Is Toby Greene the best small forward of the century?

[TheEscapeClub]

Aker

 

[Golumless]

Deserves to be in the conversation of best small forward this century, but not the answer.

 

[Lingsface]

Not top 3. Milne, Boomer Harvey, Eddie Betts all miles better.

Really Greene plays more like a medium hybrid marking/small, where Gunston, Elliot, Stevie J have him covered, he's more on par with a JDG who is brought down to Greene's level by injury.

Massively improved from being an arse with potential to being a very good player.

Not a great captain either.

Suffers from being an AFL media unit project. The flog tepeatedly kicking opponents on the face was spun as him being unpredictable. Now he cheats less it's "redemption arc" and when he doesn't lose games through brainfarts its "great captain".

Is it fair to say that late in the day he finally has a coach to unlock his potential? A lot of Giants in this boat, buckets of talent but fI r a long time let down by less developed support.

Maybe the AFL spent all the money on the media unit and Sheedy when th ey needed a football dept and good coaches.

Your username has been confused, you are a one eyed object but not a Cyclops.

 

[Mr Meow]

Breust keeps flying under the radar in these discussions but he's kicked 550 goals and was the definition of consistency (especially for a position which can be quite flaky in terms of performances) for a better part of 12 seasons. Excellent defensively as well.

Agree. Better than Rioli.

 

[Mr Meow]

Akermanis played more midfield than some of the others but his goal contribution tally was outstanding.

Unfortunately goal assists weren't recorded for the first 8 years of his career. However if you extrapolated his average out, it would amount to 305 goal assists. He kicked 421 goals. Won a Brownlow. Averaged 18 disposals a game over 325 games. I'd love to know what his score involvement average would have been - I imagine freakish.

 

[Cyclops]

Akermanis played more midfield than some of the others but his goal contribution tally was outstanding.

Unfortunately goal assists weren't recorded for the first 8 years of his career. However if you extrapolated his average out, it would amount to 305 goal assists. He kicked 421 goals. Won a Brownlow. Averaged 18 disposals a game over 325 games. I'd love to know what his score involvement average would have been - I imagine freakish.

I think Aker's annoying personality led to his brilliance being neglected .

I rate him among the very best rovers, and deadly in attack. As a small forward he has Greene on toast.

Your username has been confused, you are a one eyed object but not a Cyclops.

Thanks! You too.

 

[HairyO]

Agree. Better than Rioli.

Breust is Mr Consistency. Rioli at his best was phenomenal.

Milne and Betts also ahead of Greene. R Gray also a great mention but he was more mid than forward compared to the above guys thus 200 goals behind.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Not top 3. Milne, Boomer Harvey, Eddie Betts all miles better.

Really Greene plays more like a medium hybrid marking/small, where Gunston, Elliot, Stevie J have him covered, he's more on par with a JDG who is brought down to Greene's level by injury.

Massively improved from being an arse with potential to being a very good player.

Not a great captain either.

Suffers from being an AFL media unit project. The flog tepeatedly kicking opponents on the face was spun as him being unpredictable. Now he cheats less it's "redemption arc" and when he doesn't lose games through brainfarts its "great captain".

Is it fair to say that late in the day he finally has a coach to unlock his potential? A lot of Giants in this boat, buckets of talent but fI r a long time let down by less developed support.

Maybe the AFL spent all the money on the media unit and Sheedy when th ey needed a football dept and good coaches.

Just to jump on the back of this, I’m not sure he has Chris Egan covered either

 

[Mr Meow]

Breust is Mr Consistency. Rioli at his best was phenomenal.

Milne and Betts also ahead of Greene. R Gray also a great mention but he was more mid than forward compared to the above guys thus 200 goals behind.

Rioli was more freakish/gifted, dynamite and high impact from game 1. Compared to some of the others, he didn't have several 2+ goal per game average seasons and of course he didn't make it to 200 games. He was a masterful creator and tackler/pressure beast as well though. I do feel his name (wrongly) gets brought up more than some others, that's all.

Milne and Betts (especially) were electric forward pockets. Betts like Rioli put it on a plate for his team mates when he wasn't shooting the lights out himself. We're starting to blur the lines though when we compare them to the genuine forward/mids like B.Johnson, Stevie J, Akermanis, Greene and Gray.

Personally I don't think you can really diminish how high impact Greene has been from the start, but he does seem to have some haters. It feels like a bit of that is to do with stuff he's done that doesn't involve winning contests and executing skills.

 

[Osho]

He's the lad-commentator's favourite, perhaps he reminds them of another era when men didn't use umbrellas, sun cream or hats. This is the source of the hagiography. He has his moments, and then other moments, and then some other moments. The moments are inconsistent, the other moments are rarely commented on, and the some other moments are put down to the unfairness of the colonial English constabulary.

 

[Cdog71]

Not sure he’s a dedicated fwd.

Small Fwds.. Elliott for a bloke who’s 5”10 he goes alright.
Debut same year but Elliot has missed about two seasons probably played sore a lot and also alotve games finding touch again after missing patches.
Don’t think Greene is clearly the best.

 

[HairyO]

Rioli was more freakish/gifted, dynamite and high impact from game 1. Compared to some of the others, he didn't have several 2+ goal per game average seasons and of course he didn't make it to 200 games. He was a masterful creator and tackler/pressure beast as well though. I do feel his name (wrongly) gets brought up more than some others, that's all.

Milne and Betts (especially) were electric forward pockets. Betts like Rioli put it on a plate for his team mates when he wasn't shooting the lights out himself. We're starting to blur the lines though when we compare them to the genuine forward/mids like B.Johnson, Stevie J, Akermanis, Greene and Gray.

Personally I don't think you can really diminish how high impact Greene has been from the start, but he does seem to have some haters. It feels like a bit of that is to do with stuff he's done that doesn't involve winning contests and executing skills.

Being 5th behind Betts Breust Milne and Rioli is no small thing.

I dare say the 5th best tall forward or midfielder would also be a massive thing.

Greene for sure gets into the HOF as likely GWS's most important player.

 

[Obeanie1]

He's not very small.
Surely he's a medium.

He is a medium forward not small.

And he isnt even close to being the best either medium or small.

A very click bait thread title.

 

[_jrtp09_]

Toby has had a stronger overall impact on his team’s success compared to Betts, particularly when considering their roles within their respective clubs, and is still adding to his legacy as a current player and captain.

 

[Gethelred]

I agree that he's on the same tier as the Johnson brothers. Betts was electric too, but his talents felt less versatile and he didn't rotate through the midfield.

The conceit of the thread is 'best small forward', not 'best forward who can pinch-hit through the midfield'. Saying Greene is a better small forward than Betts because of things he did through the middle is akin to calling Ricky Ponting a capable bowler based on all the catches he took.

I'd rate Elliott, Betts, Charlie Cameron, Breust, and Kysaiah Picket ahead of him as a pure small forward.

 

[Mr Meow]

The conceit of the thread is 'best small forward', not 'best forward who can pinch-hit through the midfield'. Saying Greene is a better small forward than Betts because of things he did through the middle is akin to calling Ricky Ponting a capable bowler based on all the catches he took.

I mentioned later that it's complicated to compare these different types of forwards. However we have done the reverse for years - comparing 100% stoppage midfielders to those like Dusty who rotated forward. Ultimately a lot of players we compare have/had slightly different roles and attributes.

I don't think players should be marked down for versatility though and dominant forward/mids are up there with the most valuable players you can have. Geelong's whole forward line was built on that for years with Johnson and Chapman - even if they were less "specialist forward pockets" than Betts or Milne.

 

[PerthBoy86]

He's not very small.
Surely he's a medium.

Hes about 180cm, average AFL player now is close to 190. Not many players are below 180 so yes, he is small.

OP mentioned Stevie J which was odd since he's of average height and could play small and tall. Very much a versatile medium.

As for the question, he's top 10, but not the best.

 

[Mr Meow]

Hes about 180cm, average AFL player now is close to 190. Not many players are below 180 so yes, he is small.

OP mentioned Stevie J which was odd since he's of average height and could play small and tall. Very much a versatile medium.

As for the question, he's top 10, but not the best.

People are confusing playing taller than his height, with actually being a medium sized player (which he really isn't....in the 80s/90s then sure).

 

[PerthBoy86]

People are confusing playing taller than his height, with actually being a medium sized player (which he really isn't....in the 80s/90s then sure).

Yeah like Elliott he is good at overhead marking.

Even if you don't know his height (he's 181cm, looked it up) you just need eyes to see he's one of the smallest blokes on the field. Strange many are saying he's medium.

Also looked up Stevie J, he's 189cm, average.

 

[PerthBoy86]

Random unrelated crazy height related footy stat: David Wirripanda was 173cm. That's 2cm taller than Nick Watson! And he played full back at times. Incredible, you wouldn't think that.

 

[Gethelred]

I mentioned later that it's complicated to compare these different types of forwards. However we have done the reverse for years - comparing 100% stoppage midfielders to those like Dusty who rotated forward. Ultimately a lot of players we compare have/had slightly different roles and attributes.

I don't think players should be marked down for versatility though and dominant forward/mids are up there with the most valuable players you can have. Geelong's whole forward line was built on that for years with Johnson and Chapman - even if they were less "specialist forward pockets" than Betts or Milne.

It's not so much that I'd mark them down as I'd like to be comparing apples with apples. Midfield versatility is all very good - and I'd struggle to find many better general forwards than Chapman, he was one of my favourites when he played - but if we're talking pure small forwards we either are talking small forwards like Betts/Milne or we're not.

And if we're not, I rate Chapman and Johnson and still Elliott ahead of Greene any day, anyway.

 

[Cyclops]

I forgot about Chapman, how silly.

Yes the definitions matter. Small forward is a role, medium fwd too, kpf, we used to say FF chf flankers pockets etc.

Greene not best of any of those. Good utility,and doing a lot of heavy lifting as "GWS best player that didn't walk".

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Luke Breust and Eddie Betts have very comparable stats.

Luke Breust
Games - 305
Touches - 13.34
Marks - 3.13
Tackles - 3.47
* Tackles inside F50 - 1.21

Goals - 1.81
Behinds - 0.83

Goals Assists - 0.79
* Score Involvements - 5.86
** Inside 50's - 2.58

Eddie Betts
Games - 350
Touches - 12.01
Marks - 2.83
Tackles - 3.00
* Tackles inside F50 - 1.50

Goals - 1.83
Behinds - 0.98

Goals Assists - 0.74
* Score Involvements - 6.24
** Inside 50's - 1.52

* stat only logged from 2015 onwards. Average calculated over the relevant period.

** from 2007 onwards.

The other thing to consider when looking at Breust's averages is that he was a bit 'unlucky' that the beginning and end of his career has timed itself exactly with the two implementations of the sub rule. As such, he has been sub 25 times! (I assume the most of any player ever). That comprises over 8% of his 300+ game career. His averages prior to the reintroduction of the rule easily surpassed that of Betts (noting still ahead in most categories, but not all).

 

[Andyy]

Milne, Breust, Betts.

I mean Greene is probably in the top 10 of the last 25 years, but likely not the top 3-5.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

C Rioli is on his own as the best small forward of the AFL era. Incredible footballer.

T. Greene, E Betts are the only other two in the conversation, both brilliant players.