Expansion Is the AFL good for footy?

Which league format do you support?

  • Fixed League

  • Divisional System


Results are only viewable after voting.

Gigantor

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#51
Is their any point of divisions, if you cant get to the AFL.?

AFL clubs are heavily subsidised & get draft picks. How would that work with divisions?
Part of the OP is that there would be promotion and relegation.
 

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NoobPie

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#52
Is their any point of divisions, if you cant get to the AFL.?

AFL clubs are heavily subsidised & get draft picks. How would that work with divisions?
You clearly haven’t grasped his “vision” yet.

You’ll be happy surviving at the bum end of division 2 apparently. There is no draft but you’ll get 1/12th of the tv rights for division 2
 

madmug

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#53
Part of the OP is that there would be promotion and relegation.
You clearly haven’t grasped his “vision” yet.

You’ll be happy surviving at the bum end of division 2 apparently. There is no draft but you’ll get 1/12th of the tv rights for division 2

These two comments seem somewhat juxtaposition to me. What do you see as the mechanism for promotion, relegation. Indeed would their be any?
 
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Thread starter #54
These two comments seem somewhat juxtaposition to me. What do you see as the mechanism for promotion, relegation. Indeed would their be any?
Top 2 sides to up, bottom 2 get relegated. Minimum of 12 sides per division. That means, div2 would be very strong and exciting. So would the teams at the bottom of div1/2, as relegation would be heartbreaking. It's all about the drama.
 

madmug

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#55
Top 2 sides to up, bottom 2 get relegated. Minimum of 12 sides per division. That means, div2 would be very strong and exciting. So would the teams at the bottom of div1/2, as relegation would be heartbreaking. It's all about the drama.
It certainly would add some excitement.

So would we have a draft system? What would the salary cap be?
 

NoobPie

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#57
It certainly would add some excitement.

So would we have a draft system? What would the salary cap be?
Salary cap is apparently the same across all three divisions....but teams in each division get an even split of the TV revenues sold separately for each division....

Draft system? Socialism, Kremlin, Authoritarianism, fundamentalist equalisation!!!
 
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#58
If 18 year old kids don't want to move to the Gold Coast to be a professional footballer, you're hardly going to get them to move to Hobart.
When GC becomes competitive on field (which it will), there will be little issue of player retention.

A Tas. AFL team would eventually have Tasmanians as the majority of its players. Tas AF has been carpetbagged by the VFL/AFL, & its pathways/expert coaching/elite teams etc ignored/underfunded. Tas. has arguably, per capita, the best AF pedigree in Australia. It has produced a large no. of champions, & many other good VFL/AFL players.

Both Demetriou & McLachlan have both publicly said (undoubtedly with the imprimatur of the Commission) on several occasions (paraphrasing) "When the next AFL expansion occurs, a Tas. team wil probably be the next team". No timeline was provided. They understand the value of the traditional, superb Tas. VFL/AFL big recruitment goldmine -which has been "lost".

The average wage of a current AFL player is c. $350,000 pa. There would be a stampede of elite, young mainlander footballers wanting to go there, to join the AFL. The Tas. AFL team will play in front of seething, passionate crowds of c.20,000+ -fantastic vibe for players & fans!

Yes, the "bright big city lights" present a strong attraction for some (but certainly not all) regional/rural, & Tas., young people.
Geelong is c. 75 minutes (non-peak) from the Melb. CBD nightclubs/bars etc. -it has no problems getting players to live in the Geelong area. Hobart & Launy are c. a 40 minute plane trip from Melb.

A tiny 3 br renovated, period, attached, worker's cottage (on land c. 16 ft x 90 ft -pocket backyard) on a quiet street in a trendy inner-city Melb. suburb will cost c. $1,500,000 (same location,"big" land 40 ft X 120 ft non-attached renovated house- $2,500,000+). In Hobart or Launy, you would get a huge, renovated house on a really big block for much less than half -& not have to endure Melb.'s horrific peak hour traffic, overcrowding, increasing crime rate-drugs' problem-violent gangs, & much anti-social behaviour.
 
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Rabman

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#59
When GC becomes competitive on field (which it will), there will be little issue of player retention.

A Tas. AFL team would eventually have Tasmanians as the majority of its players. Tas AF has been carpetbagged by the VFL/AFL, & its pathways/expert coaching/elite teams etc ignored/underfunded. Tas. has arguably, per capita, the best AF pedigree in Australia. It has produced a large no. of champions, & many other good VFL/AFL players.

Both Demetriou & McLachlan have both publicly said (undoubtedly with the imprimatur of the Commission) on several occasions (paraphrasing) "When the next AFL expansion occurs, a Tas. team wil probably be the next team". They understand the value of the traditional VFL/AFL recruitment goldmine -which has been "lost".

The average wage of a current AFL player is c. $350,000 pa. There would be a stampede of elite mainlander footballers wanting to go there, to join the AFL. The Tas. AFL team will play in front of seething, passionate crowds of c.20,000 -fantastic vibe!

Yes, the "bright big city lights" present a strong attraction for some (but not all) regional/rural, & Tas., young people.
Geelong is c. 75 minutes (non-peak) from the Melb. CBD nightclubs/bars etc. -it has no problems getting players to live in the Geelong area. Hobart & Launy are c. a 40 minute plane trip from Melb.

A tiny 3 br renovated, period worker's cottage (on land c. 16 ft x 90 f -pocket backyard) on a quiet street in a trendy inner-city Melb. suburb will cost c. $1,500,000 (same location,"big" renovated house & land- $2,500,000+). In Hobart or Launy, you would get a huge, renovated house on a big block for much less than half -& not have to endure Melb.'s horrific peak hour traffic, overcrowding, increasing crime rate, & much anti-social behaviour.
Tassie should of had it's own side 25 years ago, how can they continue to be argued against when clubs like St.kilda and North who have been around for over 100 years constantly need large financial aid and bring pathetic crowds that tassie side would easily better.
 

madmug

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#60
Tassie should of had it's own side 25 years ago, how can they continue to be argued against when clubs like St.kilda and North who have been around for over 100 years constantly need large financial aid and bring pathetic crowds that tassie side would easily better.
Both clubs & Carlton are just waiting for the next group of conscripts (sorry, the draftees) to arrive so they can get some success. Melbourne have waited for ages to get their current 'lift'.

And thats the problem. With so many clubs in one place & in 'non football' areas, its a revolving door of clubs bobbing up & down. It is a socialist system. Clubs don't need to do much to survive. Theirs no real imperative for success off field. On field success will come if you wait & don't stuff up with poor selections, poor coaching or poor footy department practices.

The AFL run a cradle to grave system. They develop the elite kids, dump the rest. Pays clubs that fail. It rewards mediocrity.

At least some sort of divisional system as discussed would address that problem. Reward is 1st division & trying to win 'the grail' . 2nd division is where you build, develop or just find your level. Salary caps should still apply. But the %age paid might vary. ie make a cap of $15mil but 1st div only need to pay say 75%, 2nd div say 50%. That allows for scope to regroup if money is short & expand as one goes up the ladder if a club wants/needs to.

The AFL wouldn't ever think of such a thing as they are on the gravy train. Why think?. Why bother? Why upset the VFL comfort zone?

Such a system could really excite & invigorate the game itself.

The semi pro, community & development leagues below would still need care & attention from the top.

Great concept I think. Their it will end. The AFL CGAF about such a system which could benefit the game, but not so much, the AFLs home base.
 
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Thread starter #61
Both clubs & Carlton are just waiting for the next group of conscripts (sorry, the draftees) to arrive so they can get some success. .
Playing Elite Football is one of the ultimate accolades.
It should be backed by full integrity and freedom of choice.

The only freedom given by the AFL, is to either participate in the draft lottery or not participate at all. Its wrong.
 

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Gigantor

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#62
Playing Elite Football is one of the ultimate accolades.
It should be backed by full integrity and freedom of choice.

The only freedom given by the AFL, is to either participate in the draft lottery or not participate at all. Its wrong.
It's been a very, very long time since any potential draftee has made overtures about not wanting to be drafted to particular clubs.

The last one I can remember is James Cook in the early 1990s. These days, pretty much everyone accepts that if you want to start a footy career, you enter the draft.
 

madmug

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#63
It's been a very, very long time since any potential draftee has made overtures about not wanting to be drafted to particular clubs.

The last one I can remember is James Cook in the early 1990s. These days, pretty much everyone accepts that if you want to start a footy career, you enter the draft.
That doesn't mean its right, or indeed it would withstand a legal challenge. If its accepted by players etc, & no one challenges the socialist system, then players will go where they're told.
 
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Gigantor

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#64
That doesn't mean its right, or indeed it would withstand a legal challenge. If its accepted by players etc, & no one challenges the socialist system, then players will go where they're told.
Well, the James Cook situation was about 25 years ago, and we've never heard a peep since.

I don't think it's as clear cut as you make out that a player taking this court would necessarily win.
 

madmug

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#67
Well, the James Cook situation was about 25 years ago, and we've never heard a peep since.

I don't think it's as clear cut as you make out that a player taking this court would necessarily win.
I said nothing about it being clear cut.

Nothing is clear cut until it gets taken to the high court. If it ever does.
 
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Thread starter #68
I said nothing about it being clear cut.

Nothing is clear cut until it gets taken to the high court. If it ever does.
It may be more of a case for taking over the afl in an uprising, resulting in a democratically elected leader of the AFL, with voting rights based on minimum club membership status.
 
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#69
It may be more of a case for taking over the afl in an uprising, resulting in a democratically elected leader of the AFL, with voting rights based on minimum club membership status.
(1) Interesting -please provide us more detail on the relative voting rights of the AFL Div.1 - AFL Div. 3 Clubs & members; & how the bigger AFL would be run? Is there any professional comp. in the world (now, or previously) controlled directly by the fans in the way you propose?

(2) Would the end result of your democracy plan be that the current 18 AFL Div.1 Clubs (with their huge memberships) would, now & always, have far greater voting power than the much smaller Div.2 & Div.3 Clubs? And also always be far more popular/richer?
Thus the small Clubs would always be permanently disadvantaged (& thus never be competitive in Div.1, or perhaps even Div.2). The current 18 AFL Div.1 Clubs would always "scheme" to maintain their hegemony/get promoted next year back to Div.1!

Thus, no chance of a true free market, based primarily on merit/hard work, & the cherished "level playing field".

(3) The Melb. AFL Clubs have 116-160 years of history -with the accompanying generations of rusted-on emotional & generational support.
Do you accept this provides the AFL with a huge, unique, irreplaceable advantage, re generating its world-class crowds & devoted following?

The 116-160 year old Melb. Clubs have, obviously, a huge "Brand" recognition.
How important is Branding & marketing in a free market; & running a successful business?

(4) The Foster's Cup (2nd tier Clubs from various states playing one another in a short knockout comp.) was a crowd/Ratings flop.

Excluding the VFA from 1897-the 1980's (where it generally attracted c. 20%+ of the VFL's crowds, had GF crowds from 15,000 -48,000, & its Sunday 2pm live TV game had Ratings up to 200,000 per game), Aust. fans have generally not shown massive support for 2nd tier comps. (The WAFL & SANFL H & A crowds are shrinking alarmingly now -many are questioning their survival over the next 20+ years).

There is a long history of Clubs overspending on players, to attempt to win premierships -then going broke. Is your free market P & R Div.1 - Div. 3 structure ensuring this will also often be the likely outcome?

(5) AF culture has diminished in Vic., WA, SA, & Tas., cf previous decades. There has been a massive loss of player market share to soccer & basketball, & computer games; & crowds are significantly down on a per capita basis (& also on raw nos. in Tas.)
Can you provide detailed reasons how your proposals would reverse this trend? What if WA or SA had no Div. 1 Clubs, after relegation?

(6) In NSW, Qld, & the ACT, the AFL has been doing a good job growing AF. Ditto female AF, Aust. wide. NT is now an AF heartland. The AFL, as part of its self-proclaimed "Keeper Of The Code" policy, spends large amounts of money in these areas. Do you agree with this "socialistic" policy?

Would your new AFL Clubs (or their all-powerful voting members!) adopt a "My Club First" policy - & possibly reduce/eradicate these "selfless" investments? No Club or members would ever voluntarily agree to cease, or endanger, its existence.

The VFA, which had your Divisional structure, with P & R, never promoted female AF (but was VERY influential in promoting the game of AF, & real suburban tribalism -& taking the AF "glamour" out into the suburbs).

Who would provide special funding for GWS, GC in their set-up phase, & GR AF in NSW, ACT, & Qld?
Who would fund, Aust. wide, female GR AF; & the AFLW? (The AFL aspires that the AFLW eventually becomes a self-sustaining, full time, summer professional comp. for its 600 + players).
Considerable investment will be required in ALL these areas.

The "free market", from 1919 to c.2004, ignored/mocked/legally banned female AF; & generally invested minimal $ into NSW & Qld. (excluding SFC & BFC).

(7) What would be the KPI's (re renumeration) of the leaders of the new United Revolutionary Australian Football People's Front?

You say you are a "free market" devotee, & oppose the AFL's "socialistic/equalisation" policies. I assume, therefore you are accepting of the AFL Commission paying the AFL Senior 11 person executive team $8,000,000+ pa remuneration (whilst AFL revenues are only c.$750,000,000 pa!)- as this is part of the free market.
Do you accept the "socialistic" cap on the non-player wage Football Dept. spending?

(8) You have stated your views are partially based on the success of the VAFA (easily Aust.'s biggest adult comp.), -but it is NOT run on free market principles. It bans alcohol at games, has restrictions on how Clubs recruit, & emphasises financial stability -primarily, by not allowing players to be paid for their "labour".

It has also emphasised, since the 1890's, its amateur culture- playing for the "Love Of The Game" (its official motto), good sportsmanship, & the importance of AF to Australian identity. "Culture" is an intangible, & does not automatically fit with the profit motive; & free market laissez-faire principles.

The article below highlights the importance of "culture" to the great success of the VAFA. It is an Open Letter by St Kevin's player Stephen Gilham, also an ex-AFL player, on his respect for the VAFA.

https://www.vafa.com.au/latest-news/stephen-gilham-ends-vafa-career-with-open-letter-to-skob/
 
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NoobPie

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#71
This is my pseudo 2 divisional league that I posted earlier this year. It is "pseudo" because teams in the lower division can still win the overall premiership in any year

It essentially marries two divisions with the much maligned 17-5 fixture idea

upload_2018-10-8_9-53-52.png


The two key advantages of this system would be:

1. Substantially reduces the number of competitively imbalanced games
2. Substantially increases the proportion of games that are for high stakes

A third advantage is you could introduce two new teams at the point that you implement the league and

So the team that finished top of "division 2" would qualify for the top 6 in the second phase. A variation would have 2nd in div 2 play off against 5th in div 1 for the last spot in the "top 6" group.
 

madmug

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#72
This is my pseudo 2 divisional league that I posted earlier this year. It is "pseudo" because teams in the lower division can still win the overall premiership in any year

It essentially marries two divisions with the much maligned 17-5 fixture idea

View attachment 570240

The two key advantages of this system would be:

1. Substantially reduces the number of competitively imbalanced games
2. Substantially increases the proportion of games that are for high stakes

A third advantage is you could introduce two new teams at the point that you implement the league and

So the team that finished top of "division 2" would qualify for the top 6 in the second phase. A variation would have 2nd in div 2 play off against 5th in div 1 for the last spot in the "top 6" group.
You've done some work on this. Well done. I think overall it'd be very good for the game.

The problem is the current comfort level of all the groups within the AFL. Its essentially a political game of power, money & control.

A system like you've proposed would really lift the game to a new level of interest. The problem being the vested interests we currently have. I don't see the current administration having much vision, other than self interest.
 

The_Wookie

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Moderator #73
This is my pseudo 2 divisional league that I posted earlier this year. It is "pseudo" because teams in the lower division can still win the overall premiership in any year

It essentially marries two divisions with the much maligned 17-5 fixture idea

View attachment 570240

The two key advantages of this system would be:

1. Substantially reduces the number of competitively imbalanced games
2. Substantially increases the proportion of games that are for high stakes

A third advantage is you could introduce two new teams at the point that you implement the league and

So the team that finished top of "division 2" would qualify for the top 6 in the second phase. A variation would have 2nd in div 2 play off against 5th in div 1 for the last spot in the "top 6" group.
Clubs would never go for a divisonal system that includes pro-rel. Theres commercial considerations beyond TV that contribute just as much to the coffers of clubs if not more, and youd be asking half a dozen clubs to give up fixtures against top clubs that they can sell to members and supporters - even if they are rubbish against them.
 

madmug

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#74
Clubs would never go for a divisonal system that includes pro-rel. Theres commercial considerations beyond TV that contribute just as much to the coffers of clubs if not more, and youd be asking half a dozen clubs to give up fixtures against top clubs that they can sell to members and supporters - even if they are rubbish against them.
Clubs are the reason they have a Commission. Self interest was the VFL biggest problem & led to the financial woes that nearly destroyed many clubs.

That apart, I couldn't see the AFL having the vision for anything much more than the status quo.

Pity really. It sounds like a great set up & would invigorate the season like never before.
 

Gigantor

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#75
Even if it's not a true 2nd division, being labelled as being in the so-called 2nd division would impact all forms of revenue, guaranteed.
 
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