Israel, Palestine, and everything related

[Number37]

Join the International Criminal Court, Israel takes Palestinian money.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-withholds-palestinian-tax-revenues-1420312156

UN votes to recognise Palestine, Israel takes Palestinian money.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-israel-funds-idUSBRE8B108Z20121202

 

[Lemma]

One of the major contributing factors to corruption in Palestine is the fact that Israel continues to withhold tax receipts, medical aid and almost every other form of aid simply for the reason to punish everyday Palestinians. The corruption in Palestine is a situation brought about by the actions of the Israeli govt. Israeli politics and politicians are as corrupt as they come.

First of all, want to condemn the comment telling you to 'sit on a knife' etc. Not OK.

Israel suspend aid because it never actually goes to help people. It funds terrorism.

As for everyday Palestinians, they are routinely treated in Israeli hospitals and by Israeli health organizations such as Magen David Adom (The Israeli equivalent to the Red Cross). The Red Crescent (the Arab version of the Red Cross) not only actively campaigned for MDA to not be admitted to the international red Cross, but routinely ignore Jewish victims when they are in distress.

As for corruption, there is corruption in the Israeli govt as there is in many democracies with regards to business interests, awarding of corporate contracts etc, and there is Palestinian corruption- which consists of taking money meant for Palestinians suffering in Gaza to fund builidng concrete tunnels into Israel to commit terrorist acts. To compare the two is, at best, inconsistent.

Also, Olmert (for example) got punished (imprisoned) for corruption. Do you see that happening to the Palestinian leaders?

 

[Number37]

First of all, want to condemn the comment telling you to 'sit on a knife' etc. Not OK.

Israel suspend aid because it never actually goes to help people. It funds terrorism.

As for everyday Palestinians, they are routinely treated in Israeli hospitals and by Israeli health organizations such as Magen David Adom (The Israeli equivalent to the Red Cross). The Red Crescent (the Arab version of the Red Cross) not only actively campaigned for MDA to not be admitted to the international red Cross, but routinely ignore Jewish victims when they are in distress.

As for corruption, there is corruption in the Israeli govt as there is in many democracies with regards to business interests, awarding of corporate contracts etc, and there is Palestinian corruption- which consists of taking money meant for Palestinians suffering in Gaza to fund builidng concrete tunnels into Israel to commit terrorist acts. To compare the two is, at best, inconsistent.

Also, Olmert (for example) got punished (imprisoned) for corruption. Do you see that happening to the Palestinian leaders?

What about turning off the power?
Does electricity fund terrorism?
What about water?
Does it fund terrorism too?

How you can justify Palestinians getting starved, deprived of basic essentials and basically given no hope with oh but Israel treats some of them in Israeli hospitals is quite sad.

Israel is as corrupt as they come. That's what happens when small parties have to make deals to form govt. On top of the corrupt business practices in Israel it is a bit rich for Israel to be telling anyone else they are corrupt.
As for Palestinian money, no reason whatsoever for Israel to withhold any of it. NONE.
Palestinians build tunnels and throw rocks and vote for Hamas because they have no other choice.
Who are they going to vote for to stand up for them for the brutalisation by Israel?

 

[Lemma]

Israel turns off electricity and water because the PA don't pay bills. The same thing happens in the rest of Israel if you don't pay your bill. Should they just continue to provide a service at no cost? The other reason water has been cut off or decreased supply is that the PA aren't upkeeping the pipes and they are in disrepair. Is this Israel's fault too? By the way, I don't completely agree with them cutting it off.

It is unfortunate that innocent people suffer at the hands of the ruling party but you are only presenting one side of the story.
And to trivialise Palestinians getting treated in Israeli hospitals? Do you think Israelis would get treated in hospitals in Gaza? Not a chance.

As I said before, there are different levels of corruption- so no, Israel is not as corrupt as they come- and they also punish corruption when Hamas do not. They don't have a choice in ruling party because they don't hold elections. And when they did have an election (2006), the people voted in a party (Hamas) that actively campaign for terrorism and the obliteration of Israel. So forgive me for not having huge buckets of sympathy for them.

Finally this 'they have no other choice' is such a fallacy. The choice they (both the people and their government) have is to put down their guns and suicide vests and rock-slingshots and actually negotiate. Israel has offered several times to have land swaps in exchange for peace. But do they take it? No. Because peace is not what they want.

 

[Number37]

Finally this 'they have no other choice' is such a fallacy. The choice they (both the people and their government) have is to put down their guns and suicide vests and rock-slingshots and actually negotiate. Israel has offered several times to have land swaps in exchange for peace. But do they take it? No. Because peace is not what they want.

As an ordinary Australian citizen, could you put down your guns?
By guns I mean the guns of that Australia uses in your name.
Even if you are vehemently opposed to war and the use of force, as an Australian citizen you have absolutely zero power to 'put down your guns'.
To suggest that the solution is Palestinians putting down their guns is as one-sided as it gets.
Israel doesn't want peace. Israel holds all the power and chooses not to take the peace option. Any fool can see that. Israel has been bluffing the world for 40 years into believing its all the fault of the Palestinians.

As for the rest of your claims. Just more of the same Israeli propaganda about how Israel does the Palestinians a favour.
Shooting at ambulances is Israeli's MO and says all anyone needs to know.

 

[strauchnyy]

Israel turns off electricity and water because the PA don't pay bills. The same thing happens in the rest of Israel if you don't pay your bill. Should they just continue to provide a service at no cost? The other reason water has been cut off or decreased supply is that the PA aren't upkeeping the pipes and they are in disrepair. Is this Israel's fault too? By the way, I don't completely agree with them cutting it off.

It is unfortunate that innocent people suffer at the hands of the ruling party but you are only presenting one side of the story.
And to trivialise Palestinians getting treated in Israeli hospitals? Do you think Israelis would get treated in hospitals in Gaza? Not a chance.

As I said before, there are different levels of corruption- so no, Israel is not as corrupt as they come- and they also punish corruption when Hamas do not. They don't have a choice in ruling party because they don't hold elections. And when they did have an election (2006), the people voted in a party (Hamas) that actively campaign for terrorism and the obliteration of Israel. So forgive me for not having huge buckets of sympathy for them.

Finally this 'they have no other choice' is such a fallacy. The choice they (both the people and their government) have is to put down their guns and suicide vests and rock-slingshots and actually negotiate. Israel has offered several times to have land swaps in exchange for peace. But do they take it? No. Because peace is not what they want.

Terrific post.

Really puts it in perspective.

Israel treats Palestinians for free... Palestinians do not treat Israelis/Jews

Israel has democratic elections... Palestinians do not

Israel provides aid to Palestinians... Palestinian leaders steal aid from civilians.

Israel offers land for peace... Palestinians prefer obliteration of Israel than peace.

Number37 needs to askim himself: when Israel provides aid to Gaza, with Hamas stealing the aid to directly use in terrorist acts against Israel... what is Israel to do? Should Israel continue to give resources to a terrorist organisation that leads to Israeli deaths? or.. is it actually the Palestinian leaders' who are to blame for aid to be stopped? the answer is quite obvious to anyone with an IQ above 11.

 

[Number37]

2015 aid flotilla, Israel military kills activists with most having MULTIPLE gunshot wounds, some with gunshot wounds in the back.
Peace, my arse.
It is all about control. Without control Israel can't pretend to be under attack.
Anyone that respects human life and wants peace would never condone, let alone carry out, such brutality.

 

[The Edukator]

2015 aid flotilla, Israel military kills activists with most having MULTIPLE gunshot wounds, some with gunshot wounds in the back.
Peace, my arse.
It is all about control. Without control Israel can't pretend to be under attack.
Anyone that respects human life and wants peace would never condone, let alone carry out, such brutality.

you're so dumb i've got to wonder if you headbutted a knife already. have you had a lobotomy?

 

[Lemma]

, could you put down your guns?
By guns I mean the guns of that Australia uses in your name.
Even if you are vehemently opposed to war and the use of force, as an Australian citizen you have absolutely zero power to 'put down your guns'.
To suggest that the solution is Palestinians putting down their guns is as one-sided as it gets.

To an extent you are right. One person is essentially powerless to stop the brutal government. But blaming Israel for that is a fallacy.
It is important to remember that the Gazan people (not all of them-lots are innocent) are the ones promoting the ideologies that Hamas espouses ("death to Israel and the Jews" etc). They pass it on to their kids, their grandkids. Have you ever seen Gazan TV shows for children? They promote terrorism- which is nuts even if it was directed at adults, let alone talking to impressionable children. They don't stand a chance.

So when I say 'put down your guns' I don't just mean in the literal sense. I mean stop promoting terrorism, stop naming streets after martyrs, stop funding the life insurance of suicide bombers, and FFS stop bringing up children thinking that the hate of Israel and the Jews is the way of life.

Israel doesn't want peace. Israel holds all the power and chooses not to take the peace option. Any fool can see that. Israel has been bluffing the world for 40 years into believing its all the fault of the Palestinians.

If Israel didn't want peace, why would they keep offering areas of land for peace? What would be the gain for them?

As for the rest of your claims. Just more of the same Israeli propaganda about how Israel does the Palestinians a favour.

So from what I've gathered "propaganda" = facts you disagree with but can't refute? OK cool.

 

[CM86]

**** off

you are scum and would see any non believer around you murdered. go sit on a knife

good luck getting that terrorist sympathiser to believe you

you're so dumb i've got to wonder if you headbutted a knife already. have you had a lobotomy?

Can you cut this out?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Yeah. The Edukator, that's a bit harsh. I don't agree with your point of view on this at all, but I'd never tell you to go sit on a knife. Argue the points alone, as playing the man in an argument achieves four fifths of f*ck-all.

And that's at best.

 

[Number37]

To an extent you are right. One person is essentially powerless to stop the brutal government. But blaming Israel for that is a fallacy.
It is important to remember that the Gazan people (not all of them-lots are innocent) are the ones promoting the ideologies that Hamas espouses ("death to Israel and the Jews" etc). They pass it on to their kids, their grandkids. Have you ever seen Gazan TV shows for children? They promote terrorism- which is nuts even if it was directed at adults, let alone talking to impressionable children. They don't stand a chance.

So when I say 'put down your guns' I don't just mean in the literal sense. I mean stop promoting terrorism, stop naming streets after martyrs, stop funding the life insurance of suicide bombers, and FFS stop bringing up children thinking that the hate of Israel and the Jews is the way of life.



If Israel didn't want peace, why would they keep offering areas of land for peace? What would be the gain for them?


So from what I've gathered "propaganda" = facts you disagree with but can't refute? OK cool.

You cannot be serious.
Blame Palestinians for not putting the down the guns = ok. BUT blaming Israel is a fallacy?

Gazan TV shows promote terrorism. Israel bombs the s**t out of Palestine every other day.
What's worse for Palestinian children, watching some fiction on TV or seeing with your own eyes EVERY DAY the brutality of Israel?

I would imagine that it would be pretty easy to convince a child to be a terrorist when they look outside their window and see what is happening, everyday.
I would also imagine that it would be pretty easy to pass on to grand children and great grand children a burning hatred of a country that has brutalised you, your father and your grand father.
Israel reminds everyone at every opportunity of the holocaust, you think Palestinians should just forget all the brutality that Israel has dished out to them?

As for the land for peace thing that you keep mentioning. Yeah right. It is just another of Israel's bullshit attempts at making it look like they want a deal.
The one and only time Israel ever came close to finalising a deal the Israeli PM who negotiated the deal was assassinated. Conveniently.
Ever since then Israel has used any bullshit excuse to start wars to supposedly stop the rockets.

 

[The Edukator]

Yeah. The Edukator, that's a bit harsh. I don't agree with your point of view on this at all, but I'd never tell you to go sit on a knife. Argue the points alone, as playing the man in an argument achieves four fifths of f*ck-all.

And that's at best.

this guy is a terrorist extremeist sympathiser. I cant believe any of you have time for him.

 

[Maggie5]

this guy is a terrorist extremeist sympathiser. I cant believe any of you have time for him.

Funny, that is what I thought you were given the comments in your posts.

 

[strauchnyy]

So basically... Lemma posts facts, measured articulate responses on what is actually happening whereas Number37 posts propaganda, generalisations (eg "Israel bombs gaza everyday") and basically just fiction he believes to be true. Talk about a one sided thrashing.

Number37 - just because you post rubbish, doesn't make it actually true. Although.. I'm sure you believe yourself

Everything comes back to the ideological barbarian systematic hate that the Palestinians promote amongst themselves. Ask yourself, why do Israel bomb gaza (note not everyday), answer: to stop rockets/terrorist acts aimed at targeting Israeli civilians. Ok, so why do the Palestinians commit terror against Israel? answer: they hate Israel and strive to obliterate it.

Hamas's covenant on obliterating Israel: 'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'

https://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

Palestinian leaders are scum of the earth.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I think the time has come for a truly international peacekeeping force to help both Jews and Palestinians discover that they are each humans and deserving of living in the area as neighbours. Jewish belief that God gave them the land should not be negatively affected by the fact they have to share in that land, and the same goes to the Palestinians.

Ideally they should be able to work this out themselves, but religious zealotry on both sides seems like it will always intercede. This zealotry must be removed, and removed forever, from the politics of both sides. Yes, administering all the holy sites (religion will always be important to the people involved, but the extent of it should go no further than the communal level) in an equal manner will be tough (joint custody of the Temple Mount/Al Aqsa Mosque for instance) but this needs to be addressed.

A Palestinian life is worth no more and no less than a Jewish one. A Jewish life is worth no more or no less than a Palestinian one. This is the one truth that both sides must start from, and ultimately be made to accept if they cannot do it themselves.

This attitude of secular acceptance must spread throughout the surrounding nations as well.

 

[Sainteric]

You cannot be serious.
Blame Palestinians for not putting the down the guns = ok. BUT blaming Israel is a fallacy?

Gazan TV shows promote terrorism. Israel bombs the s**t out of Palestine every other day.
What's worse for Palestinian children, watching some fiction on TV or seeing with your own eyes EVERY DAY the brutality of Israel?

I would imagine that it would be pretty easy to convince a child to be a terrorist when they look outside their window and see what is happening, everyday.
I would also imagine that it would be pretty easy to pass on to grand children and great grand children a burning hatred of a country that has brutalised you, your father and your grand father.
Israel reminds everyone at every opportunity of the holocaust, you think Palestinians should just forget all the brutality that Israel has dished out to them?

As for the land for peace thing that you keep mentioning. Yeah right. It is just another of Israel's bullshit attempts at making it look like they want a deal.
The one and only time Israel ever came close to finalising a deal the Israeli PM who negotiated the deal was assassinated. Conveniently.
Ever since then Israel has used any bullshit excuse to start wars to supposedly stop the rockets.

This is delusional, firstly as most of the left would have it the palestinian terrorities are not in a constant seige of stalingrad, generally there is measured respones to palestinans actions. Ocasionally excesses happen and not all of those are dealt with by the israeli army. But compared to celebrating murder and murders of children they arent in the same league to the PA.

Nearly all israelis do want peace but do not want to give the right of return. You could argue lately east j is off the table but they certainly will give land and other enticements, the only other stipulation would be the level of arms the new state has.

The palestines mostly want peace but the political class has verged from as a minimum a un proposed deal from 60 years ago to push Israel back into the sea. The best deal palestine were ever going to get was the one arafat rejected. The israelis will negotiate the palestinians genuinely will not.

 

[Number37]

This is delusional, firstly as most of the left would have it the palestinian terrorities are not in a constant seige of stalingrad, generally there is measured respones to palestinans actions. Ocasionally excesses happen and not all of those are dealt with by the israeli army. But compared to celebrating murder and murders of children they arent in the same league to the PA.

Nearly all israelis do want peace but do not want to give the right of return. You could argue lately east j is off the table but they certainly will give land and other enticements, the only other stipulation would be the level of arms the new state has.

The palestines mostly want peace but the political class has verged from as a minimum a un proposed deal from 60 years ago to push Israel back into the sea. The best deal palestine were ever going to get was the one arafat rejected. The israelis will negotiate the palestinians genuinely will not.

You think Palestinian children are completely oblivious to what is happening to them?
You think it is just a once in a while kinda thing?
Don't be ridiculous.
Hamas does something and Israel punishes all Palestinians, innocent or not and have done so for at least the last 20 years.
Israel doesn't have the balls to take on Hamas without punishing every Palestinian.

 

[strauchnyy]

Israel doesn't have the balls to take on Hamas without punishing every Palestinian.

You really are delusional...

Fact is hamas don't have the balls to fight without their human sheilds.

Hamas are the most cowardly pathetic bunch of deranged islamic radical scum on earth.. on par with isis.

 

[Sainteric]

Ha

You think Palestinian children are completely oblivious to what is happening to them?
You think it is just a once in a while kinda thing?
Don't be ridiculous.
Hamas does something and Israel punishes all Palestinians, innocent or not and have done so for at least the last 20 years.
Israel doesn't have the balls to take on Hamas without punishing every Palestinian.

Hamas leaders and those other brave islamic warriors bunker beneath hospitals so they wont get fired at. They want as many innocents to die as shields as they put rocket launchers in packed civillian areas.

 

[Number37]

Ha

Hamas leaders and those other brave islamic warriors bunker beneath hospitals so they wont get fired at. They want as many innocents to die as shields as they put rocket launchers in packed civillian areas.

Exactly.
Doesn't stop Israel from bombing the s**t out of innocent people. Even though it has proven to be a failure.

 

[Lemma]

The funny thing is there are arguments that you could make against Israel that I would have trouble refuting and you have made pretty much none of them. Low hanging fruit so far! Punch a bit higher, 37!

 

[Number37]

The funny thing is there are arguments that you could make against Israel that I would have trouble refuting and you have made pretty much none of them. Low hanging fruit so far! Punch a bit higher, 37!

You haven't refuted anything that I have written.
You have attempted to twist the whole discussion into a discussion about how it's all Hamas' fault.

Palestinians want to wipe Israel from the map coupled with Israel is a peace loving nation that only wants peace is often the starting point for people that seek to justify Israels brutality.
Israel has done EVERYTHING that it can to stop Palestine being recognised as a state. EVERYTHING.
Why is that?
International Law is very clear on what is required to be recognised as a state and one of the most important precedents (Western Sahara case) is that everyone has a right to self determination.
So why doesn't Israel want Palestine to be a state?

 

[Lemma]

What haven't I refuted? "Israel bomb Palestinians every day" is that even worth refuting? We both know that's not true

I've never actually justified Israel's brutality, but the 'brutality' you have mentioned so far has mostly been made-up. I'll never justify all of Israel's brutality, sometimes what they do is heavy-handed- but it needs to be seen in perspective- which you fail to do.

EVERYTHING! Really? Besides pulling out of Gaza and the West Bank (you could argue not fully, but mostly), besides offering land in exchange for peace and besides treating their people much better than the PA or Hamas treat Israelis? All this while they threaten to wipe Israel off the map!

It's not true that Israel doesn't want Palestine to be a state. Israel doesn't want Palestine to be a state in its current form, with two dysfunctional governments- neither of which are happy to live side by side with Israel, and both of which believe shooting rockets across the border is justified. A sustainable 2-state solution can only come through direct negotiation, which to this point has not been forthcoming from the Palestinian side.

 

[Lemma]

There are three things that Israel demand from Palestine if they were to recognize statehood (and tell me which of these you think is unreasonable):
1. Genuine mutual recognition of statehood- that they acknowledge Israel's right to exist
2. Security guarantees- that the West Bank/Gaza would not be firing rockets at Israel
3. Commitment that this would be the final end of conflict