Jack will come back & bite us

[jenny61_99]

Well it was sort of tongue in cheek. But logic says if other teams want our players, then we can't have done too bad a job because we recruited them.

As for either Davis or Gunston being "10 year players" - boy that's a big call. Isn't the average time played around 5 seasons or less? Injuries put paid to many a 10 year dream.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Well it was sort of tongue in cheek. But logic says if other teams want our players, then we can't have done too bad a job because we recruited them.

Unless they're the exception rather than the rule with our recruiting. In which case we're double screwed.

Time will tell. I have to say I dont think that we're so far above the norm with recruiting that we can afford to lose guns.

As for either Davis or Gunston being "10 year players" - boy that's a big call. Isn't the average time played around 5 seasons or less? Injuries put paid to many a 10 year dream.

I think you're being a little pedantic on this. I expect you'll email Matty Rendell every time he says 10 year player about one of our draft picks.

I dont think its unreasonable to use the term for either Davis or Gunston. They should both have very good AFL careers. Unfortunately.

 

[A FEW GOOD MEN]

Has a club ever lost two 10 year, first 22 talls in the one year? Neither of them of the club's choosing?

Has there even been the opportunity to "access" two uncontracted players in successive years?

Who have we "lost" over the last few years?

Bock was offered substantially more money than we would or could pay him. I also believe he wanted to leave Adelaide to "escape" the poor publicity that he had attracted (not to mention family issues).

Almost everyone had declared Sellar and Maric spuds and how many small defenders were in front of Armstrong. (Armstrong or Johncock?, Jaensch?, Brown? Kerridge? not to mention any more mature defenders)

Davis and Gunston really hurt us, regardless of the compensation received. I have already given my view on Gunston, I believe he had booked his ticket home the day he was drafted.

Davis really pisses me off. Does anyone seriously believe that he hadn't signed at the end of the 2010 season? It makes a lot more sense for GWS to offer him the big bucks prior to re-injuring his shoulder at the start of last season. He is a very smart lad and will end up having a very successful career after football. GWS played their cards beautifully, focussing all the media attention on Taylor Walker. Not only did they offer Phil heaps of $$$$$$ but also the opportunity to study at one of the best Universities in Australia and offered the access to contacts at the big end of town. His parents were leaving SA so there was little we could offer to match GWS.

I do think that we were naive to believe treating players with respect and drafting nice, well educated boys would ensure they would do the right thing. I personally feel a lot more confident about Sloane than Dangerfield.

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

Wow - Springy, there is some terrible rubbish in that post.

I look forward to reading about these sides who trained less than the Crows and had great success. And all these successful sides that pushed up unready juniors. And recruited morons.

Just because we didn't see ultimate success with Craig doesn't mean doing the opposite WOULD have brought us success. It could have been greater failure.

That being said, we agree (maybe) on one thing. The cold professionalism of the Crows actually made it easier for players to make the tough decision to leave. The paranoid "the world is out to get us" underdog status of Port would make them emotionally tough to leave.

I'm all for bringing some emotion into the team.

While one or two maybe from left field, all 4 points are relevant.

-Training - No doubt we are one of the hardest training outfits in the competition. Remember in the lead up to the 2006 finals, senior players calling for an easing of the training load. Remember NC wanting to "push the limits" in the 2010 pre-season?? If you were a young player would you want to be flogged on the training track every week when the rewatd is zero.

-No denying that during the NC area, we were not the type of team to fly the flag or get involved in melees. Even the most pro-AFC supporter on this board wouldn't deny this. As I said, these are the types of actions that unite a playing group.

-Too long in the SANFL- No denying this one.

-Type of player we recruit. If all the above are not relevant, then it has to be the type of person we recruit. Maybe instead of recruiting intelligent "people of character" we instead recruit the kid who is studying for a phd in cooking Big Macs and may not be aware of the opportunities available to him..

 

[FR0GGY]

I expressed concern when Jack was drafted, the son of a multi-millionaire and Essendon Board member. Money was never an issue in Jack's career path. He attended an exclusive all boys college for the would be rich and famous. Sending poor Jack to the doggies to complete his education must have been a great shock to both him and his family. Whilst many expected that he might ask to be traded to Essendon, was Hawthorn (the Eastern Suburbs blue blood club) such a surprise?

He played us like a Stradavarius, indicating he was poised to sign a new contract right up to the time that he jumped on the plane to Melbourne.

The whole episode says a lot more about the Gunston culture than the Crow's culture IMHO.

If you could see it happening why couldn't the crows? Maybe we need to review the type of people we recruit.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Has there even been the opportunity to "access" two uncontracted players in successive years?

How does the current GC/GWS situation affect the Gunston situation?

Ok, of course it impacts Davis. But all clubs are running the same risks. Why did we get stung? Why did Melbourne, Bulldogs and Adelaide all lose future captains? All three clubs finished out of finals, sacked their coaches during the season and appeared a rabble.

Who have we "lost" over the last few years?

Bock was offered substantially more money than we would or could pay him. I also believe he wanted to leave Adelaide to "escape" the poor publicity that he had attracted (not to mention family issues).

Almost everyone had declared Sellar and Maric spuds and how many small defenders were in front of Armstrong. (Armstrong or Johncock?, Jaensch?, Brown? Kerridge? not to mention any more mature defenders)

I thought it was pretty obvious the two players I was referring to. Nice work adding this guff to pad out an argument.

Davis and Gunston really hurt us, regardless of the compensation received. I have already given my view on Gunston, I believe he had booked his ticket home the day he was drafted.

You've pointed out more than a few times that you were bang on the money with your go home prediction for Gunston. Purely for interests sake, given "Join Date: April 2010" are you able to just point out where you predicted this, prior to the news broke that he was going home?

Davis really pisses me off. Does anyone seriously believe that he hadn't signed at the end of the 2010 season? It makes a lot more sense for GWS to offer him the big bucks prior to re-injuring his shoulder at the start of last season. He is a very smart lad and will end up having a very successful career after football. GWS played their cards beautifully, focussing all the media attention on Taylor Walker. Not only did they offer Phil heaps of $$$$$$ but also the opportunity to study at one of the best Universities in Australia and offered the access to contacts at the big end of town. His parents were leaving SA so there was little we could offer to match GWS.

I actually reckon GWS struggled to attract decent players so had to settle for an injured Davis - encouraged to sign, perhaps motivated by fears of his longevity. Also plucked an average Rhys Palmer who has had a knee reco, delivered a dump truck of money for Tom Scully. Most clubs have guarded their blue chips well - I'll be interested to see what Hurley and Pendlebury do. I'd be surprised if they leave.

I do think that we were naive to believe treating players with respect and drafting nice, well educated boys would ensure they would do the right thing. I personally feel a lot more confident about Sloane than Dangerfield.

I feel more confident given the changes that have occurred at our club in the last 6 months. The way we were travelling I can't imagine we'd have been a particularly attractive proposition for a young, up and coming interstater to commit to long term.

I think the mistake we made was thinking that we had our most talented list ever and that we would be pushing into the Top 4 in 2010. The club thought they were entering a new era of success, spearheaded by a fresh young group of players, and this success would keep these players together. Who wouldn't want to stick around? And who cares about GC/GWS? When you're winning the dollars don't matter so much.

We didn't foresee the reality, that we would struggle after losing our champions and would only have a handful of players with market value. The onus should have been on retaining these few players given that we had so few assets (as Port has done). We took it for granted that they would want to stay to be part of the New Crows.

 

[jenny61_99]

Carl, Davis certainly had an in-principle contract with GWS at the beginning of last year (actually, it was more likely in the previous end of year draft period). Their recruiters were using his name as a "we've already got so and so on board" in March last year.

But I agree with your last paragraph 100%.

 

[ftmch]

Ok, of course it impacts Davis. But all clubs are running the same risks. Why did we get stung? Why did Melbourne, Bulldogs and Adelaide all lose future captains? All three clubs finished out of finals, sacked their coaches during the season and appeared a rabble.

Davis was one of those targeted not because the AFC was a 'soft' target, but because he is going to be a future AA CHB.

Given his background, skill set, marketability, leadership potential etc, he would have been targeted irrespective of which club he played for.

And the greedy little shit would have taken the cash grab regardless of which club he was playing for also.

'Culture' was not a factor imo.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Davis was one of those targeted not because the AFC was a 'soft' target, but because he is going to be a future AA CHB.

Given his background, skill set, marketability, leadership potential etc, he would have been targeted irrespective of which club he played for.

And the greedy little shit would have taken the cash grab regardless of which club he was playing for also.

'Culture' was not a factor imo.

What?

So Davis was higher up GWS's hit list than Selwood, Murphy, Pendlebury...?

The 'culture' word is getting overused in this thread anyway.

What I'm questioning whether our professionalism, off-field structure and ability to generate future success is what was lacking.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Maybe instead of recruiting intelligent "people of character" we instead recruit the kid who is studying for a phd in cooking Big Macs and may not be aware of the opportunities available to him..

This is a lot more Salient than it sounds.

And Kristof, kudos for being able to breathe with your head in the sand for this long.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Carl, Davis certainly had an in-principle contract with GWS at the beginning of last year (actually, it was more likely in the previous end of year draft period). Their recruiters were using his name as a "we've already got so and so on board" in March last year.

Yea, I'm not sure I believe that. (but of course I don't know either way)

I know they say that they've got players already on board, but of course they can't release their names...

There is a benefit to them in giving the impression that they already have a stable of stars in the hutch, whether they do or don't.

"We haven't signed anyone yet" - if anyone hears that then there's no way they'll sign up.

If they had their act together and had nailed all the top notch signings they wanted, then Rhys Palmer is not at their club. I reckon they struggled big time. Clubs were forewarned by the GC experience.

 

[jenny61_99]

Fatoomsch, you can't blame players for considering their future opportunities. Most of us at his age would almost certainly do the same thing if offered a substantial increase in pay and the captaincy. Let's face it, he wasn't going to get those dollars in the job he had (at Adelaide) and he was down a few rungs on the leadership ladder (behind VB, Thompson, Rutten, Sloane and Danger). I know I've done it too, but I don't think it's fair to call him greedy. He really is just setting himself up for his future. It's what most of us do in our lives (change jobs for better $$$ or opportunities), why should footy players be any different?

 

[jenny61_99]

Yea, I'm not sure I believe that. (but of course I don't know either way)

I know they say that they've got players already on board, but of course they can't release their names...

There is a benefit to them in giving the impression that they already have a stable of stars in the hutch, whether they do or don't.

"We haven't signed anyone yet" - if anyone hears that then there's no way they'll sign up.

If they had their act together and had nailed all the top notch signings they wanted, then Rhys Palmer is not at their club. I reckon they struggled big time. Clubs were forewarned by the GC experience.

My source was a player who GWS was also after. Sheeds called him and dropped the names of players that had already agreed to come on board. Davis was one and this was very early on in the year.

I agree with you that they struggled. This player I'm talking about was offered an absolute shit load on two different contracts, one for three years, one for two. He ended up going somewhere else.

 

[jackster83]

Fatoomsch, you can't blame players for considering their future opportunities. Most of us at his age would almost certainly do the same thing if offered a substantial increase in pay and the captaincy. Let's face it, he wasn't going to get those dollars in the job he had (at Adelaide) and he was down a few rungs on the leadership ladder (behind VB, Thompson, Rutten, Sloane and Danger). I know I've done it too, but I don't think it's fair to call him greedy. He really is just setting himself up for his future. It's what most of us do in our lives (change jobs for better $$$ or opportunities), why should footy players be any different?

Nah, it's greed.

We're not talking about a truck driver leaving a $40k job here to go work up in the mines for $110k. He would have been very well looked after (rumours are around the 450k mark) plus plenty of media/business opportunities here. He could have easily set himself up in one of our nicer beachside suburbs. If you can't set yourself up on what the PM earns, then you need to lay off the cocaine.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Nah, it's greed.

Rubbish.

 

[jenny61_99]

Nah, it's greed.

We're not talking about a truck driver leaving a $40k job here to go work up in the mines for $110k. He would have been very well looked after (rumours are around the 450k mark) plus plenty of media/business opportunities here. He could have easily set himself up in one of our nicer beachside suburbs. If you can't set yourself up on what the PM earns, then you need to lay off the cocaine.

I doubt VERY much that he was on $450k here.

 

[Mad Fan of AFL]

Very little love for Armstrong. I must be the only poster that thinks he will be decent. Armstrong wont be a superstar, but he will be a solid player for Sydney. Sydney has the ability to make a average player into a good player. I think Tony will do well.

In regards to Maric, i have no idea if he will improve Richmond. As fans we all know what to expect with Maric and what his strengths are. Jenkins is an equal replacement for him in my view.

Gunston and Davis are the obvious ones that will hurt us. Davis's shoulder and his durability, concerns me though.

 

[Wood_Duck]

Not greed in my opinion either. I actually think he would have been insane not to take it. You are only a football star for a finite time of your life. When you finish playing football you are still going to be a comparatively young person. Why wouldn't you milk the next 5 or so years of your football career to set your life up for the next 50.

 

[cmndstab]

Davis in particular would have been crazy not to take it - with the way his shoulder popped out so easily last time he played, it could have been that he would never play another match of AFL again. Locking away 7 figures literally sets him up for life - he can live on interest indefinitely.


His decision to leave and Gunston's were poles apart.

 

[WALL-e]

Beat me to it Stabby.

You're right Wood Duck, this guy was once shoulder injury from no more footy. We weren't going to offer him a five year deal with 750 a year. That's guaranteed cash. As Stabby said, he can live off the growth if properly invested and by all reports he's retty bright.

Nothing like Gunna, still stings thought.

 

[Slippery Pete]

As Stabby said, he can live off the growth if properly invested and by all reports he's retty bright.

Can you do some sums and give us a quick overview? Let's just say he stops playing after this contract is up. What kind of position would he be in......

(Don't charge me for this.....)

 

[Wood_Duck]

As Stabby said, he can live off the growth if properly invested and by all reports he's retty bright.

Can you do some sums and give us a quick overview? Let's just say he stops playing after this contract is up. What kind of position would he be in......

(Don't charge me for this.....)

I doubt he will be in a position to never work again, but the first million is always the hardest to make.

 

[WALL-e]

Can you do some sums and give us a quick overview? Let's just say he stops playing after this contract is up. What kind of position would he be in......

(Don't charge me for this.....)

If you total his contract , it's likely a 3.75M deal.

Investing this amount in the most basic of products (a term deposit) would give him approximately $200K per annum before tax.

However if you addopted an investment strategy that was more aggressive, a long term average return could be more than double, say 12.5% per annum. Less fees and charges of 2.5% and CPI of apprx 3%, his returns before tax would be 7% ($262,500) per annum. After tax (on earnings) you're looking at 240K, however you have strategies such available with those funds to reduce your tax liability.

Also note that those funds will increase with CPI as his investment does so they're todays figures for the rest of his life.

But in reality, he will spend a fair chunk of the 3.75M on living expenses and a house. They're also not taking into account income tax. Say cost of living (inc rent) in Syd woud be $70K after tax, and he purchases a 1M property at the end of the contract.

$750K sal
tax of approx $150 (would have a ton of deductions and offsets)
Less living costs of $70K
$530 in pocket.

$2.65M (not including earnings up until the end of the contract, which over five years would be a sizable amount).

less 1M house

$1.65M would still give you $115,500 per annum to live off after tax, fees and costs. More than he was living off now, to go along with a house.

 

[macca23]

Can you do some sums and give us a quick overview? Let's just say he stops playing after this contract is up. What kind of position would he be in......

(Don't charge me for this.....)

If I remember rightly Pete, wasn't Davis studying to be a lawyer once he is finished with footy??

If so, don't even pass wind in front of him - he'll charge you for listening to it!!

With his GWS money, he'll probably set up his own practice and become filthy rich.

 

[A FEW GOOD MEN]

Rhys Palmer is another example of a player that there is every indication that he signed before the 2011 season. After a stellar first year in 2008 he did his knee in 2009. As expected he was a bit scratchy when he returned in the second half of 2010. It was expected that 2011 would be a breakout year but he had a shocker.

So, either

a) GWS recruiters are clueless

b) Palmer lost interest in the game last year or

c) GWS signed him at the end of 2010 and are now thinking it wasn't such a great idea