It's Australia bidding,not just one code-Steve Waugh

Admiral Byng

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#26
Look, we understand you aren't the greatest fan of football but it is embarrassingly obvious to all that your indifference towards hosting the World Cup stems more from your dislike of the sport then any real nation of trying to save your nation. I think it is pretty pathetic that you are disguising your dislike of football as "saving the nation from this folly". By the way, if you could point me in the direction of your anti Olympics rants it would be much appreciated. Not surprisingly, since it wasn't a football only tournament, you were not so vehemently against it.
My objection is, and has always been the cost. My opinion is that Australia's bid should be minimalist, we are not a great European football power, nor a densly populated European country. But there seems to be this urge to present our bid as equal to or exceeding anything that Europe could offer. The gap between that expectation and a realistic minimalist bid is several tens of billion dollars. It gets to the stage (and well beyond IMHO) where it will start costing more money than it brings in. That has always been the issue for me.

The discusion about high speed rail in the other thread is a classic example of what I mean. We aren't a densely populated European or Asian country with a high speed rail transport system. The FIFA report lists the distance and lack of alternatives to air travel as a negative in our bid. Instead of just accepting that this is a fact of life and our bid has a few imperfections, we get a stampede of people saying let's build high speed rail for World Cup.

It is precisely this mentality that our bid has to outdo everyone else regardless of the cost that I object to, since I will be one of those paying for it. No I'm not a keen follower of the code, you must accept that there are many that aren't, but we are all taxpayers, and we have a legitmate voice in calling for a limit on spending.

I have only been posting here since May last year, the Com Games were 2006, and Sydney Olympics were in 2000, so its a bit hard to backdate my posts. Besides, those were VIC and NSW events so I didn't get involved in it as a West Aussie. Further, what is wrong is learning the lesson from the Sydney Olympics that these events always cost more than expected and return far less than expected, so we need to make sure we don't make the same mistakes for the World Cup. We need to keep a tight check on what we are spending to make it work for us, not just open the checkbook and break the bank trying to outdo every other bid.
 

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Thread starter #27
Australia was only of the most frugal bids.We can't and won't match the $80 billion from Russia or the $500 billion from Qatar but we will get to build some infrastructure that needs to be built-to sustain and increase our reputation to the many thousands that will come here as a result,again and again
 

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#28
My objection is, and has always been the cost. My opinion is that Australia's bid should be minimalist, we are not a great European football power, nor a densly populated European country. But there seems to be this urge to present our bid as equal to or exceeding anything that Europe could offer. The gap between that expectation and a realistic minimalist bid is several tens of billion dollars. It gets to the stage (and well beyond IMHO) where it will start costing more money than it brings in. That has always been the issue for me.

The discusion about high speed rail in the other thread is a classic example of what I mean. We aren't a densely populated European or Asian country with a high speed rail transport system. The FIFA report lists the distance and lack of alternatives to air travel as a negative in our bid. Instead of just accepting that this is a fact of life and our bid has a few imperfections, we get a stampede of people saying let's build high speed rail for World Cup.

It is precisely this mentality that our bid has to outdo everyone else regardless of the cost that I object to, since I will be one of those paying for it. No I'm not a keen follower of the code, you must accept that there are many that aren't, but we are all taxpayers, and we have a legitmate voice in calling for a limit on spending.

I have only been posting here since May last year, the Com Games were 2006, and Sydney Olympics were in 2000, so its a bit hard to backdate my posts. Besides, those were VIC and NSW events so I didn't get involved in it as a West Aussie. Further, what is wrong is learning the lesson from the Sydney Olympics that these events always cost more than expected and return far less than expected, so we need to make sure we don't make the same mistakes for the World Cup. We need to keep a tight check on what we are spending to make it work for us, not just open the checkbook and break the bank trying to outdo every other bid.

Thought you would post something like that.

Very touching of you to see that you are soooooo concerned about taxpayers dollars being spent. Fair enough about the Sydney Olympics bid - I don't know what age you were in 1993 but I certainly wasn't old enough then to discuss the economic side of things.

Just out of interest, could you please point me in the directions of your posts/blogs showing outrage at the Rudd/Gillard government's $47 billion economic stimulus package? You know, seeing as you are so concerned about taxpayer revenue surely you would have posted hundreds of arguments/rebuttals in opposition to our federal government spending nearly triple of what World Cup 2022 us going to cost. Because if you haven't/didn't show any opposition to the stimulus package then clearly your antagonism towards World Cup 2022 is based 100% on your dislike of football rather then any real economic concerns.

And just on that, I understand you don't follow the code. I don't particularly follow Golf, and I didn't particularly want my state government spending money on Tiger Woods. And I certainly didn't want my state government to spend over a billion dollars on the "Myki" ticketing system. What I do realise (and you seem to struggle with) is these decisions are made by our elected government. If you don't like what they do, vote them out. But don't piss and moan because they are spending taxpayer money on something you don't like personally - that's how a democracy works. Heaven forbid if you were in charge of this country we'd see all sporting infrastructure replaced with Aussie Rules venues only. And I would imagine there would be a ban on anything football related too.

Oh and by the way, nobody is advocating spending money on a HSR link between Sydney - Canberra - Melbourne ONLY for the World Cup; despite what you think an alternative to air travel is desperately needed, Sydney to Melbourne is the fourth busiest air route in the world -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_passenger_air_routes with 780,000 seats per year. Even then, that's nowhere near enough with a shortage of seats / lack of competition meaning us Victorians get slugged traveling to Sydney unless you book a ridiculously long time in advance.
If the HSR took even half of that market (390,000 passengers) - that's over 1000 passengers per day, every year. And yet you still think that it is unsustainable - interesting. A HSR link will benefit Australia for generations to come. Perhaps your animosity towards it is borne more from your location in WA where you couldn't give two shits about travel dramas in NSW/Victoria.
 

Munro_Mick

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#29
Thought you would post something like that.

Very touching of you to see that you are soooooo concerned about taxpayers dollars being spent. Fair enough about the Sydney Olympics bid - I don't know what age you were in 1993 but I certainly wasn't old enough then to discuss the economic side of things.

Just out of interest, could you please point me in the directions of your posts/blogs showing outrage at the Rudd/Gillard government's $47 billion economic stimulus package? You know, seeing as you are so concerned about taxpayer revenue surely you would have posted hundreds of arguments/rebuttals in opposition to our federal government spending nearly triple of what World Cup 2022 us going to cost. Because if you haven't/didn't show any opposition to the stimulus package then clearly your antagonism towards World Cup 2022 is based 100% on your dislike of football rather then any real economic concerns.

And just on that, I understand you don't follow the code. I don't particularly follow Golf, and I didn't particularly want my state government spending money on Tiger Woods. And I certainly didn't want my state government to spend over a billion dollars on the "Myki" ticketing system. What I do realise (and you seem to struggle with) is these decisions are made by our elected government. If you don't like what they do, vote them out. But don't piss and moan because they are spending taxpayer money on something you don't like personally - that's how a democracy works. Heaven forbid if you were in charge of this country we'd see all sporting infrastructure replaced with Aussie Rules venues only. And I would imagine there would be a ban on anything football related too.

Oh and by the way, nobody is advocating spending money on a HSR link between Sydney - Canberra - Melbourne ONLY for the World Cup; despite what you think an alternative to air travel is desperately needed, Sydney to Melbourne is the fourth busiest air route in the world -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_passenger_air_routes with 780,000 seats per year. Even then, that's nowhere near enough with a shortage of seats / lack of competition meaning us Victorians get slugged traveling to Sydney unless you book a ridiculously long time in advance.
If the HSR took even half of that market (390,000 passengers) - that's over 1000 passengers per day, every year. And yet you still think that it is unsustainable - interesting. A HSR link will benefit Australia for generations to come. Perhaps your animosity towards it is borne more from your location in WA where you couldn't give two shits about travel dramas in NSW/Victoria.
I miss the old Spirit of Progress and Southern Aurura trains out of Spencer Street.......ah, I'm getting sentimental here.....
 

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#30
Thought you would post something like that.

Very touching of you to see that you are soooooo concerned about taxpayers dollars being spent. Fair enough about the Sydney Olympics bid - I don't know what age you were in 1993 but I certainly wasn't old enough then to discuss the economic side of things.

Just out of interest, could you please point me in the directions of your posts/blogs showing outrage at the Rudd/Gillard government's $47 billion economic stimulus package? You know, seeing as you are so concerned about taxpayer revenue surely you would have posted hundreds of arguments/rebuttals in opposition to our federal government spending nearly triple of what World Cup 2022 us going to cost. Because if you haven't/didn't show any opposition to the stimulus package then clearly your antagonism towards World Cup 2022 is based 100% on your dislike of football rather then any real economic concerns.

And just on that, I understand you don't follow the code. I don't particularly follow Golf, and I didn't particularly want my state government spending money on Tiger Woods. And I certainly didn't want my state government to spend over a billion dollars on the "Myki" ticketing system. What I do realise (and you seem to struggle with) is these decisions are made by our elected government. If you don't like what they do, vote them out. But don't piss and moan because they are spending taxpayer money on something you don't like personally - that's how a democracy works. Heaven forbid if you were in charge of this country we'd see all sporting infrastructure replaced with Aussie Rules venues only. And I would imagine there would be a ban on anything football related too.

Oh and by the way, nobody is advocating spending money on a HSR link between Sydney - Canberra - Melbourne ONLY for the World Cup; despite what you think an alternative to air travel is desperately needed, Sydney to Melbourne is the fourth busiest air route in the world -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_passenger_air_routes with 780,000 seats per year. Even then, that's nowhere near enough with a shortage of seats / lack of competition meaning us Victorians get slugged traveling to Sydney unless you book a ridiculously long time in advance.
If the HSR took even half of that market (390,000 passengers) - that's over 1000 passengers per day, every year. And yet you still think that it is unsustainable - interesting. A HSR link will benefit Australia for generations to come. Perhaps your animosity towards it is borne more from your location in WA where you couldn't give two shits about travel dramas in NSW/Victoria.
Interesting that 37/50 are wholly within Asia.
 

Admiral Byng

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#31
Thought you would post something like that.

Very touching of you to see that you are soooooo concerned about taxpayers dollars being spent. Fair enough about the Sydney Olympics bid - I don't know what age you were in 1993 but I certainly wasn't old enough then to discuss the economic side of things.

Just out of interest, could you please point me in the directions of your posts/blogs showing outrage at the Rudd/Gillard government's $47 billion economic stimulus package? You know, seeing as you are so concerned about taxpayer revenue surely you would have posted hundreds of arguments/rebuttals in opposition to our federal government spending nearly triple of what World Cup 2022 us going to cost. Because if you haven't/didn't show any opposition to the stimulus package then clearly your antagonism towards World Cup 2022 is based 100% on your dislike of football rather then any real economic concerns.

And just on that, I understand you don't follow the code. I don't particularly follow Golf, and I didn't particularly want my state government spending money on Tiger Woods. And I certainly didn't want my state government to spend over a billion dollars on the "Myki" ticketing system. What I do realise (and you seem to struggle with) is these decisions are made by our elected government. If you don't like what they do, vote them out. But don't piss and moan because they are spending taxpayer money on something you don't like personally - that's how a democracy works. Heaven forbid if you were in charge of this country we'd see all sporting infrastructure replaced with Aussie Rules venues only. And I would imagine there would be a ban on anything football related too.

Oh and by the way, nobody is advocating spending money on a HSR link between Sydney - Canberra - Melbourne ONLY for the World Cup; despite what you think an alternative to air travel is desperately needed, Sydney to Melbourne is the fourth busiest air route in the world -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_passenger_air_routes with 780,000 seats per year. Even then, that's nowhere near enough with a shortage of seats / lack of competition meaning us Victorians get slugged traveling to Sydney unless you book a ridiculously long time in advance.
If the HSR took even half of that market (390,000 passengers) - that's over 1000 passengers per day, every year. And yet you still think that it is unsustainable - interesting. A HSR link will benefit Australia for generations to come. Perhaps your animosity towards it is borne more from your location in WA where you couldn't give two shits about travel dramas in NSW/Victoria.
Oh Gawd... where do I start?

The stimulus package can't be compared to a World Cup bid. The latter is voluntary. It's not like we outbid every other country around the world to host a global financial crisis.

Next, I'm not a Victorian. Let me repeat that: I am not a Victorian. Ican't comment on the Victorian state government spending money on Grands Prix, or Tiger Woods, or this mystical "Myki" system (whatever that may be). Since I'm not a Victorian I have no right to comment on it. I can only comment on Federal or WA matters.

Then again, comment on wider political issues is getting well off-topic for a forum about the World Cup bid. If I did comment more widely others would complain about it going off-topic.

I could write a whole book about high speed rail. The last study in the early 2000s estimated construction costs at $25 million per kilometre. Actual track length on the ground would be close to 1000km. This means a construction cost of $25 billion. Even if financed by government they'd need to raise bonds to fund it, at a very modest interest rate of around 4% this still means $1 billion per year in interest payments alone. Now look at the revenue side, using your figure of around 400,000 passengers per year, tickets would be costed at $2500 just to pay the interest, let alone any other operating costs. Compare $2500 to the cost of an airline ticket.... Viable?
 

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#32
Oh Gawd... where do I start?

The stimulus package can't be compared to a World Cup bid. The latter is voluntary. It's not like we outbid every other country around the world to host a global financial crisis.

Next, I'm not a Victorian. Let me repeat that: I am not a Victorian. Ican't comment on the Victorian state government spending money on Grands Prix, or Tiger Woods, or this mystical "Myki" system (whatever that may be). Since I'm not a Victorian I have no right to comment on it. I can only comment on Federal or WA matters.

Then again, comment on wider political issues is getting well off-topic for a forum about the World Cup bid. If I did comment more widely others would complain about it going off-topic.

I could write a whole book about high speed rail. The last study in the early 2000s estimated construction costs at $25 million per kilometre. Actual track length on the ground would be close to 1000km. This means a construction cost of $25 billion. Even if financed by government they'd need to raise bonds to fund it, at a very modest interest rate of around 4% this still means $1 billion per year in interest payments alone. Now look at the revenue side, using your figure of around 400,000 passengers per year, tickets would be costed at $2500 just to pay the interest, let alone any other operating costs. Compare $2500 to the cost of an airline ticket.... Viable?
Of course the stimulus package can be compared to the World Cup bid; both are large projects undertaken by federal government at taxoayer's expense and both are optional. The Rudd/Gillard government certainly had a choice on whether the stimulus package was needed. There were cases of some citizens trying to stop the economic stimulus package going ahead on legal grounds.

The very fact that you didn't have anything to say that our federal government was/has spent 47 billion dollars of your precious taxpayer money (possibly unnecessarily) and you are so ardently against the possibility of our government spending 1/10th of that amount i 12 years time confirms that you are only against it because of your personal dislike of football.

In regards to HSR costings, I don't know what study you read but what I do know is MAGLEV technology costs $70 million / km to manufacture and that technology is easily 10 times more expensive then conventional HSR technology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev_(transport)

The current Melbourne to Sydney train line is 963km in length; much of this line follows steam gauge era hill contours and would be replaced with a straighter section of track. 400,000 passengers a year at a conservative price of $180 return (economy) plus 900 odd kms of track @ $7 million dollars per km. Multiply the revenue over a 50 year service life and it is more then financially viable with a combination of government /private investment. And that's where the problem lies - it will be a cold day in hell before you can get the Vic/ACT/federal governments and a private investor to agree on the project, even though it is clearly feasible.
 
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#35
Of course the stimulus package can be compared to the World Cup bid; both are large projects undertaken by federal government at taxoayer's expense and both are optional. The Rudd/Gillard government certainly had a choice on whether the stimulus package was needed. There were cases of some citizens trying to stop the economic stimulus package going ahead on legal grounds.

The very fact that you didn't have anything to say that our federal government was/has spent 47 billion dollars of your precious taxpayer money (possibly unnecessarily) and you are so ardently against the possibility of our government spending 1/10th of that amount i 12 years time confirms that you are only against it because of your personal dislike of football.

In regards to HSR costings, I don't know what study you read but what I do know is MAGLEV technology costs $70 million / km to manufacture and that technology is easily 10 times more expensive then conventional HSR technology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev_(transport)

The current Melbourne to Sydney train line is 963km in length; much of this line follows steam gauge era hill contours and would be replaced with a straighter section of track. 400,000 passengers a year at a conservative price of $180 return (economy) plus 900 odd kms of track @ $7 million dollars per km. Multiply the revenue over a 50 year service life and it is more then financially viable with a combination of government /private investment. And that's where the problem lies - it will be a cold day in hell before you can get the Vic/ACT/federal governments and a private investor to agree on the project, even though it is clearly feasible.
A substatial part of the stimulus package was 'refunds' to people with tax file numbers.

Are you fundamentally opposed to tax refunds ?
 

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#36
Oh dear, somebody cannot add up. Costs for a double VHST train line from Melbourne to Brisbane (1900kms of track) = 32 billion dollars (quoting your report written back in 2001). I don't know where you did mathematics but that works out to 17,777,777.77 for a double VHST railway line and $8,888,888.88 per km for VHST train track. Sorry, I was 1.7 million dollars per km out - much closer then your ridiculous $25 million per km estimate. And this is all on 2001 prices - VHST rail technology would have gone down markedly in price since it has become common worldwide.
 

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Zidane98

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#37
A substatial part of the stimulus package was 'refunds' to people with tax file numbers.

Are you fundamentally opposed to tax refunds ?
Initially I was skeptical about whether the stimulus package would work; of course it was all good that I got $900 to spend from it. These were not refunds, these were tax free gifts to all taxpayers to stimulate the Australian economy.

My point is it is quite ironic that you have many on here who are in histrionics about a possible World Cup in 12 years time when those who have protested so vehemently against our 2022 bid had nothing to say about the government spending $47 billion of our taxpayer's money. Quite clearly their concern about World Cup 2022 wasn't economic - that was a facade for there personal dislike of football itself and their apathy to a World Cup football competition being held in Australia during footy season.
 

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#38
Initially I was skeptical about whether the stimulus package would work; of course it was all good that I got $900 to spend from it. These were not refunds, these were tax free gifts to all taxpayers to stimulate the Australian economy.

My point is it is quite ironic that you have many on here who are in histrionics about a possible World Cup in 12 years time when those who have protested so vehemently against our 2022 bid had nothing to say about the government spending $47 billion of our taxpayer's money. Quite clearly their concern about World Cup 2022 wasn't economic - that was a facade for there personal dislike of football itself and their apathy to a World Cup football competition being held in Australia during footy season.
I'm not sure why you're going on about the Stimulus package so much.

However, like the WC bid, it had some obvious flaws. Over charging on school buildings - - sadly, because the school building program would otherwise be regarded as a national treasure.
The insulation installation had issues that blighted an otherwise reasonable idea. (should've been solar panels!!!!).

The WC bid, nice idea in some respects - some massive flaws - and over claiming benefits to the economy.

Personally I reckon all pensioners should get an annual 'stimulus' payment, but, that's another topic,......well, so I thought!?!?!?
 

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#40
Oh dear, somebody cannot add up. Costs for a double VHST train line from Melbourne to Brisbane (1900kms of track) = 32 billion dollars (quoting your report written back in 2001). I don't know where you did mathematics but that works out to 17,777,777.77 for a double VHST railway line and $8,888,888.88 per km for VHST train track. Sorry, I was 1.7 million dollars per km out - much closer then your ridiculous $25 million per km estimate. And this is all on 2001 prices - VHST rail technology would have gone down markedly in price since it has become common worldwide.
Not quite how it works. The substantial part of the cost is construction of the path the railway will take over the landscape. The faster speed you want the straighter and flatter the track will need to be to allow high speed running. This means lots of bridges, tunnels, viaducts, cuttings, embankments etc to make the smoothest possible line. The incremental cost in building a double instead of a single track is not a simple 2:1 ratio. It is not the cost of metres of track that is the issue, it is the civil engineering required to prepare the route for them to be laid.

Also, the 2001 report uses 2001 dollars, we should expect it would be a substantial amount more in 2010 dollars.
 

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#41
Not quite how it works. The substantial part of the cost is construction of the path the railway will take over the landscape. The faster speed you want the straighter and flatter the track will need to be to allow high speed running. This means lots of bridges, tunnels, viaducts, cuttings, embankments etc to make the smoothest possible line. The incremental cost in building a double instead of a single track is not a simple 2:1 ratio. It is not the cost of metres of track that is the issue, it is the civil engineering required to prepare the route for them to be laid.

Also, the 2001 report uses 2001 dollars, we should expect it would be a substantial amount more in 2010 dollars.
Technology goes down in cost markedly once it becomes mass market. USB memory sticks cost a fortune back in 2001 and cost next to nothing now. I would imagine with the widespread use of VHST now that manufacturing costs have reduced markedly since 9 years ago. If you can post me a 2010 costing I would be happy to be proven wrong.
 

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#42
Technology goes down in cost markedly once it becomes mass market. USB memory sticks cost a fortune back in 2001 and cost next to nothing now. I would imagine with the widespread use of VHST now that manufacturing costs have reduced markedly since 9 years ago. If you can post me a 2010 costing I would be happy to be proven wrong.
The technology doesn't account for the bulk of the costs.

Labour - I don't know how many jobs it would create, but the 2001 price estimated for employing people on this kind of project can convservatively doubled.

Materials - cost of most building materials have skyrocketed in the last 10 years, and will continue to rise by the time this kind of project gets off the ground.

Land acquisition - most land that needs to be acquired would have doubled or tripled in worth.

To be honest, I highly doubt the companies that designed and produce high speed tracks and trains would be selling their products for any cheaper in real terms anyway.

And this is all forgetting that the absolute earliest timeframe by which it would be approved and started on would be 2015-2020, which means you could possibly need to more than triple 2001 estimates.
 

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#44
Technology goes down in cost markedly once it becomes mass market. USB memory sticks cost a fortune back in 2001 and cost next to nothing now. I would imagine with the widespread use of VHST now that manufacturing costs have reduced markedly since 9 years ago. If you can post me a 2010 costing I would be happy to be proven wrong.
As I said, it is the civil engineering, bridges, tunnels, embankments, cuttings etc that make up the bulk of the cost, not the actual technology of putting the rails down or purchasing the rails to run on them. I don't think that part of it has got cheaper through mass production of the rolling stock. Plus with high speed rail you can have no level crossings, all road/rail crossings will need further bridges or tunnels for one to pass over the top of another. Bear in mind also that the $32 Billion estimate is the lower end of the range, the upper end of the range is $59 Billion, I note that you you have selected only the lower figure at the basis for your calculations


It is all academic anyway. If it ever gets done it will be done for reasons of reducing GHG emissions, it wont get off the ground because of the World Cup. We shall have to wait for the release the new report to see what costs they come up with in 2010 or 2011 dollars.
 

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#45
[YOUTUBE]Gl6v-niFa1M[/YOUTUBE]
Thank you Michael, just watched that video clip. Fast forward to around the 1:03 minute mark and the reporter quotes prices tripling in the last decade for an overall bill in excess of $100 Billion dollars now. Not sure where the ABC got that figure from, but I thought it worth a mention.
 

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#46
As I said, it is the civil engineering, bridges, tunnels, embankments, cuttings etc that make up the bulk of the cost, not the actual technology of putting the rails down or purchasing the rails to run on them. I don't think that part of it has got cheaper through mass production of the rolling stock. Plus with high speed rail you can have no level crossings, all road/rail crossings will need further bridges or tunnels for one to pass over the top of another. Bear in mind also that the $32 Billion estimate is the lower end of the range, the upper end of the range is $59 Billion, I note that you you have selected only the lower figure at the basis for your calculations


It is all academic anyway. If it ever gets done it will be done for reasons of reducing GHG emissions, it wont get off the ground because of the World Cup. We shall have to wait for the release the new report to see what costs they come up with in 2010 or 2011 dollars.
I agree with you in the sense that we do not need to build a VHST train solely for World Cup 2022 (if we succeed in bidding). What World Cup 2022 may do is kick start the project into life (assuming that it is viable, which I believe it will be in the future, we need to break the monopoly on long haul travel that the airlines have). Those figures are for the track only, I'd imagine after rolling stock/train stations etc etc that it would be closer to $100 billion.

Even if we don't get the World Cup I believe we will get one eventually in the future - World Cup 2022 will possibly speed up the process.
 

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west sydney
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GWS
#47
I agree with you in the sense that we do not need to build a VHST train solely for World Cup 2022 (if we succeed in bidding). What World Cup 2022 may do is kick start the project into life (assuming that it is viable, which I believe it will be in the future, we need to break the monopoly on long haul travel that the airlines have). Those figures are for the track only, I'd imagine after rolling stock/train stations etc etc that it would be closer to $100 billion.
It'd still be easier and cheaper than building secondary airports at various sites plus the voter backlash against airports turning up next to their houses, might just push high speed rail over the line as well. The world cup will kick start a massive array of projects for Australia's future and that's exactly what it should do. Otherwise these projects would just sit there gathering dust on someone's desk.
 
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