Delisted Jack Martin [Selected by Carlton in the PSD]

Jun 14, 2014
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Mate, what are you on? Just because a player went between picks 1-10, doesn't mean he can't be steak knives.

- Jack Watts
- Cale Morton
- Jimmy Toumpas
- Lucas Cook
- Jack Trengove

Just to name a few....
It should be noted that only a couple years before Trengove was delisted and went to Port Adelaide as a twenty-six year old delisted free agent with foot issues, he actually attracted interest from Richmond at the same age as Martin, and a deal had almost been reached for Richmond's Pick 12 in return for Jack Trengove and Melbourne's Pick 23. The only thing that stopped that trade from going through was the medical report (basically, Trengove's ongoing foot issue was a deal breaker for Richmond).

ref 1: https://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-10-10/trengove-linked-to-tigers
ref 2: https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/m...d/news-story/c36c22a8480302cfcf1a6ba215576c7c

Basically, I agree that former high draft picks can end up as steak knives, but there's surely mitigating circumstances in those instances (like ongoing injury, inability to get regular games, or the age of the player) that makes the above list of players not really comparable to Jack Martin's situation. Lucas Cook, for example, had never played a single senior level game while he was on the Demon's list. Jimmy Toumpas struggled to establish himself as a regular senior player in the three seasons he was at the Demons, playing fourteen games in his first year, four games in his second year, and nine games in his third year for a total of 27 games with the Dees during his tenure there. Toumpas managed to play 10 more games for Port Adelaide in the two years he was on their list. Cale Morton was a regular for the Demons, but he managed only three games at West Coast before being delisted. Compare this to Martin who played 44 games in his first three years with the Suns, and has since increased this to 97 games over his career to date.

Jack Trengove and Jack Watts are probably the most comparable in value to Jack Martin, but they were both traded to Port Adelaide at 26 years of age... but given we have a reference for Trengove's trade value before his injury and at the same age as Martin is now, that's probably a good indicator of Martin's worth.

Trengove's apparent trade value at 24 without injury: Pick 12 with Pick 23 coming back.

That's why I think Carlton's offer was understandably seen as unders by the Suns. Pick 9 and a future second rounder for Jack Martin and Pick 15 was pretty reasonable by the Suns given that precedent.
 
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gcsunsfc

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Correct, as confirmed by Craig Cameron in an interview after the conclusion of trade week.

Pick 9 in 2019 + 2020 second round

for pick 11 in 2020 + Jack Martin

Seems like a fair deal to me that the Suns tabled but SOS turned down.


Goes to show for the Suns it just wasn't about 'the points' as this would be equivalent to far fewer points - it was about what was valuable for us considering our position with future picks, players, contracts, list positions etc..
 

Stamos

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Mar 30, 2010
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Pick 9 in 2019 + 2020 second round

for pick 11 in 2020 + Jack Martin

Seems like a fair deal to me that the Suns tabled but SOS turned down.


Goes to show for the Suns it just wasn't about 'the points' as this would be equivalent to far fewer points - it was about what was valuable for us considering our position with future picks, players, contracts, list positions etc..

After reneging, Suns obviously wanted #9, but Martin is not worth compromising a top 10 pick over.
 

Skull Face

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Aug 27, 2019
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Pick 9 in 2019 + 2020 second round

for pick 11 in 2020 + Jack Martin

Seems like a fair deal to me that the Suns tabled but SOS turned down.


Goes to show for the Suns it just wasn't about 'the points' as this would be equivalent to far fewer points - it was about what was valuable for us considering our position with future picks, players, contracts, list positions etc..
What will pick 11 next year end up being though? Closer to 20 i'd imagine for a club without f/s, academy selections.

They might have done this if they weren't holding out for Papley until the final minutes which took 9 off the table all together.
 
Jul 25, 2019
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Have to wonder what would have The Suns have settled for if Carlton got the Papley deal over the Line (although there was talking of splitting pick 9)

Anyhow respect the Suns position, but still think SOS was right to stand his ground.

Makes no sense to pay overs for an uncontracted player who has a very strong chance to get to us in the PSD.
 

gcsunsfc

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What will pick 11 next year end up being though? Closer to 20 i'd imagine for a club without f/s, academy selections.

They might have done this if they weren't holding out for Papley until the final minutes which took 9 off the table all together.
Oh so now the Carlton mob want to let us know about the academy picks next year.
seems to be a non issue when it was cartons future picks on the table.
 

Skull Face

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Oh so now the Carlton mob want to let us know about the academy picks next year.
seems to be a non issue when it was cartons future picks on the table.
We tried to get you a 2nd this year through the Papley trade which didn't happen, cry me a River.

Not like you guys would have taken it anyway, too many handouts.

Anyways as I said 9 would have been tied up in case Sydney backfliped.
 
Feb 6, 2016
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Pick 9 in 2019 + 2020 second round

for pick 11 in 2020 + Jack Martin

Seems like a fair deal to me that the Suns tabled but SOS turned down.


Goes to show for the Suns it just wasn't about 'the points' as this would be equivalent to far fewer points - it was about what was valuable for us considering our position with future picks, players, contracts, list positions etc..

So why bother at all with the first rounders? If this is the actual scenario surely 2020 2nd and 3rd get it done. Who do the Suns value so greatly at 2019 pick 9 that they trash a deal with an uncontracted player whos requested a trade for two years running?
 

gcsunsfc

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So why bother at all with the first rounders? If this is the actual scenario surely 2020 2nd and 3rd get it done. Who do the Suns value so greatly at 2019 pick 9 that they trash a deal with an uncontracted player whos requested a trade for two years running?
Obviously it suited our list makeup to have the pick this year.
I’m not the recruiters so I don’t know exactly why we wanted to do that deal. It may have been a particular player (jackson?) that we thought we could get at 9 but not 15.

May have had something to do with bringing more talent in now to try and convince fiorini and lukosius to re-sign.

I can’t tell you the exact motivation but I think it was a pretty fair deal we suggested that was denied.
 
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Interesting article in The Age this afternoon hinting Martin could potentially end up back at GC as Tony Cochrane is itching for a fight on this.
I hope Jack Martins management team are readying to take the AFL and GC to court for restraint of trade should this occur. Would open the can of worms the PA want I feel.

Scenario is currently this:

- The Employee gives 7 years of service to employer
- During this 7 years the employer doesn't develop employee to the best of their ability and as a result the employee requests to move to a new employer to better their career (as indicated by the employee publically)
- The Employee has indicated that they have resigned and is not willing to continue their career with their current employer (i.e. not enter into a new contract)
- The Employee finishes their contract with the current employer and the current employer has not offered a new contract to employee - the terms of employment have been met.
- The Employee has indicated a request to work for a specific new company (as is their right under the law)
- The new nominated company under the fabricated rules of the AFL system has facilitated a fair and reasonable offer to the current employer during the Fabricated "Trade Period"
- The current employer has not accepted these terms due to no other reason but stubborness / AFL intervention with additional picks - I dare suggest other list managers/industry experts will be called on in the event of a court case to determine whether the offer for Martin was fair and reasonable under the circumstances and given media narrative most believe it was
- The current employer threatens to re-employee the employee against their wishes via the Pre Season Draft - even though all terms of their current employment contract have been met and the employee in a free market system wants to work elsewhere

If Jack Martins management aren't all over this right now and speaking to the AFL directly on this they aren't doing their job - most players, particularly those out of contract get to where they want to go. The Suns and by extension the AFL are playing a dangerous game with Jack Martins career right now and I hope TLA and their team are looking after their clients and threatening to walk everyone from that made up football club up there.
 
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Jan 19, 2008
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Happy to bookmark this for discussion in a couple of years.

I think I am fair when assessing lists. Current results of any side aren't an indication of where a list is heading

I don't disagree, I don't know enough about the Carlton list to comment. From the outside same old same old with one guy dragging you over the line at times.

That doesn't mean things won't change in the future.
 

Peel67skin

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Pick 9 for pick 15 + Martin= Martin is not worth first round pick
Pick 9 for future pick 11 + Martin = Martin i is still not worth first round pick.
Can't even do mathematics properly.
 

Happy Idiot

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Interesting article in The Age this afternoon hinting Martin could potentially end up back at GC as Tony Cochrane is itching for a fight on this.
I hope Jack Martins management team are readying to take the AFL and GC to court for restraint of trade should this occur. Would open the can of worms the PA want I feel.

Scenario is currently this:

- The Employee gives 7 years of service to employer
- During this 7 years the employer doesn't develop employee to the best of their ability and as a result the employee requests to move to a new employer to better their career (as indicated by the employee publically)
- The Employee has indicated that they have resigned and is not willing to continue their career with their current employer (i.e. not enter into a new contract)
- The Employee finishes their contract with the current employer and the current employer has not offered a new contract to employee - the terms of employment have been met.
- The Employee has indicated a request to work for a specific new company (as is their right under the law)
- The new nominated company under the fabricated rules of the AFL system has facilitated a fair and reasonable offer to the current employer during the Fabricated "Trade Period"
- The current employer has not accepted these terms due to no other reason but stubborness / AFL intervention with additional picks - I dare suggest other list managers/industry experts will be called on in the event of a court case to determine whether the offer for Martin was fair and reasonable under the circumstances and given media narrative most believe it was
- The current employer threatens to re-employee the employee against their wishes via the Pre Season Draft - even though all terms of their current employment contract have been met and the employee in a free market system wants to work elsewhere

If Jack Martins management aren't all over this right now and speaking to the AFL directly on this they aren't doing their job - most players, particularly those out of contract get to where they want to go. The Suns and by extension the AFL are playing a dangerous game with Jack Martins career right now and I hope TLA and their team are looking after their clients and threatening to walk everyone from that made up football club up there.
Great. Except that the AFL and player movement is not analogous to more accepted standards in workplaces.

Edit: Should have worked harder to get the trade done.
 
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