Analysis It Starts With A Midfield Coach

[barrackers]

The trick with a ruckman is to tap to your midfielders...

Found Naitanui's training method of tapping footys into bins interesting. His athletic ability is on another level, but that wouldn't count for much if his tap work wasn't first class.

 

[ClaytonM]

We are the Worst Coached team in the AFL by a Country Mile

No we are not.

We made it to the 2nd week of the finals. 12 other teams didn’t manage that.

Last week Buckley was freaking genius to pull off a win in the west.

Bit of perspective.

 

[chop_me]

No we are not.

We made it to the 2nd week of the finals. 12 other teams didn’t manage that.

Last week Buckley was. A freaking genius to put off a win in the west.

Bit of perspective.

Credit where it’s due, Buckley did great last week to pull off the upset.

However, that game aside, his reluctance to curb the over-handpass game plan throughout the season is mind-boggling.

He definitely isn’t the worst coach, but still not good enough. I think we can do better.


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[zhoung]

We had one in Buddha Hocking. We let him go and retained Harvey who is like an old piece of furniture your grandma left you in her will that you can't get rid of without causing a family spat.

”Bring Back Buddha”, and get a real ruck coach!

 

[zhoung]

I've said it for 12-18 months that too often grundy goes for these little taps. I'd love for him once or twice a qtr to just belt the ball 20-30 metres forward. At least if we get beaten it's another 30 metres away from the opposition goals.

Also would make us more unpredictable.

 

[Apex36]

We had one in Buddha Hocking. We let him go and retained Harvey who is like an old piece of furniture your grandma left you in her will that you can't get rid of without causing a family spat.

Nailed it. You can usually tell an assistants worth within a few years because they are either poached or offered head coach roles. Harvey has been at Collingwood for what, 8 years now? Literally no other club has even shown the slightest interest in grabbing him. Every time he takes over a line it regresses. We showed real improvement at our stoppages with the addition of Hocking, and instead of doing everything we can to keep him we throw him out the door and retain the dead wood in Harvey. If he wasn’t such good mates with Buckley he’d have been gone years ago, and honestly, if Walsh was doing his job properly he’d be giving Harvey the tap on the shoulder rather than just trying to keep the peace.

 

[zhoung]

We win hit outs every week, lose clearances. I don’t know how many h goals were kicked from clearances but we always get flogged here...

Add to that what the north supporter said in trade thread, that we sit 1st for possessions yet 18th for metres gained.... 18th!, it paints a bleak picture. I’m surprised we made the 8 off those stats...

OK hear me out here, given our dominance in hit outs, yet continually losing clearances. Wouldn’t trading Grundy instead of committing to 7yrs at $1million have been the smart thing to do?
I understand it’s easy in hindsight but “ the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result”.
We failed to turn ruck dominance into clearances, so we could have turned it into draft currency and freed up cap space to chase a free agent.

 

[stevebbb]

We 100% need a new midfield coach, get some new ideas. Our centre bounces are a joke. Have we ever kicked a goal straight from a centre bounce? We are always made to work so hard for our goals.


We need to talk about players though:

Pendles' time as a centre bounce specialist is done. We need to make the most of his kicking and decision making, he needs to line up at f50 or d50 and run in to the stoppage.

Treloar is not a centre bounce specialist. He needs to line up on a wing and run in to the contest. Copy guys like Merrett and Josh Kelly. Think he'll thrive in this role.

Elliott has not had years of experience training and playing as a midfielder, especially as a centre bounce stoppage beast (yet he looks like the only bloke who can win a clearance sometimes).

Sidebottom is not a centre bounce midfielder.

Sier's engine concerns me, has like 60/70% ToG when he's actually playing. Lots of injury concerns, questions of his work rate. If he wants to make it, he needs to work hard in the off season and drop some kegs. No confidence from me.


You have Adams and the ruckman/Grundy (not even going to bring him into this discussion) locked in, then we need 2 different players.


We need to bring in a player who has shown some ability, prides themselves on being a contested beast, somebody young, and somebody that won't cost too much. Brodie? Constable? Caldwell? There has to be somebody out there. Let's be real, we're not getting a superstar midfielder.


We also need to make a decision with Crisp and Quaynor, train them in the midfield group in preseason. I reckon Maynard would thrive, but he's way too valuable down back. The other 2 are replaceable down back imo. I swear Pendles can play Crisp/Quaynor's role, not like they're super quick.

 

[well left]

Sam Mitchell come on down. If he shows good signs then he can put pressure on to replace Buckley down the track.

This. One of the best at stoppages too in his time.


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[Robroy22]

Agree wholeheartedly. Robert Harvey has to go. As far away from this club as possible. He wasn't good enough for his own club of St Kilda, where he's an absolute champion and arguably their greatest ever player (are the Saints more ruthless than us..?), and he wasn't good enough for Carlton. If he wasn't good enough for those two sh*te midfields (at the time), what on earth makes us think he's good enough to be in charge of the midfield talent we have.

I also think we need a ruck coach. I loved Anthony Rocca as a player. He was one of my idols growing up. Even wore 23 as a kid because of him. But he should not be our ruck coach. He was never a premier ruck - much better at either end of the ground.

I miss Buddha and Longmuir. We were never going to be able to keep Longmuir, but I still miss him.

Don't forget Tapping....Brisbane haven't!!

 

[Robroy22]

Sam Mitchell come on down. If he shows good signs then he can put pressure on to replace Buckley down the track.

That's why Hawthorn got him back.....to replace Clarko.

 

[Robroy22]

We 100% need a new midfield coach, get some new ideas. Our centre bounces are a joke. Have we ever kicked a goal straight from a centre bounce? We are always made to work so hard for our goals.


We need to talk about players though:

Pendles' time as a centre bounce specialist is done. We need to make the most of his kicking and decision making, he needs to line up at f50 or d50 and run in to the stoppage.

Treloar is not a centre bounce specialist. He needs to line up on a wing and run in to the contest. Copy guys like Merrett and Josh Kelly. Think he'll thrive in this role.

Elliott has not had years of experience training and playing as a midfielder, especially as a centre bounce stoppage beast (yet he looks like the only bloke who can win a clearance sometimes).

Sidebottom is not a centre bounce midfielder.

Sier's engine concerns me, has like 60/70% ToG when he's actually playing. Lots of injury concerns, questions of his work rate. If he wants to make it, he needs to work hard in the off season and drop some kegs. No confidence from me.


You have Adams and the ruckman/Grundy (not even going to bring him into this discussion) locked in, then we need 2 different players.


We need to bring in a player who has shown some ability, prides themselves on being a contested beast, somebody young, and somebody that won't cost too much. Brodie? Constable? Caldwell? There has to be somebody out there. Let's be real, we're not getting a superstar midfielder.


We also need to make a decision with Crisp and Quaynor, train them in the midfield group in preseason. I reckon Maynard would thrive, but he's way too valuable down back. The other 2 are replaceable down back imo. I swear Pendles can play Crisp/Quaynor's role, not like they're super quick.

Nailed it Steve!....We need to accept that our mids aren't up to it (Pendles included) and that we'll need to change these mids to improve.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Link?

This has to be one of the most stupidest things I've ever heard of in AFL. Grundy was the SOLE REASON why our terrible centre bounce midfield broke even in 2018 - 2019, look what happened since?

I can’t find it at the moment but will keep looking.

 

[barrackers]

We also need to make a decision with Crisp and Quaynor, train them in the midfield group in preseason. I reckon Maynard would thrive, but he's way too valuable down back. The other 2 are replaceable down back imo. I swear Pendles can play Crisp/Quaynor's role, not like they're super quick.

Howe's return coupled with Madgen's improvement may help. While Madgen has 6 cm on Maynard he plays smaller than his height and is capable of playing Maynard's defensive role. We may lose a little offensively, however Madgen started to show some as his confidence improved.

I'd train Maynard with the midfield group over summer; our outstanding backline group should be able to cover the change, but we could always shift Maynard back during the season proper if required.

 

[TKiL]

I've said it for 12-18 months that too often grundy goes for these little taps. I'd love for him once or twice a qtr to just belt the ball 20-30 metres forward. At least if we get beaten it's another 30 metres away from the opposition goals.

and hello ............................. Ray Gabelich

 

[gouki88]

Howe's return coupled with Madgen's improvement may help. While Madgen has 6 cm on Maynard he plays smaller than his height and is capable of playing Maynard's defensive role. We may lose a little offensively, however Madgen started to show some as his confidence improved.

I'd train Maynard with the midfield group over summer; our outstanding backline group should be able to cover the change, but we could always shift Maynard back during the season proper if required.

That's exactly the kind of innovation I fear we won't come up with

 

[legendstatus]

Moving Maynard & JDG with Adams in the middle would be a good start one thinks. Bulls and speed


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[Quicky]

Our biggest priority in the offseason, in my opinion, should be a specialist midfield coach. Our midfield is dysfunctional, and yet we are poised to pour resources into Reef and Nick Daicos over the next two years, while older stalwarts see out their careers. We can’t afford to fu** this up like we have arguably six (6!) first round picks dedicated to our midfield in Scharenberg, Freeman, Treloar and Beams, which yielded only Treloar as a viable best 22 player.

At present, Treloar is an excellent, run all day, burst mid but no good at centre clearances and better off not kicking the ball.

Grundy is an AA ruckman who becomes another midfielder as soon as the ball hits the ground, but allegedly has been coached not to take possession after the tap this year... despite the tap not being his strength.

Sidebottom is slow and better used on a wing or a flank, then joining back in for stoppages around the ground.

Elliott has lost his weapons as a forward and is probably more effective as a midfielder, yet lacks the size to move an opponent in the middle.

Sier has the skills but lacks the tank and to date is too frequently on the trainer’s table.

Pendlebury is a wonderful player in his twilight, but not quick, and tends to be more the second possession player or link man than the bullocking type at this stage because his ball use is so good.

Adams is the opposite, he’s the ball-first mid who is better off dishing to Pendlebury, Elliott or Treloar.

De Goey has more runs on the board as a forward, but can put in midfield cameos, usually when we are already struggling for answers.

We have a bunch of players with different strengths and deficiencies, and they’re not meshing together as a unit. We’re trying to force square pegs into round holes. Modern coaching is about putting players into positions to succeed, and we seem to be incapable of doing that in order to stick to some pre-ordained structure which isn’t working.

I don’t know if it needs a gofundme page to get off the ground, but if the way forward is through Reef and Nicky D, we are going to have to coach them properly. Nick Daicos has already spoken about the positive influence Budha Hocking has had on him, and yet he was jettisoned with COVID cutbacks. I want to see a proper midfield coach installed, not just whoever is on rotation from their last assignment.

I couldn't agree more. It's been plain as day since the 2018 GF where we were completely outcoached by Simpson and Hickmott on the day. We've done precisely nothing since then to change things. I'd be pursuing Adrian Hickmott personally, who also has head coaching experience at VFL and WAFL level. Would love to see Tapping return also.

 

[ClaytonM]

Credit where it’s due, Buckley did great last week to pull off the upset.

However, that game aside, his reluctance to curb the over-handpass game plan throughout the season is mind-boggling.

He definitely isn’t the worst coach, but still not good enough. I think we can do better.


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That is more like perspective.

 

[jackcass]

Nailed it Steve!....We need to accept that our mids aren't up to it (Pendles included) and that we'll need to change these mids to improve.

I think Pendles is still very much up to a midfield role, the issue is the support he has in there. Other than Adams, it has been pretty inconsistent this year. Elliott is adapting to his new role but it’s a long time since he was getting regular midfield rotations and he needs time to develop into the role. JDG can have impact but his rotations are limited.

I thought Sier was finding his feet prior to his calf injury, and I’m optimistic Daicos can transition into the guts at some stage if needed, and I’m optimistic on the potential of Tyler Brown, Randall, and Bianco, but none of that helped this year.

 

[Robroy22]

I think Pendles is still very much up to a midfield role, the issue is the support he has in there. Other than Adams, it has been pretty inconsistent this year. Elliott is adapting to his new role but it’s a long time since he was getting regular midfield rotations and he needs time to develop into the role. JDG can have impact but his rotations are limited.

I thought Sier was finding his feet prior to his calf injury, and I’m optimistic Daicos can transition into the guts at some stage if needed, and I’m optimistic on the potential of Tyler Brown, Randall, and Bianco, but none of that helped this year.

Don't get me wrong mate, Pendles is all class...but in the scheme of things if we're relying on a 33 year old 312 gamer as our starting mid then there's something very wrong. I'm happy for him to play minutes through the mids (and if need be injected in should we need his special talents) but he's spending his 80% game time in there and its too much to expect. We need a couple more quick bulls in there to feed the ball out or to get that all important first kick from the centre square. Let Pendles shimmy his way off a wing or off half back and just deliver the pill like

 

[peter9789]

Spot on TRS .... fixing the midfield is key to addressing the dysfunction of our forward line.

Dales Tapping anyone? Ex Pies VFL coach and was highly respected at the time. Currently midfield coach at Brisbane Lions - doing ok there!

Please sack Harvey now and do whatever it takes to get Tapping.

If this fails go on bended knee, apologise to Buddha Hocking and ask him to come back.

Oh did I say sack Harvey


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[jackcass]

Spot on TRS .... fixing the midfield is key to addressing the dysfunction of our forward line.

Dales Tapping anyone? Ex Pies VFL coach and was highly respected at the time. Currently midfield coach at Brisbane Lions - doing ok there!

Please sack Harvey now and do whatever it takes to get Tapping.

If this fails go on bended knee, apologise to Buddha Hocking and ask him to come back.

Oh did I say sack Harvey


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You have to wonder if things would have worked out differently for Buddha this year if he hadn’t been appointed coach of the VFL in a season where COVID killed that off.

 

[magpies42]

Our biggest priority in the offseason, in my opinion, should be a specialist midfield coach. Our midfield is dysfunctional, and yet we are poised to pour resources into Reef and Nick Daicos over the next two years, while older stalwarts see out their careers. We can’t afford to fu** this up like we have arguably six (6!) first round picks dedicated to our midfield in Scharenberg, Freeman, Treloar and Beams, which yielded only Treloar as a viable best 22 player.

At present, Treloar is an excellent, run all day, burst mid but no good at centre clearances and better off not kicking the ball.

Grundy is an AA ruckman who becomes another midfielder as soon as the ball hits the ground, but allegedly has been coached not to take possession after the tap this year... despite the tap not being his strength.

Sidebottom is slow and better used on a wing or a flank, then joining back in for stoppages around the ground.

Elliott has lost his weapons as a forward and is probably more effective as a midfielder, yet lacks the size to move an opponent in the middle.

Sier has the skills but lacks the tank and to date is too frequently on the trainer’s table.

Pendlebury is a wonderful player in his twilight, but not quick, and tends to be more the second possession player or link man than the bullocking type at this stage because his ball use is so good.

Adams is the opposite, he’s the ball-first mid who is better off dishing to Pendlebury, Elliott or Treloar.

De Goey has more runs on the board as a forward, but can put in midfield cameos, usually when we are already struggling for answers.

We have a bunch of players with different strengths and deficiencies, and they’re not meshing together as a unit. We’re trying to force square pegs into round holes. Modern coaching is about putting players into positions to succeed, and we seem to be incapable of doing that in order to stick to some pre-ordained structure which isn’t working.

I don’t know if it needs a gofundme page to get off the ground, but if the way forward is through Reef and Nicky D, we are going to have to coach them properly. Nick Daicos has already spoken about the positive influence Budha Hocking has had on him, and yet he was jettisoned with COVID cutbacks. I want to see a proper midfield coach installed, not just whoever is on rotation from their last assignment.

Hard to say really, especially without being able to watch the game from the stands to see how they set up. I suspect it’s more about the teams defence first mentality...meaning we sacrifice our ability to clear the ball at a centre bounce or to transition with any efficacy because we defend first.

 

[Albert Parker]

As noted in another thread

On Bucks and the coaching panel

Start of the season I identified
- Grundy's connectivity with the mids
- Mids ability to find our forwards
as key things I'd like to see improvement in.
That view still holds.

Even Nathan Buckley's father, a ruckman himself, told me that he thinks they need a proper ruck coach and better stoppage work.
He was coached by Polly Farmer briefly and he said he was amazed how much he learnt in a short period of time.

There is a clear shortfall in the way we manage rucks and clearances.
- Why does Grundy knock it forward at the boundary line when we have no sweepers moving through to collect the ball?
- Why spread his arms, hold his ground but then knock it to his feet at the centre clearances when we don't have an abundance of big bodied mids on the move to barge it out of there?
Win the tap out, lose the clearance too often.

We've invested too heavily in Grundy, Treloar, Adams, Pendlebury, Sidebottom to then have Anthony Rocca as Ruck coach and not be getting the best out of the players abilities. What does Robert Harvey bring to the equation? Do Buckley and Harvey adequately value the role of a good tap ruckman to invest in this area? Neither really played under one for most of their careers. Neither played in a premiership.

While Bucks has shown a lot of love for his team and environment is one of care for each other, I do fear we lack a hardened edge at times.
When I look at the way the Tigers play today, the Hawks under Clarkson, the Lions of 2001-2003 there has been a hardened edge which I fear may be an inhibiting factor to gaining the ultimate success. But I am not strong in this view.

I don't think we've been well served by our stagnant play at times. It hurts our scoring capacity. It was apparent from early in last nights game. By contrast, last week there was a sense of urgency in our play and it was to our benefit and we scored heavily.
We clearly lacked urgency last night and watched Geelong take the ball, with two blokes then descending upon them to tackle, freeing up another on the outside.

I've actually been impressed by the improvement in Madgen, but Roughead, Mayne, Madgen (and Sharenberg when there) in our defensive half are too slow and too safe as ball users. Aish was the same. Crisp has also been a butcher at times, despite looking to press more. IQ has been a breath of fresh air down back for his ability to run and carry and move the ball well by foot. Noble has generally had a sense of urgency. Maynard is generally a good and offensive kick. Moore is quite offensive in his style. We've missed Howe. I favour giving Murphy more of a run as a more attacking kicking option.