It's time to talk about Lachie...(Deadly from the pockets, Sprays it from everywhere else edition)

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Dogsbestfriend

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True... but I'd say that's more due to ability than desire.

Lachie gut runs and often provides a link option. He can absolutely clean his disposal up but wouldn't be among the major factors in our form slump IMO.
I don’t think anyone is saying that Hunter is the major problem.
Obviously he has a lot of natural ability which gets him off the hook when he is turning the ball over or missing gettable goals at crucial stages of games and on more occasions than others.
So I find it amusing that certain other players cop a hammering on here when overall if you weigh it up they haven’t impacted us as negatively as people think.
 

WallyStringhaus

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Probably going to get smashed for this but i'm going to post it anyway. The numbers below belong to every outside mid in the Comp who has had at least 35 Inside 50's this year. This total is for Goals and Goal Assists combined across the Home and Away season thus far;

29 - Shane Edwards
26 - Isaac Smith
20 - Paul Seedsman, Tom Phillips
19 - Scott Pendelbury, Jack Billings
18 - Andrew Gaff
15 - Tom Cutler, Gary Ablett, Angus Brayshaw, Jared Polec, Kieran Jack
14 - Zac Fisher, Ed Langdon
13 - Hugh McLuggage
12 - David Zaharakis, Zach Merrett, Adam Cerra, Josh Kelly, Ricky Henderson, Olly Florent, Chris Masten
11 - Rory Atkins, James Harmes, Jack Sinclair
10 - Luke McDonald
9 - Lachie Whitfield, Trent Dumont
8 - Mitch Duncan
6 - Paddy Dow, Shaun Grigg
5 - Lachie Hunter, Lachie Weller

Further to this Hunter managed 4 of these 5 in the first three weeks of the season, meaning he has managed just the one goal assist and zero goals in his last ten weeks of footy. I know there are a lot of posters who believe that Lachie plays his role well but given the numbers above should we be expecting more from a player in such a vital position? Look at the Rookies and 2nd year players who are proving more damaging already. Ed Richards has kicked 7 goals and had 2 assists (in the last three weeks!) since being given a more attacking role.

I really hope it is just a bit of a form slump and that he will turn it around because others will go past him in the pecking order if he doesn't clean up his ball use.
 

Next Waiting

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Probably going to get smashed for this but i'm going to post it anyway. The numbers below belong to every outside mid in the Comp who has had at least 35 Inside 50's this year. This total is for Goals and Goal Assists combined across the Home and Away season thus far;

29 - Shane Edwards
26 - Isaac Smith
20 - Paul Seedsman, Tom Phillips
19 - Scott Pendelbury, Jack Billings
18 - Andrew Gaff
15 - Tom Cutler, Gary Ablett, Angus Brayshaw, Jared Polec, Kieran Jack
14 - Zac Fisher, Ed Langdon
13 - Hugh McLuggage
12 - David Zaharakis, Zach Merrett, Adam Cerra, Josh Kelly, Ricky Henderson, Olly Florent, Chris Masten
11 - Rory Atkins, James Harmes, Jack Sinclair
10 - Luke McDonald
9 - Lachie Whitfield, Trent Dumont
8 - Mitch Duncan
6 - Paddy Dow, Shaun Grigg
5 - Lachie Hunter, Lachie Weller

Further to this Hunter managed 4 of these 5 in the first three weeks of the season, meaning he has managed just the one goal assist and zero goals in his last ten weeks of footy. I know there are a lot of posters who believe that Lachie plays his role well but given the numbers above should we be expecting more from a player in such a vital position? Look at the Rookies and 2nd year players who are proving more damaging already. Ed Richards has kicked 7 goals and had 2 assists (in the last three weeks!) since being given a more attacking role.

I really hope it is just a bit of a form slump and that he will turn it around because others will go past him in the pecking order if he doesn't clean up his ball use.
May well come under pressure to hold his senior spot next year. Midfielders generally who have not continued to improve and remain on the list are likely to be under pressure with the expected addition of two first or first round equivalent midfielders in the draft. That competition is good for the team but there will be casualties.

Hunter's tank is beyond question and his ability to be a link also. But will that be enough to hold out up and comers who can impact the scoreboard and kick incisively.

If there was room for only one and you had to choose between Hunter or Richards to play a game tomorrow, the choice seems obvious (it isn't Hunter). Schache appeals as high half forward who can roam the left wing and Macrae works out there too. Suckers. Dahl may go forward (mainly).

Fair to speculate that he'll come under selection pressure. Unlikely to come under list spot pressure (not that you suggested that).
 
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WallyStringhaus

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May well come under pressure to hold his senior spot next year. Midfielders generally who have not continued to improve and remain on the list are likely to be under pressure with the expected addition of two first or first round equivalent midfielders in the draft. That competition is good for the team but there will be casualties.

Hunter's tank is beyond question and his ability to be a link also. But will that be enough to hold out up and comers who can impact the scoreboard and kick incisively.

If there was room for only one and you had to choose between Hunter or Richards to play a game tomorrow, the choice seems obvious (it isn't Hunter). Schache appeals as high half forward who can roam the left wing and Macrae works out there too. Suckers. Dahl may go forward (mainly).

Fair to speculate that he'll come under selection pressure. Unlikely to come under list spot pressure (not that you suggested that).
This is exactly my thinking too. The progression of Ed and Lipinski has me concerned for his future beyond this season but healthy competition is vital.

Developing Dunks as an inside mid is obviously a priority. McLean is a bona fide midfielder now. Bont and Wally will spend time there. Macrae isnt far off returning. Lipinski, Richards and Williams are showing promising signs. Next year we add Liber, Dale, West and potentially a top 5 pick into the mix. Competition for spots should be pretty fierce.
 

True Dog

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With interchange numbers almost certain to drop players like Hunter who run both ways and cover the ground he does will become Gold.

He is what he is when it comes to disposal specially inside 50 but his footy smarts and running abilities will ensure he survives for some time, at least in our team.

The team is evolving and Hunter will continue to find a role to play IMO.
 

murphy's twin

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Looking at Telstra tracker, well at least the last two weeks anyways.. he has actually been playing as a half back flanker.

So maybe Bevo sees his best position as that HBF. For me he need to be better overhead to make that work long term.

When I put together the team going forward I do look to Lipinski and Richards for the all important Wong posies.
 

bullish23

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I don’t understand Hunter’s role in this team....

He is certainly no inside player. Gathers all his positions on the boundary line from sweeping handballs.

However he doesn’t have the pace nor the kicking penetration or accuracy to be an outside player.

Hopelessly inaccurate in front of goal as well.

If it was between him and Wallis I know who I would rather rely on.
 

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dogwatch

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I don’t understand Hunter’s role in this team....

He is certainly no inside player. Gathers all his positions on the boundary line from sweeping handballs.

However he doesn’t have the pace nor the kicking penetration or accuracy to be an outside player.

Hopelessly inaccurate in front of goal as well.

If it was between him and Wallis I know who I would rather rely on.
Wallis is a different player altogether but if you're talking about net value to the team I'd still take him ahead of Wallis. And if anything I've been a fan of Wallis over the journey and sceptical of Hunter.

I thought he was great value today against Norf and played with a level of maturity that you'd hope for from a 100-gamer. Not just for his 44 possessions but for constantly presenting which is what an outside player has to do. And mostly making good decisions.

Sure we'd all love him to have electrifying pace and a deadly accurate 50m bullet pass but then he'd be Patrick Dangerfield. He's not, but most of the time he did something constructive with the ball. Most of his 24 kicks today were to our benefit. (He is listed as having 72.7% DE, so that sort of confirms the eye test.) He knows his limitations and plays within them.

I also don't fully agree with those who are sick of him stopping and supposedly killing momentum. It may be true on some occasions but less often than is claimed on BF, I'd suggest. I think that often the blame should lie with the way we flood back leaving no targets up forward. As an outside player he is often the one who emerges with the ball after a stoppage or a turnover. He looks up and sees what we can't see on TV - nobody in front of him. Or he sees 2-3 opponents on our only player forward of the ball. If he bangs it forward he's labelled dumb because he kicked to a 2-on-1 or straight to an opponent, and they waltz it down the other end for an easy goal. So he does the sensible thing and that is to wait for an option or else he kicks it sideways/backwards and then goes himself and creates the extra option. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I also love how he runs all day. Today's 44 possessions was his reward for industriousness.
 

Next Waiting

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Wallis is a different player altogether but if you're talking about net value to the team I'd still take him ahead of Wallis. And if anything I've been a fan of Wallis over the journey and sceptical of Hunter.

I thought he was great value today against Norf and played with a level of maturity that you'd hope for from a 100-gamer. Not just for his 44 possessions but for constantly presenting which is what an outside player has to do. And mostly making good decisions.

Sure we'd all love him to have electrifying pace and a deadly accurate 50m bullet pass but then he'd be Patrick Dangerfield. He's not, but most of the time he did something constructive with the ball. Most of his 24 kicks today were to our benefit. (He is listed as having 72.7% DE, so that sort of confirms the eye test.) He knows his limitations and plays within them.

I also don't fully agree with those who are sick of him stopping and supposedly killing momentum. It may be true on some occasions but less often than is claimed on BF, I'd suggest. I think that often the blame should lie with the way we flood back leaving no targets up forward. As an outside player he is often the one who emerges with the ball after a stoppage or a turnover. He looks up and sees what we can't see on TV - nobody in front of him. Or he sees 2-3 opponents on our only player forward of the ball. If he bangs it forward he's labelled dumb because he kicked to a 2-on-1 or straight to an opponent, and they waltz it down the other end for an easy goal. So he does the sensible thing and that is to wait for an option or else he kicks it sideways/backwards and then goes himself and creates the extra option. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I also love how he runs all day. Today's 44 possessions was his reward for industriousness.
I've been critical of him, especially for not developing a right foot (and Daniel, despite his relatively good game also cops one here for not using his left today and turning it over on several occasions because of it - stern look). But there is no disputing his (Hunter's) tank and his willingness to use it for the collective good.

He doesn't hurt the opposition directly by impacting the scoreboard himself or even goal assisting. But he does hurt them in a sense by being omnipresent through gut running and providing his team mates with an out and opportunity to retain possession. And if you're retaining possession you're not turning it over and not being scored against.
 

ThirdLegUp

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Was lucky he only got a stinger today with that piss weak tackle on Goldie that could have put his shoulder out, or buckle his elbow.

When you attack a giant like goldie you do not stop and prop, a big man like that doesn't need momentum to hurt you when you are half his size and standing still. He should have used his momentum to latch on to him ala Libba snr, hugging a tree trunk, and allow his own body weight to put goldie off balance and topple like the clumsy giant that he is. Big men hurt themselves hitting the ground worse then you can with the actual impact.

Was very relieved when he came back out and was ok, because his reaction suggested a lot worse and had me cursing blue murder after already losing cordy.
 

TiAn_

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I've been critical of him, especially for not developing a right foot (and Daniel, despite his relatively good game also cops one here for not using his left today and turning it over on several occasions because of it - stern look). But there is no disputing his (Hunter's) tank and his willingness to use it for the collective good.

He doesn't hurt the opposition directly by impacting the scoreboard himself or even goal assisting. But he does hurt them in a sense by being omnipresent through gut running and providing his team mates with an out and opportunity to retain possession. And if you're retaining possession you're not turning it over and not being scored against.
He works incredibly hard both ways. I wish all our players worked as hard he does.

That being said, unless he’s hitting the scoreboard himself, he frequently has a net negative effect for us. Horrendous disposal, curious decision maker and so one-sided that he has to stop and turn when he gets the ball on the right side of the ground.

Hard to have him, Dahl and Honeychurch in the same team.

I didn’t enjoy his game today at all (as much as I still appreciated his effort), but I watched the second half from ground level so may have missed things in the second half.
 

Next Waiting

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He works incredibly hard both ways. I wish all our players worked as hard he does.

That being said, unless he’s hitting the scoreboard himself, he frequently has a net negative effect for us. Horrendous disposal, curious decision maker and so one-sided that he has to stop and turn when he gets the ball on the right side of the ground.

Hard to have him, Dahl and Honeychurch in the same team.

I didn’t enjoy his game today at all (as much as I still appreciated his effort), but I watched the second half from ground level so may have missed things in the second half.
That lack of penetration and one sidedness makes him vulnerable to someone with a similar tank who can do those things. That person is Richards if they choose to play him in that role but he has a ways to go on his tank before he reaches Lachie's standards in that regard. I think he's safely in the 22 at this stage and not going anywhere but, if nothing else, I'd like to see him build a right boot. He'd be super dangerous.
 

WallyStringhaus

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Wallis is a different player altogether but if you're talking about net value to the team I'd still take him ahead of Wallis. And if anything I've been a fan of Wallis over the journey and sceptical of Hunter.

I thought he was great value today against Norf and played with a level of maturity that you'd hope for from a 100-gamer. Not just for his 44 possessions but for constantly presenting which is what an outside player has to do. And mostly making good decisions.

Sure we'd all love him to have electrifying pace and a deadly accurate 50m bullet pass but then he'd be Patrick Dangerfield. He's not, but most of the time he did something constructive with the ball. Most of his 24 kicks today were to our benefit. (He is listed as having 72.7% DE, so that sort of confirms the eye test.) He knows his limitations and plays within them.

I also don't fully agree with those who are sick of him stopping and supposedly killing momentum. It may be true on some occasions but less often than is claimed on BF, I'd suggest. I think that often the blame should lie with the way we flood back leaving no targets up forward. As an outside player he is often the one who emerges with the ball after a stoppage or a turnover. He looks up and sees what we can't see on TV - nobody in front of him. Or he sees 2-3 opponents on our only player forward of the ball. If he bangs it forward he's labelled dumb because he kicked to a 2-on-1 or straight to an opponent, and they waltz it down the other end for an easy goal. So he does the sensible thing and that is to wait for an option or else he kicks it sideways/backwards and then goes himself and creates the extra option. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I also love how he runs all day. Today's 44 possessions was his reward for industriousness.
I'm not expecting him to be Dangerfield but I am expecting him to be the best version of himself. I found it a bit unfair that Wally and Dunks were both dropped and pubicly had the quality of their ball use questioned when to me, Hunter was just as guilty (if not more so).

I want Lach to return to the damaging outside mid he was in 2016/early 2017 as I feel its vital towards us winning games of footy.

2016: 10 goals, 16 assists (7 in finals)
2017: 18 goals, 6 assists
2018: 7 goals, 3 assists

Wallis in 2018 - 18 goals, 11 assists (team high)

Dunks - 9 goals, 4 assists
 

dogwatch

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I'm not expecting him to be Dangerfield but I am expecting him to be the best version of himself. I found it a bit unfair that Wally and Dunks were both dropped and pubicly had the quality of their ball use questioned when to me, Hunter was just as guilty (if not more so).

I want Lach to return to the damaging outside mid he was in 2016/early 2017 as I feel its vital towards us winning games of footy.

2016: 10 goals, 16 assists (7 in finals)
2017: 18 goals, 6 assists
2018: 7 goals, 3 assists

Wallis in 2018 - 18 goals, 11 assists (team high)

Dunks - 9 goals, 4 assists
I think you'll find he's played a bit further up the ground all year this year. Last year Bev had him playing as a loose forward for a lot of the time in the first three or four rounds. He had kicked 7 goals after 3 rounds. In fact I think he led our goalkicking for a while. Then - perhaps after the surprise element was gone - he got switched back to the wing and his goal production dropped accordingly.

Another thing to take into account is that in 2016 we averaged nearly 12.5 goals a game. In 2017 we averaged 11.8 goals a game. So far this year we average 10 goals a game exactly. So if you factor that in, he is perhaps slightly ahead of his goalkicking for 2016 and not a long way behind his goalkicking pace for 2017 ... after Rd 3.

Also bear in mind that last year he kicked 18.9 whereas this year he has kicked 7.10. So yes his goalkicking is down but he's not that much less prolific in scoring shots. The whole damned side has been inaccurate this year, not just Lachie.

The only apparent standout goal stat for me is the 16 assists in 2016 but that was from 26 games when we kicked 25% more goals. Pro rate them to our 2018 goalscoring and his games played and he would have 9.4 GAs to this point instead of the 4 he currently has (he had another one today). For me that's too small a margin to hang a case on, especially if his role and the team structure might have also changed in that time. (I don't know that it has, but it's quite possible.)

This year he leads us in marks and disposals (not bad considering he's up against Macrae) and is on the same pace as 2016 for goals. It's not unfair to challenge him to do more and perhaps learn new skills (like kick both feet) but I feel he has more than earned his keep. Sometimes you've just got to work to a player's strengths.

I'm pleased to say that we now seem to be doing that with all three of Hunter, Wallis and Dunkley.
 

dogwatch

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Was critical of him last year and early this year because he was ordinary. Am a big fan now because he’s upped his game. I used to s**t myself when he had the ball in hand, now I feel confident. Pretty simple.


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It's a good test. A bit like the way people talk about the "eye test".

We are all very nervous when Jong or Honeychurch get the pill but much more relaxed when it's someone like Bont. I used to get the same feeling when Picken had it. Or Murphy.

Can't say I'm quite there with Hunter yet but he's getting better.
 

WallyStringhaus

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I think you'll find he's played a bit further up the ground all year this year. Last year Bev had him playing as a loose forward for a lot of the time in the first three or four rounds. He had kicked 7 goals after 3 rounds. In fact I think he led our goalkicking for a while. Then - perhaps after the surprise element was gone - he got switched back to the wing and his goal production dropped accordingly.

Another thing to take into account is that in 2016 we averaged nearly 12.5 goals a game. In 2017 we averaged 11.8 goals a game. So far this year we average 10 goals a game exactly. So if you factor that in, he is perhaps slightly ahead of his goalkicking for 2016 and not a long way behind his goalkicking pace for 2017 ... after Rd 3.

Also bear in mind that last year he kicked 18.9 whereas this year he has kicked 7.10. So yes his goalkicking is down but he's not that much less prolific in scoring shots. The whole damned side has been inaccurate this year, not just Lachie.

The only apparent standout goal stat for me is the 16 assists in 2016 but that was from 26 games when we kicked 25% more goals. Pro rate them to our 2018 goalscoring and his games played and he would have 9.4 GAs to this point instead of the 4 he currently has (he had another one today). For me that's too small a margin to hang a case on, especially if his role and the team structure might have also changed in that time. (I don't know that it has, but it's quite possible.)

This year he leads us in marks and disposals (not bad considering he's up against Macrae) and is on the same pace as 2016 for goals. It's not unfair to challenge him to do more and perhaps learn new skills (like kick both feet) but I feel he has more than earned his keep. Sometimes you've just got to work to a player's strengths.

I'm pleased to say that we now seem to be doing that with all three of Hunter, Wallis and Dunkley.
Might have to agree to disagree on this one mate. I reckon going from 27 scoring shots to 17 is a significant drop off...especially when you consider that he leads our total uncontested possession count by 50, is 4th for inside 50s and (most damning of all) 3rd for Marks inside 50.
 

Dogs_R_Us

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Astounded at some of these comments. I would go so far as to say he is one of the most important cogs in our wheel. Smart, doesn't panic, gets to the right spots, vital link man. The other players know they can rely on him. When he was out - suspended (?) - and we lost the next week, I commented at the time that we needed him back pronto.
 

dogwatch

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Might have to agree to disagree on this one mate. I reckon going from 27 scoring shots to 17 is a significant drop off...especially when you consider that he leads our total uncontested possession count by 50, is 4th for inside 50s and (most damning of all) 3rd for Marks inside 50.
Wow, third for M50s? I think that's actually really good!

I'm serious. We now just need to work out why that's not showing up on the scoreboard. Is he kicking heaps of them OOTF? Is he trying dinky little passes? (And how many of those are effective?)
We might yet argue ourselves into unlikely agreement on this one.

And I know this may be nitpicking and even tenuous, but ... with the 27 shots to 17 thing:

That's 27 scoring shots from 22 games or just under 1.23 per game.
The 17 shots is from 19 games or 0.89 per game.

Now I think there's a case to argue that because we were more productive as a team in 2017 we should adjust our expectations of the players who do the scoring (or provide GAs) accordingly. You might not agree with my logic but let's see how it affects things.

In 2017 we had 557 scoring shots in 22 games (avge 25.3) compared to 414 shots so far in 20 games this year (avge 20.7). So I suggest we downgrade his 1.23/game by the same ratio. That comes out at 1.00/game. That's not so very different to his 2018 scoring shots (0.89), especially if you take into account the time he played up forward in early 2017. Given our 2018 form I expect most other players are well down on 2016 & 2017 numbers as well, and many of them by more than Lachie, so I see no need for a special focus on him.

Bottom line for me: he's going OK. And yes, I'm happy to disagree with you on this one.
 
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