Is West the problem?

[CatTricks]

Re: West = The Problem

Welcome to the bandwagon ive been on for weeks. Dawson might be a 2 game player, but he has done a 5 year apprenticeship, is 206 cm, 110kgs and agile with great aggression and great skills. Cant wait for him to get back.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[Poetic Justice]

Re: West = The Problem

There's so many things that you can pin point to being the problem, but I doubt there's a chance in improving our chances significantly by making one simple change (injecting a better ruckman etc).

HOWEVER.

I didn't watch the Adelaide game so I can't comment, but I did attend the North Melbourne game and myself and my old man couldn't believe how much we were getting smashed at the centre clearances. There has to be at least something in that.

 

[CatTricks]

Re: West = The Problem

I first thought that maybe we are foxing. Trying to win without winning clearances and stoppages in order to be cherry ripe in September but obviously that is not the case.

Have also heard that the players are being put through a heavy training load (have been for 2 weeks) to try and ramp up the fitness levels.

 

[candiehappy]

we aren't winning the contested footy. Putting that at the foot of West is way off mark. Some of the threads reacting to our poor form are off target. If we have to rebuild this year, and get game time in to the kids, and get some players like Varcoe back - so that we can go 07, 09, 11 & 13 - then so be it!!

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

I actually think West has been terrific as the sole ruck , but we are doing him a disservice in that role - he was able to push or rest forward last year and did this to good effect. This year as the solo ruck he can't push forward and must be getting totally buggered with the TOG we expect.
The midfield group is a shadow of its' former self at the moment and this is why we are losing the clearances and can't cover the opposition on the spread - we can't seem to win the ball back once the opposition has it in their hands.

As to Vardy and Simpson being the panacea ?? One knee in the hip and Vardy could be finished so I wouldn't be putting him in the Ruck any time soon - is more of a forward so let's not fall for that one.
Dawson ? Huge potential but he has just had a disc removed FFS so getting back to AFL standard will be major , let alone being the second coming of Ottens
We must see what Orren can offer very quickly else it could very well be back to the drawing board.

 

[Leeds17]

Re: West = The Problem

How as Bathie gone in the ruck in the 2's? maybe he's an option to give west a rest and can also fill holes forward or back

 

[you pick one]

I actually think West has been terrific as the sole ruck , but we are doing him a disservice in that role - he was able to push or rest forward last year and did this to good effect. This year as the solo ruck he can't push forward and must be getting totally buggered with the TOG we expect.
The midfield group is a shadow of its' former self at the moment and this is why we are losing the clearances and can't cover the opposition on the spread - we can't seem to win the ball back once the opposition has it in their hands.

As to Vardy and Simpson being the panacea ?? One knee in the hip and Vardy could be finished so I wouldn't be putting him in the Ruck any time soon - is more of a forward so let's not fall for that one.
Dawson ? Huge potential but he has just had a disc removed FFS so getting back to AFL standard will be major , let alone being the second coming of Ottens
We must see what Orren can offer very quickly else it could very well be back to the drawing board.

Agree with Vardy and Simpson,we shouldn't be depending on them, be lucky to be available for a senior game between them this year.

That as you say leaves Orren,or perhaps we use some one like Walker to partner West,but at some stage you would think Orren will be needed either through injury or fatigue to West.Anything but Hawkins I suppose I'm saying.

 

[CatsBack2Back]

West is doing well considering his experience and talent at this stage of his career. I agree that it's more to do with the mids actually getting the ball out I think it would help to identify Selwood and Bartel as the key mids.
In 2007 there was clearly a directive to get the ball out to Ablett I don't see why we couldn't do the same thing with Sel & Bartel.

Regardless of what Mooney says about Orren something needs to change Scott has said many times that we prefer to have to ruckman. He has to be given a go or why not try J.Walker in the role as 2nd ruck drifting forward?

There are other players in the team that are out of form or because of experience not playing well enough take one of them out and put in Orren.
I don't really see we will lose much if Byrnes/Stokes/Stringer is out and we have a 2nd ruckman.

Why recruit someone for a specific role and then not play them?

I don't think it's doomsday they will turn it round but there are a lot of young players in the team struggling to have the same impact as more experienced players in other teams.

I would like to see some more physical players getting a game who will tackle, chase and desperately want the ball. Schroder/Walker/Kersten/Hogan I think could offer something until other players get back/find form.

 

[kickazz]

I think he is doing okay, my concern is will he get burnt out? We had two ruckmen retire last year, and two with major injuries. He has not enough support at the moment.

 

[Scottland2007]

I think West did really well against the pies on the weekend. Some of his tap work to Selwood was first class, especially against Jolly, who is an A grader ruckman. West has 26 hit outs and Jolly had 29. Well done Westy,

 

[Topper]

West isn't THE problem, he's a problem, and that's simply he's not a no.1 ruckman, he's a number 2 being forced to play as no.1

But being forced to play as the no.1 is only going to improve him, just needs time

 

[Cats Eye]

I think a better ruckman would be handy, but at the same time I dont think the whole blame can be put on West, or our ruck department for that matter.

 

[candiehappy]

I think a better ruckman would be handy, but at the same time I dont think the whole blame can be put on West, or our ruck department for that matter.

totally agree. IMO the real problem is a lack of players in that 50 - 100 game bracket. Ig rebuilding those stocks is the price weay for the past 5 years, so be it.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

None of our ruckmen are the problem.

The problem lies in the gameplan. Handballing backwards to players standing still, chipping sideways and backwards and just simply bombing the ball long is the problem. The plan has no structure and all 22 players simply aren't switched on in helping each other out for the entire game. When you've played so many new players it takes a while for the synergy to build.

The players simply don't have the same confidence in each other as seasons past.

 

[Partridge]

I think West did really well against the pies on the weekend. Some of his tap work to Selwood was first class, especially against Jolly, who is an A grader ruckman. West has 26 hit outs and Jolly had 29. Well done Westy,

Kicked 2 goals too. Tried hard all night (as usual).

But he's no Vardy remember that.

 

[Partridge]

West isn't THE problem, he's a problem, and that's simply he's not a no.1 ruckman, he's a number 2 being forced to play as no.1

But being forced to play as the no.1 is only going to improve him, just needs time

That can't even be claimed as an excuse now. Simpson is fit and is playing well in the reserves. It might hurt us with a little bit of overall speed (not that it matters), but to me they've got to play both ruckmen. For one thing they'll be better for the experience and you can still rest West up forward.

 

[cynical]

We should not have gone with 1 ruck, our midfield isn't strong enough to be able to shark enough hit outs from the opposition.

Simpson should be no1 ruck for the rest of the year with West being no2. Orren is just insurance.

The problem is an aging team all over the ground not just that we have a no2 ruck playing as if he is no1 ruck

 

[Senatorguesty]

I've actually hear of a rumour that the Cats might be looking at McIntosh from the Roos. Dunno where the rumour started or even if Big H is contracted or not but lets say we DO go after him, that would alleviate those ruck problems for the short to medium term....
I do think the Cats will chase a senior proven ruckman in the trade period tho regardless of the accuracy of the above.

 

[Partridge]

I've actually hear of a rumour that the Cats might be looking at McIntosh from the Roos. Dunno where the rumour started or even if Big H is contracted or not but lets say we DO go after him, that would alleviate those ruck problems for the short to medium term....
I do think the Cats will chase a senior proven ruckman in the trade period tho regardless of the accuracy of the above.

Puts a band aid on a flesh wound in my opinion. As others have said, I still don't think the ruck is anywhere near our biggest issue. I am still confident that a combination of West, Simpson and Vardy will be a very good ruck setup in the coming years. There isn't another side in the competition that is asking someone who's only played 35 games to be first ruck.

I don't think they should go after someone else, they should persist with those three. For this year West and Simpson, and add Vardy next year.

 

[Topper]

Once Pods is gone I think Vardy should have his forward spot, so i don't think Vardy is going to solve many ruck problems.

He's long been compared to N Reiwoldt, including by Mooney on SEN not too long ago

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Once Pods is gone I think Vardy should have his forward spot, so i don't think Vardy is going to solve many ruck problems.

He's long been compared to N Reiwoldt, including by Mooney on SEN not too long ago

They definitely need an A grade ruckman, but that hasn't been the issue this year.

 

[DanA]

Puts a band aid on a flesh wound in my opinion. As others have said, I still don't think the ruck is anywhere near our biggest issue. I am still confident that a combination of West, Simpson and Vardy will be a very good ruck setup in the coming years. There isn't another side in the competition that is asking someone who's only played 35 games to be first ruck.

I don't think they should go after someone else, they should persist with those three. For this year West and Simpson, and add Vardy next year.

For me ruck is by far our biggest problem and West isn't the answer.He might only have played 35 games but he turns 25 this year. Simpson himself is 23, these guys if they were quality prospects should be making an impact by now.

I think if we replaced Corey with Boak and brought in McIntosh this summer we'd be a hell of a lot stronger and a real chance at the 2013 premiership. Vardy, Varcoe, Menzel, Boak and McIntosh would I think add significant improvement even with the retirement of Corey & Wojak.

 

[Partridge]

For me ruck is by far our biggest problem and West isn't the answer. He might only have played 35 games but he turns 25 this year. Simpson himself is 23, these guys if they were quality prospects should be making an impact by now.

I think if we replaced Corey with Boak and brought in McIntosh this summer we'd be a hell of a lot stronger and a real chance at the 2013 premiership. Vardy, Varcoe, Menzel, Boak and McIntosh would I think add significant improvement even with the retirement of Corey & Wojak.

You think it mightn't be due to lack of opportunity perhaps? In West's case is could have had something to do with Ottens, Blake and Mumford all being ahead of him.

So what you're saying is, if you're not a star by age 23 then there's no hope right? In that case delist them both, go out and buy a ruckman or two and see how well it works.

Once again the golden boy Vardy gets mentioned. What has he done - so far - that makes people think he's going to be instantly so much better? He's going to take time just as West has (and is) and Simpson will. Cannot wait to see how patient people will be with him.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

We should not have gone with 1 ruck, our midfield isn't strong enough to be able to shark enough hit outs from the opposition.

Simpson should be no1 ruck for the rest of the year with West being no2. Orren is just insurance.

The problem is an aging team all over the ground not just that we have a no2 ruck playing as if he is no1 ruck

I would like to see it but it would make us too top heavy, until Simpson is fitter we can't play both regularly. Simpson also doesn't have the ability to make an impact when forward that West does. West has ben doing a great job, battling one out most weeks and still breaking even with the opposition ruckmen, and rucking 90 % or more by himself. And still taking marks and kicking goals when forward.

Sure, he could be much better if he was able to spend more time up forward if we had another good ruckman to take some ruck load, but we don't, not right now anyway. At the moment he is the best ruckman we have by far and he is doing a very good job.

 

[Partridge]

Once Pods is gone I think Vardy should have his forward spot, so i don't think Vardy is going to solve many ruck problems.

He's long been compared to N Reiwoldt, including by Mooney on SEN not too long ago

Among the many stupid things that happen in football now, one of the dumbest is comparing new players to established ones and thinking they have to emulate them. To me Vardy looks a far more natural ruckman than a forward. But, he will take time. He's not going to be the best ruckman in the competition next year and he won't be kicking 50 goals either.

Just because Mooney says something doesn't mean it's gospel either.