Is The US Government A Fascist One?

[- PC -]

Came across this and written in 2003 , I do think it was directed at the US Government without naming them. The original author highlighted what he saw as the defining principles of Hitlers Germany, Francos Spain ,Mussolinis Italy and Suhartos Indonesia .What do you think? I think it comes very scarily to the mark , but hopefully some can

1. Point out the error of the original piece

2. Highlight what they see as Fascism and its principles.

I know RJ did a thread last July but he named 3 principles of Fascism. Do these 14 count?

14 Signs of Fascism

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

 

[Flag Man]

A resounding yes.

Australia, too.

 

[TheBloods]

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Yes, this is a key factor of fascism and it's arguable it applies to the US also.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

I think this is a bit of a stretch. Fascism recognises the state as being superior to the people and the people are there for the greater good of the state. However, fascism overrides the individual rights of the people in the country for the good of the state, and although the US does some strange things, it doesn't really get to this point of completely overwhelming the rights of the citizens.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Finding an enemy of the state is definitely a favourite of fascists as of the US.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

I think there are some reasonable comparisons on a military basis, including the willingness to use war to solve issues and the large amount of funding. However, the funding as a percentage of GDP has not been high in the US, only about 3-5% of GDP, not to high relative to other countries and way below that of fascists. The Nazis (which are arguably not the same as fascists, but good enough for this thread) geared most of their economy towards military expenditure.

Also the fascist saw war as glorious, fulfilling their 'myth focus', whereas I don't think that is the case in the US.

Additionally, the military had a free hand in fascist states domestically, often operating outside the law, whereas this is not really the case in the US.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

Sexism in fascist states was part of the aim to go back to traditional ways of life. I don't think this is really enormously evident in the US.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

The US has plenty of friendly media, however there is also an awful lot of unfriendly media, particularly on the internet, and there is no real sign of censorship, so I think there is no comparison here.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Yep, much the same as the common enemy argument above.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

This is wrong, for both fascists and the US. Fascists were not religious in the normal sense. They promoted myths about the country and the party and the leader, and the leader became semi-messianic, but not really a recognised religion. The US currently has a strong Christian Right influence, quite different from the fascists, and it's also not completely intertwined.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

I think this is overstated. Corporates were preferred and favoured above workers, which seems to be the case to some extent in the US now, however the corporates were also subordinate to the wishes of the state in a fascist regime, whereas the free market economy (which was an anathema to fascists) is still the crux of the US economy. Fascist economic ideals aren't really the same as the US either.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

Yes, although more extreme in fascist countries than the US.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

Yes in fascism, but not so much in the US.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

This is far more the case in Nazi Germany than Fascist Italy for example. It was a very powerful of aspect of Nazism. It's not really nearly so prevalent in the US, and police do not have limitless powers.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Yes, seen in both, but also seen in so many other places too, so not really a great comparative tool.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Elections were not fraudulent in either Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy. Arguable they're not in Bush's US either.

Other aspects of fascism:

Violence - a very important part of seizing and holding power in fascist countries, carried out by 'armies' and police forces. Not generally the case in the US.

Creation of myths - Fascism created fantastical stories as well as reinvented the past. All governments do that to some extent, so the US is also guilty of it a bit, but certainly nothing to the extent of the fascist states. Certainly we've seen little of the enormous rallies, parades, huge marches, etc that was seen in fascist countries.

Leadrer Principle/Fuhrerprinzip - Fascism is built around a strong and charismatic leader. This isn't really Bush.

Propaganda - Yes to both.

Collectivism - Fascist regimes believed in various activities and programmes that involved groups of people as a society and increased state involvement in their lives. This isn't really the case in the US.

Single Party State - Obviously not the case in the US, even though it is arguable that the two parties are not enormously different (which is a heretical statement to some).

There are a few other things too.

I don't think the current US Administration is fascist or could be considered fascist-like, however it does have some tendencies that are (although some of those are shared by other countries as well).

 

[- PC -]

Thanks NMW

On number 6 Controlled Mass Media does the implication on the Google issue over releasing ''search terms'' not breach this ?

 

[- PC -]

3/4 time so I have a few more minutes

I really do appreciate your efforts NMW but just a few questions
, on religion didnt Franco and Mussolini use Catholicism to further indent fear into the citizenry? I know GWB and co are not using fear but like the corporate world , doesnt the ''follow the leader'' game apply in the US? ie being seen to go to church and using God as the higher authority to decide moral arguments smacks of religious escapism.

I agree on 10 and 11. But the corporate issue is slowly rearing its head ie Walmart

I actually think the US is more concerned with punishment over rehabilitation and that can be a symbol of Fascism

Thanks for the extra definitions as well

Flag Man I was going to include Australia but to me ''bad'' Fascism is more about military strengths . Australia seems to have more media control issues ie play ball and we will look at changing laws etc

 

[Freo Big Fella]

Yes in fascism, but not so much in the US.

Are you serious? A day doesn't go by when there's some sort of anti-academic rant in the popular press or from a cretinous politicisn (both here and in the US). "Academic", "Arts Student" are coming close to being political epithets. There's obviously no censorship or violent arrests, but University Based academics and students (especially in the humanities) have faced constantly increasing attacks since 1996 in Australia and 2000 in the US.

Leadrer Principle/Fuhrerprinzip - Fascism is built around a strong and charismatic leader. This isn't really Bush.

I think if we ignore Bush for a moment and look at the near deification of the office of President, this actually makes more sense. One example (which has been brought up on here before I think) are the paralells between Hitlers arrival in Nuremburg in Triumph of the Will and footage of Kennedy's motorcade on the Zapruder film (or any Presidential inauguration for that matter) almost the same level of flag waving devotion from both crowds.


For example;

Of course it doesn't mean America is a Fascist country, but they certainly have some fascist leanings.

 

[Flag Man]

Ahem:

http://www.tupbiosystems.com/articles/bush_nazi.html

http://www.afrocubaweb.com/bushnazis.htm

 

[KissStephanie]

A resounding yes.

Australia, too.

It's not a "resounding yes," but the Bush administration has definitely been trying their hardest to take their government there. It's getting close, although Australia is nowhere near as close yet.

 

[TheBloods]

On number 6 Controlled Mass Media does the implication on the Google issue over releasing ''search terms'' not breach this ?

I doubt it. We wouldn't be having these conversations with people from the US if it was truly a fascist country.

Mussolini use Catholicism to further indent fear into the citizenry?

He allied himself with the Catholics simply to further his own ends, as he always did, but it was mainly about getting a chunk of the population on side as the Catholics campaigned heavily for him (and then he dumped them).

I know GWB and co are not using fear but like the corporate world , doesnt the ''follow the leader'' game apply in the US? ie being seen to go to church and using God as the higher authority to decide moral arguments smacks of religious escapism.

Fascists didn't really invoke god.

 

[TheBloods]

Are you serious? A day doesn't go by when there's some sort of anti-academic rant in the popular press or from a cretinous politicisn (both here and in the US). "Academic", "Arts Student" are coming close to being political epithets. There's obviously no censorship or violent arrests, but University Based academics and students (especially in the humanities) have faced constantly increasing attacks since 1996 in Australia and 2000 in the US.

Not really the same as persecuting them, imprisoning them, completely silencing them though.

I think if we ignore Bush for a moment and look at the near deification of the office of President, this actually makes more sense. One example (which has been brought up on here before I think) are the paralells between Hitlers arrival in Nuremburg in Triumph of the Will and footage of Kennedy's motorcade on the Zapruder film (or any Presidential inauguration for that matter) almost the same level of flag waving devotion from both crowds.

This is a reasonable comment. I was mainly thinking about Bush because I think it is his Administration rather than earlier ones that moves closer to fascism.

As far as the leader principle goes, many countries do push this to a very large extent, although US presidential elections would be at the forefront. I guess one of the biggest differences is the aspect of a dictator against an elected official with a limited tenure.

Of course it doesn't mean America is a Fascist country, but they certainly have some fascist leanings.

Yes, which I agreed with.

 

[Silvagnis]

Does this mean the People's Republic of China have a Fascist Government?

 

[TheBloods]

Does this mean the People's Republic of China have a Fascist Government?

The difference between Fascists and Communists is not particularly enormous - there are a number of similarities in these type of extreme totalitarian regimes.

 

[CharlieG]

Does this mean the People's Republic of China have a Fascist Government?

Yes, they are. They're no longer Communist - Deng made sure of that.

 

[CharlieG]

The difference between Fascists and Communists is not particularly enormous - there are a number of similarities in these type of extreme totalitarian regimes.

I have a friend who is fond of saying that 'if you bend the political spectrum far enough the ends will eventually meet'. I don't fascism and communism as the same thing by any stretch, but there are obviously strong parallels in the way they use and maintain power.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Politically they are not fascist yet. They still have a functioning republic not ruled by the military though the police forces have been increasingly militarised under both Clinton & Bush 2. Culturally they are fascist, insofar as the corporate media pushes the image anyway. The media is not completely dominated and dissidents are not abducted or killed, just marginalised. Although the FBI has resorted to false imprisonment and death as a last resort of dealing with unruly dissidents in the past. And the PATRIOT Act is being used to intimidate and police the normal population who have no ties whatsoever to terrorism. I think the US is heading towards a fascist government incrementally and like I said the culture is already fascist.

I think this is overstated. Corporates were preferred and favoured above workers, which seems to be the case to some extent in the US now, however the corporates were also subordinate to the wishes of the state in a fascist regime, whereas the free market economy (which was an anathema to fascists) is still the crux of the US economy. Fascist economic ideals aren't really the same as the US either.

Fascism should rather be called corporatism as it is the merger of state and corporate interests - Benito Mussolini creator of fascism

 

[Richo83]

Does this mean the People's Republic of China have a Fascist Government?

I'd more call it "totalitarian capitalism", not communism or facism.

If religion and government have to be intwined for a country to be facist, then the suppression of religion in China would mean China isn't facist.
Then again, it's said that facism creates an almost demi-god of it's leader. Would China's leaders fit that image post Mao?

Also, I don't think the Chinese government suppress elections, mainly because they don't have many, if at all.

There would be facist governments today, like NK. Any more?

 

[TheBloods]

I'd more call it "totalitarian capitalism", not communism or facism.

They're not really capitalist though. That implies a free market and they don't have that.

If religion and government have to be intwined for a country to be facist, then the suppression of religion in China would mean China isn't facist.

This is really not a fascist trait.

Then again, it's said that facism creates an almost demi-god of it's leader.

This is the 'religious' aspect of fascism.

Would China's leaders fit that image post Mao?

I don't think so.

Also, I don't think the Chinese government suppress elections, mainly because they don't have many, if at all.

Same thing.

 

[TheBloods]

Fascism should rather be called corporatism as it is the merger of state and corporate interests - Benito Mussolini creator of fascism

Yes I'm aware of what Mussolini said. But in reality he didn't always follow what he said - he tended to make it up as he went along.

 

[Richo83]

They're not really capitalist though. That implies a free market and they don't have that.

This is really not a fascist trait.

This is the 'religious' aspect of fascism.

I don't think so.

Same thing.

Yes but they do have some sort of booming economy, as a result of their desire to imporve trade and relations with the US.

I saw 15 KFC restaurants in Bejing CBD alone. Business is booming. Companies like Motorola and Nike are exploding into the Chinese market. It may be not "free" as such, but there is certinally that aspect of unchecked business growth and freedom of business growth in many aspects.

How would you think it is not free though? Restrictions? I don't know what you mean here.

 

[TheBloods]

Yes but they do have some sort of booming economy, as a result of their desire to imporve trade and relations with the US.

I saw 15 KFC restaurants in Bejing CBD alone. Business is booming. Companies like Motorola and Nike are exploding into the Chinese market. It may be not "free" as such, but there is certinally that aspect of unchecked business growth and freedom of business growth in many aspects.

How would you think it is not free though? Restrictions? I don't know what you mean here.

For example banks aren't free to do as they choose - the government directs their lending.

There are not well-defined property rights.

Much of the economy is still owned and directed by the government.

The currency is not freely convertible.

Other restrictions too.

 

[Murray]

Fascism and Totalitarianism (some ignorant people refer to as Communism) are very nearly the same thing.

The US is heading towards facism, but is contstrained to a degree by Congress, so a 'pure' fascist state is unlikely.
But in different areas of government, such as those controlled by the Military/White House, it will become totally fascist

 

[Richo83]

For example banks aren't free to do as they choose - the government directs their lending.

There are not well-defined property rights.

Much of the economy is still owned and directed by the government.

The currency is not freely convertible.

Other restrictions too.

True, IMO they still have large facets of capitalism Such as a large market sector that in many areas is allowed to grow exponentially. I'm no expert on what capitalism means, but they do have some aspects at least.

IIRC didn't Australia a few years back monitor their banks and the Aussie dollar? It seems like Australia imposed some of the things you mentionned before.

I know that you can convert the yuan into most European, Asian, American (both continents) and most African nations.

Property is officially owned by the state, with people and corporations just (as one Chinese official desribed it, "leasing a part of China to live".) They don't own the land, but own the building (or rent it or whatever). However, witht he push by corporations to have a large prescence in China, the government has had to ease the land restrictions currently in place. For example, Wal-Mart is building a mega complex in Shanghai that is (apparently) the largest shopping complex in the northern hemisphere (And I guess in the world.) so that restriction is lessening.

 

[Napolean]

The US has plenty of friendly media, however there is also an awful lot of unfriendly media, particularly on the internet, and there is no real sign of censorship, so I think there is no comparison here.

There lately has been moves in Congress to allow ISPs to control the content of what consumers can view. The push recently failed but it is an ominous sign and I am sure it is not the last that will be heard of it.

 

[- PC -]

Cant China be considered Socialist?

 

[CharlieG]

Cant China be considered Socialist?

Not really. They are a mixed economy with a declining public sector. The Iron Rice Bowl (guaranteed life employment and distribution of social welfare via industry) is virtually a thing of the past. Socialism - real socialism - involves control of key industries (check) by the proletariat (nope). Their economic system is more oligarchal capitalism than it is 'socialism with Chinese characteristics', as they like to call it.

They have an entrenched single-party state propped up by the military and a handful of corporations (most of which are from overseas, but that's beside the point). The only divergence from the classical fascist model is the lack of a current personality cult (Mao had one, but his government wasn't fascist). Even so, there have been fascist governments in the past where there either a personality cult (Hungary being one example).