USA Is the USA the worst nation to exist since classical times?

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Osho

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Well documented already are USA's horrors inflicted upon the world. I personally find their support of mass murderering regimes especially egregious, even long after the stunning details are revealed. Not to mention the murder of my wife's mother and two older siblings, who one morning were studying in the local school, their mother was the teacher. It had the misfortune of being located next to a train line.

Those external activities aside, the internal abuse by incarceration is shocking. It is true that a) rates have reduced since around 2012, and b) China almost certainly imprisons more people if the possible inventors of the abacus knew how to count properly. Not much mitigation though for the imprisoned in the US. Goes without saying not all folk are imprisoned equally.



 

Seeds

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By worst, I am rating them on body count, genocide, slavery, and block to advancing towards a more equitable sharing of power and wealth. I also think that the conservative movement of the US is the major driving force behind inaction for climate change and hence signed the death warrant for large organised societies.
Well you are wrong in regards to all those reasons.

body count? What dos that even mean. indirectly they probably have saved and created more lives then any other nation on the planet Over a 100 year period.

genocide? Not even in the top 30.

slavery? Yep they are up there Over the past 500 years.But that ended 170 years ago. Not really the same nation as today.

more equitable sharing of wealth and power? as a nation they have shared more then just about any other country. The marshall plan after the war. Helped get japan back off its feet. creating the imf to lend money to struggling nations. Within their own country they have issues. But they aint exactly latin america, africa or the middle east in regards to inequality now are they. And unlike those countries most rich people in the USA are self made people through creating new tech or services. They arent bad billionaires who get rich from inheritance and stealing resource rents. In fact a greater share of billionaires in australia are bad billionaires then in the USA. People who are super rich without contribution.

you need to get educated. Take a start by looking at china and russia and how their societies and governments operate.
 

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Seeds

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You're either dishonest or naive.
So are you actually going to provide arguments for anything that you are posting?

Cos at the moment it just seems like an uneducated emotional outburst. you have not provided a single argument to justify any of your assertions yet let alone question any alternative views put foward and try to show that they are invalid.

right now it seems like you are trolling your own thread. Put foward points and explain why that makes the usa the worst of all countries and civilisations?
 

Seeds

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In the aftermath of setting up the UN, the United States became as powerful a country as has ever existed. How did they succeed in the face of such sheer magnanimity?



A horrendous thing to say. The idea that innocent people should be killed because of issues with their Government was an atrocity when the World Trade Center was destroyed, and it was an atrocity when 15% of all North Korean people were killed in the Korean War.



We have just seen Russia attack a sovereign nation without provocation and with the world unable to do anything about it because it's a big country. The US has done the same in recent decades in Afghanistan and Iraq. Saudi Arabia has done the same in Yemen, and Israel continues to crush the Palestinian people. The reality is that the multilateralist order you speak of is non-existent, and nothing can stop a country powerful enough from doing whatever it wants. The US has supported this set up since 1945 because it has benefited from this.

I find the question of whether it's the "worst nation" a little odd (what kind of value judgment would this be?) but to argue it's been a positive force over the past 80 years, when it has actively fought to keep down the countries that have been able to throw themselves loose of the shackles of colonialism after hundreds of years of exploitation, even before we get into the fact it developed weapons capable of destroying the world and polluted to an extent that will likewise cause catastrophic damage to the planet, is really just sticking your head in the sand. You have benefited from American dominance, but acknowledge that billions globally have not.
The united states were the most powerful country in the world before they set up the UN.

but most powerful that ever existed? they certainly could of been if they decided to roll tanks across the planet and claim western europe, japan and latin america for themselves. They had the technology and wealth to do so and the other countries were defenceless.

they could of been even bigger then the mongolian and roman empires.

and yet they made land acquisition illegal through the UN which they set up. They created the human rights charter and pressured various dictstorships to agree to it.

why would an evil empire do that?
 

Saint

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Genghis Khan would have been amazed.
What do you think Genghis Khan would have done with the US military at his disposal? Have you read about how Genghis waged war? Dead/diseased bodies hurled over walls as biological siege warfare.

Sure, the scale of everything at the moment is a lot bigger. But no empire with such a disparate advantage in military might has been as restrained as the US is right now. The British weren't, the Russians weren't.

The invasion of Afghanistan was justified retaliation against a theocratic, barbarous regime. Even the Iraq War, I think was justified, even without the lies about WMDs. If Brutal, oppressive dictators are overthrown, that's a good thing. The overthrow of democracies like Iran and Chile was not.

And in the 18th century, every European nation was doing what the UK/US did in Nth America at the time. Just as Spain/Portugal had done in Sth America, same as what happened in Australia. I don't see the US Govt as being responsible for that any more than the Australian Commonwealth is responsible for the Aboriginal genocide in Australia.
 

spinynorman

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The united states were the most powerful country in the world before they set up the UN.

but most powerful that ever existed? they certainly could of been if they decided to roll tanks across the planet and claim western europe, japan and latin america for themselves. They had the technology and wealth to do so and the other countries were defenceless.

This is incredibly ignorant.

They used the most destructive weapons in human history to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in Japan and left generations with horrendous health problems for the remainder of their lives because they worried Japan would fall into the Soviet sphere of influence rather than the American one. They outsourced to death squads throughout South and Central America, installing and supporting dictators in countries such as Guatemala, Brazil, Chile, Bolivia, Argentina, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay and Haiti.
 

Osho

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Very much arguing against myself here, but it's well worth it...thanks MP.

"What have the Romans / Americans ever done for us?"

 

Major Colvin

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The united states were the most powerful country in the world before they set up the UN.

but most powerful that ever existed? they certainly could of been if they decided to roll tanks across the planet and claim western europe, japan and latin america for themselves. They had the technology and wealth to do so and the other countries were defenceless.

they could of been even bigger then the mongolian and roman empires.

and yet they made land acquisition illegal through the UN which they set up. They created the human rights charter and pressured various dictstorships to agree to it.

why would an evil empire do that?

The US does not adhere to the UN Charter, though. It's all for show as a facade of them to present themselves to the world as a benevolent empire, in favour of liberty and freedom.

But they still start wars/invade other countries illegally, violate human rights laws routinely. No Western powers will ever appear before the Hague for war crimes - only tinpot War Lords whom the West wants to make example of from time to time.

And the US realise in the mid-20th century it did not need to acquire land the way previous empires did in order to expand their wealth, power and influence. Just send its corporations into that land and extract all the valuable material - much like the first publicly traded companies, the Dutch and British East India companies did. The US's proxy wars during the Cold War was two-fold purpose. Drive out communist influence, yes. But more importantly, to install of compliant puppet regimes that would allow the US to lay claim to much of its resources. Now with the considerable wealth its built up pillaging much of the globe it has amassed enormous amounts of intellectual property rights.

The US are no worse or better than previous empires, they have done what all previous empires do which is to relentlessly pursue and expand it's influence and power. However, unlike previous times in history, the damage being inflicted on the planet as a result of this relentless pursuit wealth and to maintain the consumer culture, is unprecedented.
 

Seeds

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This is incredibly ignorant.

They used the most destructive weapons in human history to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in Japan and left generations with horrendous health problems for the remainder of their lives because they worried Japan would fall into the Soviet sphere of influence rather than the American one. They outsourced to death squads throughout South and Central America, installing and supporting dictators in countries such as Guatemala, Brazil, Chile, Bolivia, Argentina, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay and Haiti.
You mean the japanese dictatorship that attacked them first? and the nukes ended the war far earlier then it would of otherwise and probsbly saved millions of lives in the process. Although i do wonder if they could of been targetted in a way to have less civilian impact but make the same point.

This historian thinks it saved 30 million lives

i dont know what point tyou are making about the soviets. But if the soviets are worse then they are well worse then the americans now aint they?
 

Schneebly11

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You mean the japanese dictatorship that attacked them first? and the nukes ended the war far earlier then it would of otherwise and probsbly saved millions of lives in the process. Although i do wonder if they could of been targetted in a way to have less civilian impact but make the same point.

This historian thinks it saved 30 million lives

The US had been arming China in the Sino Japanese war as far back as 1937. Pre Pearl Harbor US military pilots (the Flying Tigers) has been flying combat missions as part of the RoCAF against Japan. Not to mention the cutting off of Japan’s oil pre war. So Pearl Harbor wasn’t the first engagement in the US Japanese conflict.

With regards to the nukes the notion of “we needed to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki because it convinced Japan to surrender before a massive conventional invasion that would’ve cost millions of lives” myth has been debunked time after time.

Japan was almost ready to surrender. The Yanks had broken the Japanese code and knew they were weeks away from surrendering at most. The evidence was the Soviet invasion of Manchuria had a greater influence on the decision to surrender.

US commanders like Eisenhower, MacArthur, Nimitz, Halsey and LeMay stated the nukes were unnecessary.

Evidence that the prime motive of the US dropping the bomb was to warn the Soviets to stay out of the Far East post war.
 

Demonic Ascent

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Most of those places should of been bombed given they were either run by horrorfic dictatorships or were involved in wars where dictators were trying to take over.
Horrific dictatorships that the US black ops/intelligence teams helped install in the first place
 

fishardansin

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Well you are wrong in regards to all those reasons.

body count? What dos that even mean. indirectly they probably have saved and created more lives then any other nation on the planet Over a 100 year period.

genocide? Not even in the top 30.

slavery? Yep they are up there Over the past 500 years.But that ended 170 years ago. Not really the same nation as today.

more equitable sharing of wealth and power? as a nation they have shared more then just about any other country. The marshall plan after the war. Helped get japan back off its feet. creating the imf to lend money to struggling nations. Within their own country they have issues. But they aint exactly latin america, africa or the middle east in regards to inequality now are they. And unlike those countries most rich people in the USA are self made people through creating new tech or services. They arent bad billionaires who get rich from inheritance and stealing resource rents. In fact a greater share of billionaires in australia are bad billionaires then in the USA. People who are super rich without contribution.

you need to get educated. Take a start by looking at china and russia and how their societies and governments operate.

The Marshal plan is the one great move they did in international relations. It was great for them and others. If only they treated everyone like that, no matter their politics or stage of development. They would have created a more stable world and reaped the benefits. China is filling this breach. All of my African friends are highly impressed with what China is doing and remain disgusted at what the US has done in Africa.
 

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Saint

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The US had been arming China in the Sino Japanese war as far back as 1937. Pre Pearl Harbor US military pilots (the Flying Tigers) has been flying combat missions as part of the RoCAF against Japan. Not to mention the cutting off of Japan’s oil pre war. So Pearl Harbor wasn’t the first engagement in the US Japanese conflict.

With regards to the nukes the notion of “we needed to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki because it convinced Japan to surrender before a massive conventional invasion that would’ve cost millions of lives” myth has been debunked time after time.

Japan was almost ready to surrender. The Yanks had broken the Japanese code and knew they were weeks away from surrendering at most. The evidence was the Soviet invasion of Manchuria had a greater influence on the decision to surrender.

US commanders like Eisenhower, MacArthur, Nimitz, Halsey and LeMay stated the nukes were unnecessary.

Evidence that the prime motive of the US dropping the bomb was to warn the Soviets to stay out of the Far East post war.
A surrender during a war where everyone knows there are millions of lives still to be lost is a lot different to a surrender where a country has been completely overwhelmed in a war it no longer can even pretend it could win. A bunch of military men upset that the war didn't drag on for another few weeks or months isn't really proof. Didn't MacArthur want to nuke the CHinese during the Korean war?

Whether the US went to far by dropping them is debatable. That the US was justified in overwhelming the Japanese empire such that it fully capitulated isn't.

Imagine if the Japanese surrender had included them continuing their Imperial expansionist military actions.
 

CD Xbow

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Very much arguing against myself here, but it's well worth it...thanks MP.

"What have the Romans / Americans ever done for us?"


Finally someone posted it.

What did the Americans ever do for us?

The UN.
The Internet.
Mass production
Integrated circuits and PC's
GPS
Post WWII Marshall plan
Mobile Phones
Microwave ovens, important because without them microwave popcorn could not exist, which is also a US invention.
Most forms of 20th and 21st century music are mostly 'American'
Free public education
Most new media forms
The Ferris wheel
Defeated Nazism and outlasted the Soviets
Lasers & LED's
A belief in freedom, liberty and human rights - not always reflected in their actions, but they are strong beliefs.

Most our modern technological age has been invented and developed in the US, as have many of the social changes of the last few hundred years. At their best they are brilliant, at their worst they can be monsters. An American empire remans a vastly more attractive one than a 21st century version of the middle kingdom.
 

Osho

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Finally someone posted it.

What did the Americans ever do for us?

The UN.
The Internet.
Mass production
Integrated circuits and PC's
GPS
Post WWII Marshall plan
Mobile Phones
Microwave ovens, important because without them microwave popcorn could not exist, which is also a US invention.
Most forms of 20th and 21st century music are mostly 'American'
Free public education
Most new media forms
The Ferris wheel
Defeated Nazism and outlasted the Soviets
Lasers & LED's
A belief in freedom, liberty and human rights - not always reflected in their actions, but they are strong beliefs.

Most our modern technological age has been invented and developed in the US, as have many of the social changes of the last few hundred years. At their best they are brilliant, at their worst they can be monsters. An American empire remans a vastly more attractive one than a 21st century version of the middle kingdom.
The Ferris Wheel. ROAR!
Electric guitar? Possibly...
 

Seeds

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To answer your question.
No1 Israel
No2 America
No3 Belgium.
Where does russia sit in the last 70 years. You know with their purges of intellectuals and any political opposition, various massacres and attempts and land theft, deep seated conservatism, failure to improve the living standards of its people.


how about nth korea?
 

Saint

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Israel? Sure they are a horror show on a patch of land on the eastern Mediterranean, but c'mon. Israel is an extension of American anti-semitism anyhow. They are supporting the right-wing powers that have captured Israel and committed atrocities against Semitic people with an even more dangerous religion! It is weird to watch those American types who 50 years ago would not let Jews join the country club now supporting Israel to destroy Palestine.

Belgium committed unspeakable atrocities in the Congo, but I look at the lasting impact. The Congo won their independence and is coming back. I look forward to the revival of African economies now that their baby boom has ceased and China is investing in a less exploitative way than the US/IMF. They are poised for great things.

I put
1. Britain/USA

daylight


...

2 Spain
4. Portugal
3. Holland
4. Belgium

..

Then we're back to medieval times which was mostly people trying to be the dominant political power in their region. Not sailing across the world to murder and pillage.
This is all very Euro-centric.

There have been way more horrible people leading nations than any leaders of any of those nations.

Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Habyarimana, Charles Taylor, Viljoen/Botha, al-Bashir, Idi Amin, Mobutu, Than Shwe, Mullah Omar, Karimov.

These people hated and killed their own people with a blood-thirst which can't even be comprehended in Europe.
 

madmug

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1. half the world doesnt even have democracy. And the majority that do probably wouldnt have it without the usa showing them how to do it. I state they are far from perfect by the way. What we are debating is if they are the worst nation to exist.

2. dont need a un to have allies and benefits when you are the biggest most powerful country in the world. The un pushes multilateralism which gives all the small countries more power at the negotiating table and takes away the benefits of being the bigger country in a negotiation. Rather then big countries being able to extract rents as has always been the case through human historythey had to operate under international law. The un also made stealing and claiming land as your own illegal. Which countries tend to steal land? The biggest and most powerful. Which was the US. The US claimed non of Europe after the war. None of East Asia. In fact it helped develop its world war 2 enemy, Japan, into a modern superpower Rather then taking over and making it a territory of the united states.
What have the Romans ever done for us?
The Aqueduct!
What? yes, well.
Sanitation!
Etc, :D
 

Fyfe! The Musical

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This thread title is a joke, right?

I mean they are no saints, but do you even know anything about the USSR, The Third Reich, or even China's worst moments?

Never mind the African despots that nobody in the West seems to care about.
The US invented, in past 150 or so years:

Semiconductors
Internet
99% of software that has ever been written
The plane
Lightbulb
Recorded music
Multiple vaccines including polio.

Pretty good record IMO.
 

Fyfe! The Musical

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Finally someone posted it.

What did the Americans ever do for us?

The UN.
The Internet.
Mass production
Integrated circuits and PC's
GPS
Post WWII Marshall plan
Mobile Phones
Microwave ovens, important because without them microwave popcorn could not exist, which is also a US invention.
Most forms of 20th and 21st century music are mostly 'American'
Free public education
Most new media forms
The Ferris wheel
Defeated Nazism and outlasted the Soviets
Lasers & LED's
A belief in freedom, liberty and human rights - not always reflected in their actions, but they are strong beliefs.

Most our modern technological age has been invented and developed in the US, as have many of the social changes of the last few hundred years. At their best they are brilliant, at their worst they can be monsters. An American empire remans a vastly more attractive one than a 21st century version of the middle kingdom.
LOL someone already said it. Anyway, as you have indicated, the modern world is founded on American inventions and ingenuity.
 

Seeds

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This thread title is a joke, right?

I mean they are no saints, but do you even know anything about the USSR, The Third Reich, or even China's worst moments?

Never mind the African despots that nobody in the West seems to care about.
This is the thread for people who have matured enough to question authority but are still too lazy to bother to educate themselves about history and what happens outside of western countries.
 
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