Israel Declares War

[Bloodstained Angel]

That what I mean when I say Bush has become imprisoned within his own rhetoric.

Bush's rhetoric ("You are for us or against us" "war on terror" "those that support terrorism are themselves terrorists" etc etc) has been used as an instrument of blackmail by cunning and totally unscrupulous Israelis like Sharon.

Bushs' ill-judged and badly thought-through comments post Sep11 have come back to haunt him big time.

He is now in a postion where he (and the US State Dept) is now a virtula captive of Sharons hardline position.

with friends like Sharon - who needs enemies ?

cheers

 

[Sydneyfan]

There's no doubt that Sharon has been an agitator as soon as he got into power and his provocative actions have helped reverse the hard work of both sides beforehand in attempting to bring about peace.

I was just thinking whether it's possible that Sharon and/or Arafat could be rubbed out in a covert operation by outside powers (ie. the CIA), if the present situation continues and that peace in the region proves to be impossible if either men are in power. In the unlikely event of this occuring, the USA wouldn't want to be found out as the nation responsible however, it's highly likely that the US will never arrest either men as war criminals. It's probably a bit far-fetched and extreme but it seems like peace is impossible with either men in power.

 

[wagstaff]

Originally posted by Pessimistic
Doesn't the 'War on terrorism' mean something different each month ?

"War on Terrorism" is an Orwellian term that is being used by countries like America and Israel because it comes across as much more noble then "War on Afghanistan" or "War on Palestine", and they see it as a viable means to manipulate the general popualtion.

After all, how can anyone be against a war on terrorism? The Americans have been successful in this aspect as the commercial media outlets accept without question that Americans are stamping out terrorism, which comes across as an aim that few would disagree with.

It only falls apart when you begin to analyse what the purposes and motives of the "war on terrorism" are really all about/

 

[Methuselah]

IMO,

The problem is intractable.

As is the case in Northern Ireland, many people on both sides are sick of all the conflict and want to live in peace with their neighbours, raising their kids and enjoying their lives - just like the rest of us.

However, the zealots on both sides are driving the agenda and always have done.

On the Israeli side, these are people that believe being anti-zionist is the same as being anti-semitic, and are engaged in a holy war. Part of their strategy is to ensure there are new Israeli settlements in all occupied lands...an expansionist policy and one that can only provoke hostility.

On the Palestinian side the zealots believe they are engaged in a holy war, and that all methods of attack are acceptable, including suicide bombing. They want the complete destruction of Israel.

On a military level....Israel has had to develop an awesome military capacity to survive this far. As an example, the population of Australia is just under 19 million and we have 71 tanks and 126 combat aircraft. Israel has just under 6 million people and has 3,800 main battle tanks and 459 combat aircraft.

Against that kind of firepower, the twin Arab powers of Eygpt and Syria have repeatedly failed. So Palestinian zealots, while passionate, are not crazy, and so are engaged in acts of terrorism to press their cause. Any other approach to combat with the Israeli state would fail. Also remember, they have a perfect example of how terrorism against a much stronger opponent can be effective - the israelis themselves used terrorism against british troops with great effect in the conflict that led to the formation of their nation.

On a political level, the main barriers to peace are the fact that coalition govts continue to dominate in Israel and extremist parties can demand hard-line policies.

On the Palestinian side, the reality is that Arafat is indeed a moderate, and does not have the support of many hard-liners and there is no shortage of angry young men and women to martyr themselves for a cause.

On an economic level, the landscape is dominated by Israel, and most palestinians with jobs have to work in Israel - the continuing conflict is unlikely to give any economic hope to the palestinians any time soon.

The outlook - more of the same, with brief perids of peace will each side re-arms.

 

[Portia]

So Sherman, how do you respond to the latest attack wherein 70 Palestinians (officially. Unofficially, 400 is the number I heard) were killed by an Israeli assault?

Not ethnic cleansing my arse.

 

[skilts]

What is needed in these troubled times is a bit of off-the-wall thinking. My proposal is that we build a very high razor wire fence around Jerusalem. Then we fly in all the ****ers from around the world who want to kill people for religious or ethnic reasons. Give each of them an AK47, and say, go at it boys.
We could have teams representing various interest groups from Indonesia, the Middle East, Rwanda, all parts of Yugoslavia, skinheads from Germany and a special place for the Irish. Rupert would buy the worldwide rights for Sky TV and we could see it in our lounge rooms every night, with dinner. Now, that's what I call reality TV.
Do I detect a hint of dissent to the effect that this proposal would result in the death of guilty people? Probably right, not as much fun if no innocents are killed. Collateral damage may be a side benefit though. Think of how many mosques and churches would be destroyed.
The major bonus of my proposal is that no harm can possibly come to Jerusalem, the city. What's going to happen? Would we degrade it into finer dust?

 

[Dippers Donuts]

How ironic that the yanks are promising aid to the Palestinian towns reduced to rubble by the US supplied/armed Israeli army.

Bush is simply a gutless wonder, if he had any ticker he would have said to Sharon days ago, "unless you remove your forces within 3 days we will cancel all aid to Israel immediately".

Imagine how fast the Israelis would have withdrawn then...

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

I think the Us Administration would love to serve an ultimatum like that on the Isrealis DD.

However, the powerful "Jewish lobby' inside the Us itself would never let it happen.

Don't forget, American Jewry is the most numerous, richest and most politically powerful population of Jews anywhere in the world. With their money and political influenece they can, quite literally, make or break any US President.

Thats why littel old Isreal is by far the biggest receiever of American Aid monies - this small and prosperous country with an educated poplulation and a mature democratic government recieves a truly staggering 4 billion $US in aid every year.

More than any other country, by far - and its arguable they don't need a cent of it.

Thats why I believe the United States has no place in trying to settle the Middle East problem. As perennial backers and sponsors of Isreal they just aren't impartial or balanced enough to be able to forge a just and equitable settlement - for all stake holders.

They will take the side of Isreal in this every single time - without exception.

cheers

 

[Dippers Donuts]

They are powerful that is true enough BSA.

Thing is though, don't they all vote for the Democrats (the American Jewish population that is). Shouldn't worry Georgey boy too much should it, not like he would lose too many votes.

**** the Israelis I say, I am getting heartily pissed off with their intransigence and belligerence. "Oh but we are rooting out terrorism" they cry. Cobblers, all they have done is stiffened the resolve of another generation of suicide bombers.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

yes, absolutely correct DD

90 cents out of every Jewish dollar given to Election campaigns goes to the Democrats.

and also - the Bush Administration recieved no support from the Jewish lobby at all.

So, you could say that Bush has a a 'clear run' on these issues. He didn't need Jewish money to get elected, he didn't get very many Jewish votes, there are no Jews in his Cabinet.

Which is why the Bush crew had a plan for Middle East peace in preparation last year.

The plan involved recognition of a Palestinian State - a major breakthrough by the White House.

Everything was ready to go - Powell had Arafat and Barak on side and a clear mandate from the Republicans back home to go hard for a comprehensive settlement.

Then along came Sept11 - and in a supreme irony, terrorists with strongly pro-Palestinian sympathies have now ended all proispect of a comprehensive peace settlememt in the Middle East.

A settlement that probably wouyld have given the Palestinains just about everything they have asked for.

The post Sept11 landscape has now changed and it finds the Bush Administration really scrambling to adjust to the new realities.

However, whilst a government that does not depend on Jewish money remains in the White House, I remain optimistic that a just and equitable settlement can be achieved.

The USA should use the 'carrot and stick' approach with Isreal (withold aid if they don't do as they are told) but, once again, the all-powerful Jewish lobby inside the USA will dom its darbndest to ensure that this never happens

cheers

 

[wagstaff]

The after-effects of the carnage in the Middle East are already occurring. Reports from France suggest that Anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim attacks are on the increase. Usually a society in turmoil like France is at the moment requires just one ethnic group to use as a scapegoat, so this is a rarity.

Another giant leap for mankind.