guys reckon about this topic??

Boomer was a great athlete, fast, incredible durability and longevity, and could run all day.

But in professional sports a certain level of athleticism is required, that’s part of being at the elite level. No way around it, if you are bigger, faster, stronger you have a better chance of making it, and that’s because AFL is a rough and tumble game. If you can’t keep up with the physicality of it, you won’t succeed.

 

[juss]

Jenkins would he a superstar if all you needed was athleticism, unfortunately for him AFL involves using your hands and feet and occasionally chasing an opponent.

As would Majak Daw

 

[parmy2balmey]

nah pure footballers like jack graham kicking 3 snags in the grand final and getting norm smith votes in just his fifth game suggest the sport is still a long way from being just about athletes.

 

[ManOfClay]

nah pure footballers like jack graham kicking 3 snags in the grand final and getting norm smith votes in just his fifth game suggest the sport is still a long way from being just about athletes.

I’m a big fan of pumping up grand final performances, see anything I’ve posted about Tom Boyd in the past 12 months, but there is no guarantee JG is going to kick on and be anything other than a guy who had a great day in a big win by his side, grand final or not

 

[parmy2balmey]

I’m a big fan of pumping up grand final performances, see anything I’ve posted about Tom Boyd in the past 12 months, but there is no guarantee JG is going to kick on and be anything other than a guy who had a great day in a big win by his side, grand final or not

no guarantees but he’s had five great days in a row

 

[master bate]

He got delisted.
I wish no one would list Americans.
They are all so painful to watch, NFI.
Its like trying to watch a kitten thread a needle. No thanks .

No one picks them because they are American, it's just a move to try and find 200cm+ athletes with the right combination of size, speed, agility and fitness. None of the American's have really worked out yet but Mike Pyke was excellent in a grand final and of course there's Jim Stynes.

 

[master bate]

Richmond were super quick all over the ground. Their grand final side had 22 fit players nearly all of whom are at least average speed for position.

The speed of their ball movement and pressure (and other similar teams) wiped out slow inside midfielders like Mitchell and Priddis this year. Slow outside mids have largely been gone for years particularly when the Hawks were speeding Smith and Hill up the wings.

That said, there's always someone like Josh Kennedy from the Swans who is a fraction quicker and fitter than someone like Mitchell and still dominates.

Without rule changes the game with steadily raise the bar for speed, endurance and power but it's not a drastic change year to year.

 

[PerfectFooty]

I thought a few years ago that the game was heading that way, a lot of athlete's running around. Since then i think the trend has reversed and the game is after more pure footballers now.

 

[Hellgood]

Richmond were super quick all over the ground. Their grand final side had 22 fit players nearly all of whom are at least average speed for position.

The speed of their ball movement and pressure (and other similar teams) wiped out slow inside midfielders like Mitchell and Priddis this year. Slow outside mids have largely been gone for years particularly when the Hawks were speeding Smith and Hill up the wings.

That said, there's always someone like Josh Kennedy from the Swans who is a fraction quicker and fitter than someone like Mitchell and still dominates.

Without rule changes the game with steadily raise the bar for speed, endurance and power but it's not a drastic change year to year.

I honestly don't feel that Richmond's success was on the back of vastly superior athletic attributes or even skill in comparison to the other contenders. Where I felt they set themselves apart from the rest was by being the most disciplined, relentless and coherent team in the competition by a margin and would go as far to say I haven't seen a team play for each other quite so much as that group in a long time. Huge credit to Hardwick and their leaders for generating that kind of buy in.

 

[master bate]

I honestly don't feel that Richmond's success was on the back of vastly superior athletic attributes or even skill in comparison to the other contenders. Where I felt they set themselves apart from the rest was by being the most disciplined, relentless and coherent team in the competition by a margin and would go as far to say I haven't seen a team play for each other quite so much as that group in a long time. Huge credit to Hardwick and their leaders for generating that kind of buy in.

I think you're right in saying that was the basis of their success but I also think they changed their game plan this year to be based around their strengths which was a very fit side with a lot of run. They used that to keep the ball moving when they had it, chase when they didn't and get numbers to the contest to win it back.

In their 3 finals:
QF: HT 3.7 25. FT 91
PF: HT 5.7 37 FT 103
GF: HT 6.4 40 FT 108

A bit of that is the other side dropping away in junk time but really the Tigers used their pressure to defend early and then broke the games open with fitness and quick ball movement in the second half.

Geelong changed their forward line before the game. Stevie J should've retired at half time and the Crows were embarrassed by the speed of the Tigers movement.

The Bulldogs were a similar team to the Tigers in terms of winning it all on the back of team first footy but they had a bit more skill and a bit more ball winning.

Most teams will get worse not better if they try to copy Richmond, but I think teams are right to know they have to get fitter and quicker to keep up. The trade period showed that teams were largely uninterested in trading for tall or slower players and the draft also was very strong on quick and fit players.