Is there an afterlife?

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PA HOG

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#27
Birdy said:
Thats basically it but it is God who judges not us. The next question is always: does this mean we can go out and sin all we want. The answer of course is no.




So the first method of achieving eternal life was superceded by the "believing" method. Assuming there wasn't a period of grace when both systems ran in tandem, what was the changeover date? Now I'm not being silly wanting the day and month, but was there a significant date like his birthdate, baptism, crucifiction or resurrection? An occasion of such magnitude must be well and truly recorded.
 

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#28
Kirky tell your client that existence beyond the body is fundamental. But mention at least in passing that god is a load of crap. Done astral travel heaps. Next time you see your client pose the question. "where do you go when you fall asleep". Should be reassuring.
 

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#29
PA HOG said:
So the first method of achieving eternal life was superceded by the "believing" method. Assuming there wasn't a period of grace when both systems ran in tandem, what was the changeover date? Now I'm not being silly wanting the day and month, but was there a significant date like his birthdate, baptism, crucifiction or resurrection? An occasion of such magnitude must be well and truly recorded.
I don't think there is any specific date but it is when people hear the word of Christ and of His resurrection. The question of whether people who have not heard about Christ are saved is common. We know that God is just and we can assume that God would judge those righteously.
 

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#30
There are two ways you can tell that someone's an idiot- if they declare with certainty that they know there is or isn't an afterlife.

All you can say is that there is no evidence either way. People might have some kind of existence after they die, but its really something we're just all going to have to find out for ourselves sooner or later.

I do have a problem with the hardheaded humanist type people who declare with certainty that there's nothing after death- 500 years ago, hardheaded, humanist type people would have thought electricity was a joke.
 

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#32
kirky said:
Discussing with a client today who has been diagnosed with cancer who bought up a good point. When you have an operation and they put you under on the operating table, do you ever remember anything during that time (no dreaming, no consciousness or subconsciousness)? You go into the operating theatre and the next thing your in the recovery room with no recollections in between. Perhaps the same things happens - it becomes one big blank of nothing and you don't even know you are gone.
Thats bound to scare the religious ones of this world......

I admit I am deathly scared of what confronts me or the nothingness that may follow..the fear is that what I do now doesnt mean a thing ..

I saw a program which put it into some sort of perspective..basically what they asked was''do you remember from before you were born?'' what they were getting at is that is what death is.

Oh by the way I woke up in an operation once..noticed I had a fat and they let it out to breathe :eek: saw it stuffed it back and went back to sleep
 

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#33
according to Bush supporters there is an afterlife, its called heaven and it has giant houses with picket fences and many white faces, this is what fundamentalist christians think
 

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#34
Birdy said:
I don't think there is any specific date but it is when people hear the word of Christ and of His resurrection. The question of whether people who have not heard about Christ are saved is common. We know that God is just and we can assume that God would judge those righteously.


I'm not a little amazed to learn that the introduction of the second system was just eased in somehow but, be that as it may, here's another question.


Why, in his famous conversation with Nicodemus, did Jesus say, "Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." As you can't have the born again experience if you've not heard of Jesus this introduces some technical difficulties. It's unlikely that God and Jesus would disagree with each other so it appears that Jesus might have been telling a little porkie if what you are saying is correct. Have I read you correctly? You feel that despite Jesus' teachings you have determined that you still have a chance if you haven't heard the message.


Birdy, I love discussing these things. Thank you for your patience and the civility of your responses. Most believers drop off after being questioned by other posters, or get a little rude.
 

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#35
Mead said:
There are two ways you can tell that someone's an idiot- if they declare with certainty that they know there is or isn't an afterlife.

All you can say is that there is no evidence either way. People might have some kind of existence after they die, but its really something we're just all going to have to find out for ourselves sooner or later.

I do have a problem with the hardheaded humanist type people who declare with certainty that there's nothing after death- 500 years ago, hardheaded, humanist type people would have thought electricity was a joke.
Excellent point.

I suppose the purpose of a Politics, Cultural and Social forum is to discuss such topics openly, but it does become somewhat scary when people start laying down the law either way.

The question is, does there have to be evidence against an afterlife, for it not to be true? I mean, isn't there enough evidence against it (the fact that nobody has ever seen or felt or been in one, without being labeled a total nutter)?

If you're going to claim something exists, then technically, it doesn't exist until proved true...Right?
 
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Admin #36
Mead said:
I do have a problem with the hardheaded humanist type people who declare with certainty that there's nothing after death- 500 years ago, hardheaded, humanist type people would have thought electricity was a joke.
That is really such a bad analogy. As a concept, electricty did not exist, it wasn't simply a case of believing or not. Science has got it wrong plenty of times and there is still huge amounts of uncertainty around. For example now there is still uncertainty and dispute over whther certain types of particles exist in the quantum world.

But whether a scientist actually believes something or not, at the very least they all agree that there is some evidence that could be interpreted, rightly or wrongly, that a particular theory holds true.

But with the afterlife, there is nothing, not a jot of evidence to even suggest that such a thing as afterlife might be possible. The only thing that supports it is religion, an irrepressible refusal to come to to grips with the fact that when life stops and you draw your last breath, that's it.
 

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#37
The only thing that supports it is religion, an irrepressible refusal to come to to grips with the fact that when life stops and you draw your last breath, that's it.
I am not a follower of any particular religion.

However, something prevents me from believing 'it just ends'. It's more so the question of where we come from, than 'where we go' that bothers me.
 

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Thread starter #38
Jim Boy said:
But with the afterlife, there is nothing, not a jot of evidence to even suggest that such a thing as afterlife might be possible. The only thing that supports it is religion, an irrepressible refusal to come to to grips with the fact that when life stops and you draw your last breath, that's it.
Spot on. Some people have faith and believe in religion otherwise they would have nothing in life and cannot accept the possibility this is it and nothing more.

One's religious beliefs has seen over the centuries, millions of people die needlessly and for what cause? To create more suffering and more killing.
 

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#40
Jim Boy said:
That is really such a bad analogy. As a concept, electricty did not exist, it wasn't simply a case of believing or not. Science has got it wrong plenty of times and there is still huge amounts of uncertainty around. For example now there is still uncertainty and dispute over whther certain types of particles exist in the quantum world.
Perhaps a better analogy would be the flat-earth concept of the universe stemming from a lack of understanding of gravity?

Something that was believed as just plain common sense, that the earth had to be flat or people would fall off...

Jim Boy said:
But whether a scientist actually believes something or not, at the very least they all agree that there is some evidence that could be interpreted, rightly or wrongly, that a particular theory holds true.

But with the afterlife, there is nothing, not a jot of evidence to even suggest that such a thing as afterlife might be possible. The only thing that supports it is religion, an irrepressible refusal to come to to grips with the fact that when life stops and you draw your last breath, that's it.
There is an enormous amount of anecdotal evidence relating to near death experiences- the bright light/tunnel/feeling warm and safe scenario is universal enough to appear not concocted.

Now of course that could be hallucinations caused by synapses firing at random under the obvious stress of.. well.. carking it, with the rest filled in by confabulation and whatnot, but I think it at least merits an open mind.

The reality is that whilst there is not a jot of hard evidence to support an after life, there is not a jot of evidence to support the idea that death is the end of all existence either- self awareness doesn't appear to begin at birth- for most people it seems to be around the age of 2 or 3, so who's to say that self awareness is definitely tied to having a functional brain supplied with oxygen?

Without getting mystical or new-agey about it, the reality is that there is plenty about human existence that science doesn't understand yet. I have no idea whether there is any afterlife and if so what form it takes, but I think the only sensible approach is agnosticism- if you're trying to say with absolute certainty that death is the end of all existence, then that is really as much as a statement of faith as believing in an afterlife is- neither can be conclusively proven by evidence.
 

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#41
demon_dave said:
no , not in my book
Chapter & passage?:D

Just incase i need it for future reference. ;)

As suggested there is little evidence to support an afterlife although all major religons have it as a pillar of there faith.

Anecdotal incidents such as near death experiences do however offer many a platform to suggest that there is something more. I dont doubt that many of these incidents do happen, but whether one could attribute them to the proof of an afterlife is far from conclusive.

My own view is that we have but one existence and thats it. To those who believe however ....well more power to you. If it sustains and and enriches ones lifes experiences then who am I to argue.
 

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#42
There is an enormous amount of anecdotal evidence relating to near death experiences- the bright light/tunnel/feeling warm and safe scenario is universal enough to appear not concocted.

Some astronauts who undergo intensive g-force training also encounter brightlight/tunnel effects prior to passing out, a feature which is
characteristic of some of those who also undergo near death experiences.

Other explanations for the serene,mystical like features that some describe is a way in which the brain prepares it subject for death by releasing chemicals like endorphin,etc proir to them dying.
 

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#43
Ive seen an afterbirth.

As for an afterlife, well does it really matter. If there isnt, well what will it matter. If there is, then good and well.
 

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#44
Jim Boy said:
But with the afterlife, there is nothing, not a jot of evidence to even suggest that such a thing as afterlife might be possible. The only thing that supports it is religion, an irrepressible refusal to come to to grips with the fact that when life stops and you draw your last breath, that's it.
Do we really need evidence to suggest that something is possible?
 

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#45
Why, in his famous conversation with Nicodemus, did Jesus say, "Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." As you can't have the born again experience if you've not heard of Jesus this introduces some technical difficulties. It's unlikely that God and Jesus would disagree with each other so it appears that Jesus might have been telling a little porkie if what you are saying is correct. Have I read you correctly? You feel that despite Jesus' teachings you have determined that you still have a chance if you haven't heard the message.
The question of how God will judge those who never had a chance to hear his message is one that only God can answer. What God is more concerned about is those who do hear and understand His message but choose to reject that message and speak out against Him.

People are ultimately responsible for what has been revealed to them both in nature and their own heart. We are also told that the responsibility is greater for those who have had more revealed to them.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (Luke 12:48).

To be born again means to accept the word of God in our hearts and to have a living hope of the kingdom of God. It is the spiritual transformation that allows us to understand spiritual things and to have a relationship with God.

Only God knows what is truly painted on our hearts and I believe that He knows who would and who wouldn't become born again had they the chance to hear his word.

Birdy, I love discussing these things. Thank you for your patience and the civility of your responses. Most believers drop off after being questioned by other posters, or get a little rude.
Yes it can be tempting for some people to lose their temper, I have been guilty of it in the past, but it is not the Christian way.
 

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#46
Shaitan said:
I am not a follower of any particular religion.

However, something prevents me from believing 'it just ends'. It's more so the question of where we come from, than 'where we go' that bothers me.
I came from my dads sac


I have searched and searched and watched for omens ,portents and signs..still waiting for Yoko to declare the white rose was laid on her pillow and the white dove rested upon her shoulder.

One of the concerns with anything like that is a sceptic will point to serendipity and coincidence while someone who needs comfort and respite from the fears within will grab at anything .

Do I believe in life after death? Dont know...I have studied a lot of religions and after death beliefs and have rested upon the Hindu belief in reincarnation and the 7 steps towards spiritual attainment...not bragging or anything but I didnt get this wise or knowing in one lifetime :eek:
 

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#47
Birdy said:
The question of how God will judge those who never had a chance to hear his message is one that only God can answer. What God is more concerned about is those who do hear and understand His message but choose to reject that message and speak out against Him.

People are ultimately responsible for what has been revealed to them both in nature and their own heart. We are also told that the responsibility is greater for those who have had more revealed to them.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (Luke 12:48).

To be born again means to accept the word of God in our hearts and to have a living hope of the kingdom of God. It is the spiritual transformation that allows us to understand spiritual things and to have a relationship with God.

Only God knows what is truly painted on our hearts and I believe that He knows who would and who wouldn't become born again had they the chance to hear his word.


Yes it can be tempting for some people to lose their temper, I have been guilty of it in the past, but it is not the Christian way.
Hypocrisy of christianity thread.
 

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#48
purplesoul said:
Why? they're not going to agree with you. The promise of life after death is probably the main reason that people have faith.
Indeed it is. That is where "Godfearing people" comes from.

But there are many that will attest to experiences whilst being operated on and others with neardeath experiences.
I guess history say that we only know of Jesus coming back from Death, and belief in him is a personal issue.
 

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#49
Hey what about children/babies who arent mentally devloped enough to learn about God, and what about some areas of certain countries where Christianity is never heard of? Seems to be a flaw in the message delivery.
Sorry, this should be in the hypocracy thread as well.
 

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#50
The question of whether or not we exist beyond the body is not really a religious issue. Its an evolutionary one if anything. Where does a dream occur? On atomic matter. Or where. That is the first question to ask.
 
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