Israel, Palestine, and everything related

[Number37]

You've completely destroyed the pro-Israel rhetoric in this thread Pugsville , they're busy scurrying for strawmen and it won't be long before the ad hominems.
There is no 2-state solution because that is NOT what Israel wants. Simple.

 

[Procrastinator35]

You've completely destroyed the pro-Israel rhetoric in this thread Pugsville , they're busy scurrying for strawmen and it won't be long before the ad hominems.
There is no 2-state solution because that is NOT what Israel wants. Simple.

What Israel wants, also includes Damascus & half of Iraq.....And once the Shia & Sunni have finished exterminating each other, that will be made so much easier....Always the plan, sadly.

 

[Sainteric]

You've completely destroyed the pro-Israel rhetoric in this thread Pugsville , they're busy scurrying for strawmen and it won't be long before the ad hominems.
There is no 2-state solution because that is NOT what Israel wants. Simple.

Yes by the reliance on the vibe and lefty propganda . simples

 

[Sainteric]

What Israel wants, also includes Damascus & half of Iraq.....And once the Shia & Sunni have finished exterminating each other, that will be made so much easier....Always the plan, sadly.

Of course they do but then again delusion runs rampant through the anti jewish/israel argument.

 

[Sainteric]

Do you think he didn't want all of mandatory Palestine for the state of Israel? In 1956 he asked Britain and France in Israel could annex the west bank, the Golan and southern Lebanon as well as the Sinai.

Again this is not based on any of the events France and later the uk were pissed that nasser had taken the suez. Israel who had been constantly at war , enemy number 1 was Nasser they just facilitated the attack. Ike stuffed it making the uk get out because it just emboldened the soviets to role the tanks into Hungary. There was never a plan to expand israel just a case of attack is the best form of defence and opportunity.

 

[WA ROO]

You've completely destroyed the pro-Israel rhetoric in this thread Pugsville , they're busy scurrying for strawmen and it won't be long before the ad hominems.
There is no 2-state solution because that is NOT what Israel wants. Simple.

Wrong thread

 

[Procrastinator35]

Of course they do but then again delusion runs rampant through the anti jewish/israel argument.

The only delusion I'm witnessing in this thread, is coming from posters continuing to deny the bleeding obvious, as highlighted in this map....Don't let the facts get in the way of Zionist/Likud party apologetics.

 

[Number37]

Yes by the reliance on the vibe and lefty propganda . simples

All your blubbering and you got nothing.

Netanyahu doesn't want, and has never has wanted, a 2-state solution.
As has been pointed out to you, his actions are pretty clear.
You don't have anything of value to say because you will continue to pretend it is not the truth.

 

[pugsville]

Again this is not based on any of the events France and later the uk were pissed that nasser had taken the suez. Israel who had been constantly at war , enemy number 1 was Nasser they just facilitated the attack. Ike stuffed it making the uk get out because it just emboldened the soviets to role the tanks into Hungary. There was never a plan to expand israel just a case of attack is the best form of defence and opportunity.

"Before All Else, naturally , the Elimination of Nasser "ben Gurion declared. But after that he wanted to partition Jordan, with the west bank going autonomous region to Israel and the east bank to Iraq, Lebanon would lose terroritory up to the Litanni River to Israel, and certain other parts would go to Syria, with the remaining territory becoming a christian state. A pro-Western leader would be installed in Damascus. Israel would take Sharm el-Sheikh at the tip of the Sinai peninsula from Egypt"
-- Warriors at theSuez page 342 Donald Neff describing ben Gurion ambit claims at the Serves Conference, where Israel, Britain and France planned a war of Aggression against Egypt.

 

[Roylion]

Did i bring up Pape?

You've parroted his argument that there was some sort of intended master plan from the beginning of Zionism to totally remove Palestinian Arabs from Israel.

The Zionist leadership greatly desired an state where the overwhelming majority of the population was Jewish.

Yes? A Jewish homeland was the goal of Zionism. I've said that already and explained the reasons why.

If the Arab population stayed inlace and they voted against further Jewish immigration would that have been accepted? Do you really think the ZIonist leadership would have accepted a state with 45% Arab population?

Would the Arab population wanted to have stay in a Jewish state or would they have relocated to the Arab state of Palestine? The Peel Commission suggested a land and population transfer involving the transfer of some 225,000 Arabs living in the envisaged Jewish state and 1,250 Jews living in a future Arab state - which Weizmann and Ben Gurion persuaded the Jewish Congress to provisionally accept the terms. Moreover the 45% didn't just refer to Arabs only, but also to other minorities such as Druze. Moreover it was expected that there would be continued Jewish immigration to the Jewish state so the 55% Jewish proportion would increase in subsequent years. Not to mention the estimated 758,000–866,000 Jews that were either forced or voluntarily left the Arab countries from 1948-1956.

Meanwhile the Arab state would be 99% Arab. [UNSCOP report 1947]

That they would have refrained from making great changes until a truly representative government was elected? Or was their Leadership which did not reflect the Arab population at all in some way legitimate? The Zionists wanted more land than they were given in the partition, how could that be achieved?

And yet accepted the partition plan which was 56% of Mandatory Palestine which included three fertile lowland plains – the Sharon, the Jeezrell Valley ad the upper Jordan valley with the bulk being the Negev Desert. Have you been to the Negev Desert? Even now the Negev Desert is over half of the current Israeli state.

The Zionist leadership had no concern for the right of the Arab Population of Palestine. They opposed Arab political representation, they opposed equal pay, they opposed the employment of Arab Palestinians, or the selling of land to them.

The Zionists leadership made no attempt to safe guard the live tor property of the Arab population. For all the lofty Rhetoric of the declaration the State of Israel, expulsions and massacres had already occurred, extremists militias were operating with the co-opertaion and supplies of the Haganah. What efforts were made to live to the Rhetoric?

Mohammed Amin al-Husseini a Palestinian nationalist stated in March 1948 to an interviewer in a Jaffa daily Al Sarih that the Arabs did not intend merely to prevent partition but "would continue fighting until the Zionists were annihilated."

This was reflected by the similar reactions of the surrounding Arab states.

The Zionist leadership made no attempt to prevent the expulsion of large number of the Arab population and on occasion ordered it.

Well at least you've now moved past the "Master Plan", "intentionalist' theory of Palestinian expulsion. I've never denied there was a certain amount of expulsions. Do try and move beyond the black / white version of the Palestinian / Israeli issue where the evil Zionists have been solely responsible for the Palestinian / Israel issue . Have you ever criticised any aspect the Palestinian role in their current situation, such as the continued refusal by Hamas to recognise Israel's right to exist?

Once again.

In The Irish Times of February 2008, Benny Morris summarized his analysis of the Palestinian exodus as follows: "Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops."

The Zionist leadership made sure the Arab population once expelled or fled would not be allowed to return.

Why would they allow them to return? Seven Arab nations had declared war on Israel in 1948. In whatever way they had left Palestine

If they were opposed to the expulsions or welcomed the Arab population why did they refuse to accept them back?

Why do you think? Accepting back an Arab population that had largely shown themselves to be hostile to the coccept of a Jewish state substantial Arab minority, would establish a fifth column in their midst.

The commitment to accepting Arab Palestinians was non existent.

As it was from Jordan and other surrounding Arab countries, especially after Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1950.

Do you think Ben Gurion was an hones person in his public statements? Would he lie if it further his political ends? You like Egypt attacked Israel rather than the other way around in 1967?

Are you suggesting that Egypt didn't blockade to Israeli shipping the Straits of Tiran in 1967, through which ninety percent of Israeli oil passed through?

Do you think he didn't want all of mandatory Palestine for the state of Israel? In 1956 he asked Britain and France in Israel could annex the west bank, the Golan and southern Lebanon as well as the Sinai.

Ben Gurion's priority in 1956 was to destroy or limit Nasser's power and the forces of Arab nationalism that he had unleashed, which he felt given Nasser's anti-Israeli rhetoric directly theatened the state of Israel. As a result some Israeli Generals had been pressing very persistently for a 'preventive war' against Egypt, ever since the Czech arms deal was announced by Nasser in September 1955. Any such plan for wholesale Israeli expansion woudn't be feasible without the support of the major powers - Britain, France, and the United States. The French weren't interested. Anthony Eden made it clear that if Israel attacked Jordan, they were bound to go to Jordan’s help under the terms of the Anglo-Jordanian Treaty of 1946. In the end after the war Ben Gurion didn't annex the occupied Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula, but withdrew from the territory in 1957.

 

[Roylion]

The only delusion I'm witnessing in this thread, is coming from posters continuing to deny the bleeding obvious, as highlighted in this map....Don't let the facts get in the way of Zionist/Likud party apologetics.

What are the source of these maps? Are they accurate? For example, Map 3 shows "Palestine" which was actually part of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (occupied by Jordan in 1948, annexed in 1950) until 1967. Gaza was occupied by Egypt between 1959-1967 and before then was ruled by the All Palestine Government (1948-1959) which had its' HQ in Cairo from 1948 onwards. All references in Egypt and Syria of an independent Gaza (Palestine) were abolished and Egyptian administration was officially imposed.

Is the fourth a political map (e.g. territory controlled by the Palestinian Authority) or is it a demographic map? What does the first map indicate? Private land controlled by Arabs and Jews in the mandate?

Why don't I just produce this one? Equally as valid?

Or this one?

 

[pugsville]

You've parroted his arguement that there was some sort of intended master plan from the beginning of Zionism to totally remove Palestinian Arabs from Israel.

No.Not totally removal, removal the vast majority, Noi there wasn't a articulated plan, But it was a clear Goal. And there were some actions to do so. There was no need of some master plan.

Yes? A Jewish homeland was the goal of Zionism. Ive said that already and explained the reasons why.

Would you accept the mass migration foreigners with intention of making you a minority indoor own country? The Zionsits expected to be able to impose of others what they themselves found unacceptable. It fails the basic test of treat others as you wish to be treated yourself. Zionsim was racist colonialism.

Would the Arab population wanted to have stay in a Jewish state or would they have relocated to the Arab state of Palestine? The Peel Commission suggested a land and population transfer involving the transfer of some 225,000 Arabs living in the envisaged Jewish state and 1,250 Jews living in a future Arab state - whic Weizmann and Ben Gurion persuaded the Jewish Congress to provisionally accept the terms. Mreover the 45% didn't just refer to Arabs only but also to other minorities such as Druze. Moreover it was expected that there would be continued Jewish immigration to the Jewish state so the 55% Jewish proportion would increase in subsequent years. Not to mention the estimated 758,000–866,000 Jews that have been either forced or voluntarily left the Arab countries from 1948-1956.

So the immigration policy of this new state would be set without any consultation or democratic decision making process. Jews would object with their area being flooded with new Arab immigrants. The Fact is the Arab population was included solely to get control of the land. They were not accepted as citizens, they were not to be consulted but dictated to.

And yet accepted the partition plan which was 56% of Mandatory Palestine which included three fertile lowland plains – the Sharon, the Jeezrell Valley ad the upper Jordan valley with the bulk being the Negev Desert. Have you been to the Negev Desert? Even now the Negev Desert is over half of the current Israeli state.

The Partition plan ws manifestly unfair. Wy should any area majority areas neb included.

Why would they allow them to return? Seven Arab nations had declared war on Israel in 1948. In whatever way they had left Palestine

Because it was the right thing to do? because they recognised the Arab population has having equal rights?
Why should the actions of Arab regimes outside of Palestine have anything to do with the rights of the Palestinian Arab population?

Why do you think? Accepting back an Arab population that had largely shown themselves to be hostile to the coccept of a Jewish state substantial Arab minority, would establish a fifth column in their midst.

Why shouldn't they be hostile to concept of a Jewish state? The Zionists in the mandate of Palestine constantly opposed equal rights for the Arab population, making them second class citizens. So 100,00 were expelled, 700,000 denied return for what? they are collectively guilty? Perhaps the Zionists should have sought a partition where they only sought to get control of the Jewish majority areas, forcing their regime in the Arab majority areas was hardly going to popular. If you treat people badly they are going to be hostile.

As it was from Jordan and other surrounding Arab countries, especially after Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1950.

relevance?

Are you suggesting that Egypt didn't blockade to Israeli shipping the Straits of Tiran in 1967, through which ninety percent of Israeli oil passed through?

That is not attacking. Israeli attacked starting the war in 1967.

Ben Gurion's priority in 1956 was to destroy or limit Nasser's power and the forces of Arab nationalism that he had unleashed, which he felt given Nasser's anti-Israeli rhetoric directly theatened the state of Israel. As a result some Israeli Generals had been pressing very persistently for a 'preventive war; against Egypt, ever since the Czech arms deal was announced by Nasser in September 1955. Any such plan for wholesale Israeli expansion woudn't be feasible without the support of the major powers - Britain, France, and the United States. The French weren't interested. Anthony Eden made it clear that if Israel attacked Jordan, they were bound to go to Jordan’s help under the terms of the Anglo-Jordanian Treaty of 1946. In the end after the war Ben Gurion didn't annex the occupied Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula, but withdrew from the territory in 1957.

ben Gurion still had expansionist plans/gaols.

 

[pugsville]

In the end after the war Ben Gurion didn't annex the occupied Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula, but withdrew from the territory in 1957.

Only because Einhower forced him to. Israel definitely pushed as hard as possible to retain Sharm El Shiek and gaza. ben Gurion only backed down because the US threatened sanctions.

"Ben Gurion openly declared before the Knesset on Jaurary 23 that Israel planned to stay in Gaza and retain the west coast of the gulf of Aqaba."
- Page 431 Warriors at the Suez.

 

[kwikfix]

Avi Yemini
39 mins ·
May you all have a very blessed Easter.

 

[Sainteric]

Only because Einhower forced him to. Israel definitely pushed as hard as possible to retain Sharm El Shiek and gaza. ben Gurion only backed down because the US threatened sanctions.

"Ben Gurion openly declared before the Knesset on Jaurary 23 that Israel planned to stay in Gaza and retain the west coast of the gulf of Aqaba."
- Page 431 Warriors at the Suez.

What ben gurion said to knesset and what his actual aim were two different things. There are multiple sources (as you well/or should know) that state israel had nointention to hold on to all that land.

Also at that time israel was/almost at war with all its neighbours. Understandbly palestinian inside it borders were a very distant priority.

 

[pugsville]

What ben gurion said to knesset and what his actual aim were two different things. There are multiple sources (as you well/or should know) that state israel had nointention to hold on to all that land.

Also at that time israel was/almost at war with all its neighbours. Understandbly palestinian inside it borders were a very distant priority.

Why did the USA and Eisenhower feel the need to threaten sanctions unless Israel withdrew. The Entire purpose of the exercise for Israel was expansion, it's why they schemed with frame and Britain.

The Priority was a s getting rid of as Palestinians as they thought they could get away with.

 

[Sainteric]

Why did the USA and Eisenhower feel the need to threaten sanctions unless Israel withdrew. The Entire purpose of the exercise for Israel was expansion, it's why they schemed with frame and Britain.

If you really think that you need serious help.

London and Washington had a serious issue in communication and intentions that caused most of this. The only thing the usa was worried about was the expansion of ussr influence in the ME they couldnt give a s**t about israel.

 

[pugsville]

If you really think that you need serious help.

London and Washington had a serious issue in communication and intentions that caused most of this. The only thing the usa was worried about was the expansion of ussr influence in the ME they couldnt give a s**t about israel.

It's just historical fact. Go do some reading.

 

[Benny78]

This is amazing. I had no idea they seized an Arab country directly after the war and built their own little country within. I thought Israel had been around since the days of Jesus.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

This is amazing. I had no idea they seized an Arab country directly after the war and built their own little country within. I thought Israel had been around since the days of Jesus.

Variations of the nation of Israel existed in ancient times, sometimes as an independent kingdom or as a client state of other empires, mainly the Romans. But Palestine/Israel area has largely belonged to the Arabic peoples for a long time. Under the Byzantines and Turks especially. The late 19th century, they changed with immigration and the initial rise of Zionism. Later the Balfour declaration and other divisions you still see today between both peoples.

 

[Power Raid]

This is amazing. I had no idea they seized an Arab country directly after the war and built their own little country within. I thought Israel had been around since the days of Jesus.

Its quite an amazing bit of history and depending on what date back in history one chooses, the owners of the land have "indefeasible" claim to title.

Standing back, the concept of any race of religion has an indefeasible claim to the land based on history simply doesn't work. If this logical and legal basis is used as the starting point, the pathway forward for the nation and compensation is clear.

 

[JoondalupJ]

The only delusion I'm witnessing in this thread, is coming from posters continuing to deny the bleeding obvious, as highlighted in this map....Don't let the facts get in the way of Zionist/Likud party apologetics.

Exactly.
Another thing and a bit of a rant, , this has never been an anti Jewish thing for me. Its always about the power that steam rolls a group that can barely defend itself. And that goes for anywhere in the world.

In Israel a country declared by the league of nations. And there is absolute evidence that it went from we want some place to call our home, with safety, have religious freedom, and a Jewish state.
To... We want every ounce of territory that could be construed as Israel in any manner what so ever, and we will walk over the top of any one getting in our way, even those Palestinians that also..."want a place to call home, with safety,have religious freedom and a Palestinian state."
The problem is the rest of the world had a Jewish problem after WW2 , a damned final solution was needed, and with a bit of religious raving chucked in there , was the excuse. God gave this land to me. Well unfortunately he /she /it did not give you anything.
And the jack boot has been a significant part of the invasion of the Palestine region. So blame the world after world WW2.
Should have put Israel in North West Australia, like I've said a hundred times before.

If that had have happened we would probably not have had two towers , Afghanistan , Iraq disaster , the forming of ISIS, all the Arab angst about Israel, the provocativeness from Russia and the USA, the massive take on of coward acts of terror in the beginning, the home made rockets, all the little things that happened to have all sides screaming out, we are in the right ! Israel and the "winners"you were wrong.
It all came from what the world did in that part of the planet, after WW2.

Now have a look at what Versailles did to the world after WW1, NO ONE LEARNT.
And there was a so called Christian nation rebuilding out of hatred, into, yes a Christian ISIS or CSGS Christian State of German Slaughtering! Of other poor bastards.

We have had WW3 for years and years, and as much as I despise Islamic fanaticism and the scum that drive them, I certainly can see how downtrodden people in Gaza feel, perhaps a bit like the uprising Jewish underground in Warsaw! Boots and tanks and bombs against them. And the Germans supposed to be a sophisticated race?

Only the strong can end all this problem. In Israel , it is the Israeli government and military, they could come to terms with a two state set up.
And as far as the world goes with ISIS? Because they fight like cowards, and commit horrendous damage with terror, that doesn't seem to get any better, they may have to be negotiated with one day. And then hope they can call off their attack dogs who murder children and any one else.
The Lone Wolf thing is something probably you can never stop, but if some sort of arrangement can be arranged we might , we just might get some safety and peace in relative terms on this earth. And the ISIS murderers can at least call off their paid killers. You fight what you can't see!
Unless we annihilate the middle east. That is always the stupid talk, it won't happen, but Israel could take one step forward with courage and welcome a two state solution.
Maybe to save a final solution from happening again?

 

[Power Raid]

The only delusion I'm witnessing in this thread, is coming from posters continuing to deny the bleeding obvious, as highlighted in this map....Don't let the facts get in the way of Zionist/Likud party apologetics.

I don't think Israel would be created today in the same way it was, if it needed to be done again. However, it was done and all Israeli citizens need to live with the future "together". The concept of division by race or religion is not only petty but offensive.

That doesn't mean recognition or compensation but like Australia, we have to move forward rather than the past.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I don't think Israel would be created today in the same way it was, if it needed to be done again. However, it was done and all Israeli citizens need to live with the future "together". The concept of division by race or religion is not only petty but offensive.

That doesn't mean recognition or compensation but like Australia, we have to move forward rather than the past.

Israel's only inexorable way forward is the annihilation of any & all Palestinian land & quarters.....Period.

 

[Power Raid]

Israel's only inexorable way forward is the annihilation of any & all Palestinian land & quarters.....Period.

we are one people......as long as the state provides equal treatment to all of its citizens

so I don't see the us vs them being valid like we may have 100 years ago.