Is Toby Greene the best small forward of the century?

[Alwaysacrow]

Eddie Betts says hi.

 

[RonnieRaven]

No where near it only kicked 50+ goals once in his career.
Milne did it 6x
Betts 5x (kicked 75 one year)
The two above are clearly better and in my opinion the best 2
Breust and Brad Johnson

Brad Johnson

Age

49

Ht

182cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.7

5star

K

14.1

5star

HB

5.6

4star

M

5.9

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.5

5star

No current season stats available

D

12.8

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

2.6

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

1.2

3star

G

0.6

3star

in my opinion are not small fwds both 6ft tall and played the general fwd role( I put betts and Milne above them anyway)

 

[Walshawk]

No where near it only kicked 50+ goals once in his career.
Milne did it 6x
Betts 5x (kicked 75 one year)
The two above are clearly better and in my opinion the best 2
Breust and Brad Johnson in my opinion are not small fwds both 6ft tall and played the general fwd role( I put betts and Milne above them anyway)

When I think of small forwards, I think of crumbing goals and running goals. So, Betts, Milne, Bruest. Johnston was more of a target, Greene somewhere in between. His goals average is surprisingly low.

 

[Mr Meow]

When I think of small forwards, I think of crumbing goals and running goals. So, Betts, Milne, Bruest. Johnston was more of a target, Greene somewhere in between. His goals average is surprisingly low.

You simply can't compare them on raw goal averages.

Johnson had significant midfield time for his first 11 seasons, before staying closer to home for the last 5. He also had a big statistical drop off during his last 2 years. Between say 1997 and 2008 Johnson was absolutely an elite forward/mid, one of the very best in the game during that whole period.

 

[RonnieRaven]

When I think of small forwards, I think of crumbing goals and running goals. So, Betts, Milne, Bruest. Johnston was more of a target, Greene somewhere in between. His goals average is surprisingly low.

I don’t go career goal ave I normally compare players peak with a minimum of 3 years.
1 year can be an anomaly and career has to many variables
Toby kicking 50+ goals once puts him a mile away from being the best small fwd of the century

 

[Meteoric Rise]

No where near it only kicked 50+ goals once in his career.
Milne did it 6x
Betts 5x (kicked 75 one year)
The two above are clearly better and in my opinion the best 2
Breust and Brad Johnson in my opinion are not small fwds both 6ft tall and played the general fwd role( I put betts and Milne above them anyway)

Tiprat averaged 2.7 goals + assists in his career. In 16 finals he averaged under 2.

Cyril averaged 2.5 goals + assists in his career, so 93% of Tiprat's scoreboard impact in all games from a hell of a lot less time spent around the goal mouth. In his 19 finals he averaged 2.3 goals + assists, comfortably above Milne.

Rioli and Greene play/ed predominately forward and were not key forwards or hybrids. They are small forwards. If you put either in Milne's role permanently like he was, I would confidently say they they would produce more goals and assists.

 

[RonnieRaven]

Tiprat averaged 2.7 goals + assists in his career. In 16 finals he averaged under 2.

Cyril averaged 2.5 goals + assists in his career, so 93% of Tiprat's scoreboard impact in all games from a hell of a lot less time spent around the goal mouth. In his 19 finals he averaged 2.3 goals + assists, comfortably above Milne.

Rioli and Greene play/ed predominately forward and were not key forwards or hybrids. They are small forwards. If you put either in Milne's role permanently like he was, I would confidently say they they would produce more goals and assists.

And Dangerfield would kick more goals than Jack Reiwoldt if he played Jacks position his whole career is that where we are headed really?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

And Dangerfield would kick more goals than Jack Reiwoldt if he played Jacks position his whole career is that where we are headed really?

The big difference is Rioli had over 90% as many goals and assists as Milne, spending a lot of his time away from goals. With Dangerfield v Riewoldt it is a lot bigger leap to make.

 

[boncer34]

Tiprat averaged 2.7 goals + assists in his career. In 16 finals he averaged under 2.

Cyril averaged 2.5 goals + assists in his career, so 93% of Tiprat's scoreboard impact in all games from a hell of a lot less time spent around the goal mouth. In his 19 finals he averaged 2.3 goals + assists, comfortably above Milne.

Rioli and Greene play/ed predominately forward and were not key forwards or hybrids. They are small forwards. If you put either in Milne's role permanently like he was, I would confidently say they they would produce more goals and assists.

It wasn't Leon Davis 2002 bad but Tiprats 2009 Grand Final performance was very poor for a player of his quality.

 

[Mr Meow]

It wasn't Leon Davis 2002 bad but Tiprats 2009 Grand Final performance was very poor for a player of his quality.

To be fair he was coming up against a running wingman who we decided to make a lockdown defender for a day (James Kelly). Nobody could handle that twist.

 

[RonnieRaven]

The big difference is Rioli had over 90% as many goals and assists as Milne, spending a lot of his time away from goals. With Dangerfield v Riewoldt it is a lot bigger leap to make.

Ok our opinion differ on Milne
The best in my opinion is betts anyway
His first 4 years at the crows was
Top shelf

 

[boncer34]

Ok our opinion differ on Milne
The best in my opinion is betts anyway
His first 4 years at the crows was
Top shelf

I remember thinking around 2010/2011 that Betts, Garlett and Yarran would help launch Carlton into a decade of dominance.

 

[Piggy Smalls]

Not top 3. Milne, Boomer Harvey, Eddie Betts all miles better.

Really Greene plays more like a medium hybrid marking/small, where Gunston, Elliot, Stevie J have him covered, he's more on par with a JDG who is brought down to Greene's level by injury.

Massively improved from being an arse with potential to being a very good player.

Not a great captain either.

Suffers from being an AFL media unit project. The flog tepeatedly kicking opponents on the face was spun as him being unpredictable. Now he cheats less it's "redemption arc" and when he doesn't lose games through brainfarts its "great captain".

Is it fair to say that late in the day he finally has a coach to unlock his potential? A lot of Giants in this boat, buckets of talent but fI r a long time let down by less developed support.

Maybe the AFL spent all the money on the media unit and Sheedy when th ey needed a football dept and good coaches.

Just quietly, I reckon it's a lack of professionalism that drags JDG down. I'd rather have Jake Stringer than overrated Jordy boy.

 

[Robroy22]

Jamie Elliot has pretty similar stats averages to Toby, though Toby has him for AA's, B+F's and suspensions.
If Billy had have played as many games as Toby...and hadn't missed those 2-3 years through injury....he may have been held in similar degree of respect by other AFL supporters.

Didak wasn't too shabby either!

And Bobby Hill.......whooah....

 

[Piggy Smalls]

Steven Milne would have to be up there.

Ballantyne was my favourite.

 

[Piggy Smalls]

Actually, is Phil Matera eligible for this century? If so, he's your guy. Unbelievable player.

 

[Cyclops]

Just quietly, I reckon it's a lack of professionalism that drags JDG down. I'd rather have Jake Stringer than overrated Jordy boy.

I'd say fitness is JDG's main problem, keeps copping injuries. We do rate him highly and he hasn't got on the park this year so while i'd love to disagree you have a point.

Definitely Toby is more on Stringer's level, shit bloke who produces some onfield magic but you have to wonder if its worth having such a scumbag around the place.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Ok our opinion differ on Milne
The best in my opinion is betts anyway
His first 4 years at the crows was
Top shelf

Rioli was rated between 9th and 26th highest in the AFL based on average performance over the 5 years 2012-2016, with minimal time in the midfield, and was probably similar for at least 3 or 4 years prior to that but there are no ratings available. None of these other guys are anywhere near that level, especially over that many seasons. It is likely Rioli was in the top 4 rated forwards(including key forwards, mid-forwards and general forwards) in the AFL for something like 8 seasons. And if you reduce it to players who spent 80+% of their game time forward he is probably top 2 in almost all those seasons.

It does get hard to compare a player like Betts who was nearly always around the goal mouth, but Betts is clearly the best of that type of player in the AFL era. Rioli is the best all round small forward and Greene the second best. Guys like Robbie Gray are much harder to judge as forwards because they spent so much time in the midfield.

But if you were picking a team to play for your life, and you can have any of the following within you 4 general(or small) forwards, Milne is not even getting a look in:

Betts, Greene, C Rioli, R Gray, D Martin.

Total different calibre of footballer, regardless of role.

 

[Robroy22]

Elliott has been a no show in September throughout the years.
Needs a big one in a couple of months time.

In contrast, Greene is quite the opposite. Even now with Elliott having a better season, you would still back in Greene to come through strong in the finals as he's a complete player on all fronts.

No doubt Toby is a big game player, but he also plays a far more "greedy" game than Elliot. Toby has always had to step up and light the fire for the Giants. In terms of their abilities to take marks and kick goals Toby and Billy are pretty similar.

 

[Cyclops]

Elliott has superior hops. Better overhead.
Greene's ability to find his own footy by shifting up and around the ground is as good as any small forward over the past decade. Akermanis did so a lot throughout his career. Brad Johnson was arguably a master of it (despite playing much his taller than listed height).

My view on Aker is he was an elite rover who was so good at scoring they parked him up forwar. Still counts as an elite small forward of course.

Not sure about the discussion around Milne, I hate the bloke but he was a very skilled and super effective forward, in my view hes in the discussion with Betts and Johnson as the best ive seen.

Greene a level or two below that.

The point about "selfish" players is interesting and some good points being made. Peter Daicos wasn a "selfish" kick for goal, KB, Milne too, but someone has ro kick them. Sometimes that's the plan.

 

[Lingsface]

Elliott has superior hops. Better overhead.
Greene's ability to find his own footy by shifting up and around the ground is as good as any small forward over the past decade. Akermanis did so a lot throughout his career. Brad Johnson was arguably a master of it (despite playing much his taller than listed height).

Elliot will end up with less goals than Gary Ablett jnr in his career. Fun Fact. Ablett stays as a forward pocket his whole career , what he started as how many does he kick? 650?

 

[My Tilly]

Still the best small forward in the game.

You just know he's going to deliver in the upcoming finals series