Confirmed Jake Carlisle [traded w/ #23 and #44 for #5, #24 and Craig Bird]

Status
Not open for further replies.

LukeParkerno1

Make me an Admin!
Joined
Sep 23, 2005
Posts
91,781
Likes
33,137
Location
Sydney
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Sydney Swans
We'll take their 1st pick
Around the correct value too, approximately pick 13 or so, and that is pretty reasonable. Essendon could then go Curnow at 5 (if available, otherwise Parish) and another mid at pick 13. All of a sudden add those two to the Heppell, Laverde, etc and you have a better midfield.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

cdcanman

Premiership Player
Joined
Sep 25, 2013
Posts
3,099
Likes
3,607
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Chicago Bulls
I thought it would be pretty obvious, but here goes.

Clubs operate under a salary cap so players are paid according to their value to the club. If a player is paid 700k he is rated in the top 1% of the league. So he is worth a top 10 pick.

He most likely has 8 good years of Footy to go, and could instantly improve a team that has the capacity to do so. By that I mean if he goes to Carlton they are still rubbish. However, if he was to go to Footscray, Boyd was to get his shit together and Libba's knee comes good they've taken a young exciting team with dash and flair and then just added structure to front and back and have increased their clearances. Boom!

Not sure what the salary cap is there but Carlisle with their first pick and Kruezer as FA and doogies are close to premiership threat, IMHO.
Can't argue with your points about the Dogs. Carlisle and Kreuzer would be fantastic for them. They'd come at the perfect time too.

When it comes to your idea about player's value...
This part of your post; 'Clubs operate under a salary cap so players are paid according to their value to the club. If a player is paid 700k he is rated in the top 1% of the league', is fairly accurate (other than the percentage perhaps being an educated guess, but I'll allow you this). However the jump you make to this; 'So he is worth a top 10 pick', is what is clinically referred to as a leap in logic. You are inferring that, because of the first half of the sentence, the second half of the sentence must be true. Or in reality, my opinion on A provides enough evidence that my opinion on B is true. But really all we still have is your opinion. You haven't identified or proven any causal relationship between salary and trade value, other than to say I believe this, so therefore this must be true.
There is no actual correlation between a player's salary and what draft pick they should return via trade, other than the one you are making up yourself. There is no formula that governs this. You may believe that a player earning 700k should be (or as you have put, "is") worth a top 10 pick, but this is just your belief. Reality is a player is worth whatever a club is willing to part with to secure him, and whatever a club is willing to pay him. It doesn't have to make sense in comparison to previous trades or in comparison to what others are earning. You can't accurately assign a draft pick value to a player. Too simplistic
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Posts
36,022
Likes
21,374
Location
Narre Warren North
AFL Club
St Kilda
Other Teams
.
Exactly my point, Billings hasn't done anything yet, He's show great potential and I think he'll live up to that potential.

Put it this way If we wanted Billings and he wanted us and you asked for Carlisle I would laugh at you, And would expect Essendon to turn down that proposal quick smart.
This year's number 4 draft pick hasn't done anything yet. I'll trade you for Cameron Shenton, he's played some good games.
 

fishardansin

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Posts
15,126
Likes
10,047
Location
coburg
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Australian cricket team
Can't argue with your points about the Dogs. Carlisle and Kreuzer would be fantastic for them. They'd come at the perfect time too.

When it comes to your idea about player's value...
This part of your post; 'Clubs operate under a salary cap so players are paid according to their value to the club. If a player is paid 700k he is rated in the top 1% of the league', is fairly accurate (other than the percentage perhaps being an educated guess, but I'll allow you this). However the jump you make to this; 'So he is worth a top 10 pick', is what is clinically referred to as a leap in logic. You a inferring that, because of the first half of the sentence, the second half of the sentence must be true. Or in reality, my opinion on A provides enough evidence that my opinion on B is true. But really all we still have is your opinion. You haven't identified or proven any causal relationship between salary and trade value, other than to say I believe this, so therefore this must be true.
There is no actual correlation between a player's salary and what draft pick they should return via trade, other than the one you are making up yourself. There is no formula that governs this. You may believe that a player earning 700k should be (or as you have put, "is") worth a top 10 pick, but this is just your belief. Reality is a player is worth whatever a club is willing to part with to secure him, and whatever a club is willing to pay him. It doesn't have to make sense in comparison to previous trades or in comparison to what others are earning. You can't accurately assign a draft pick value to a player. Too simplistic
If a club thinks he's worth that and a prepared to pay him so then he's worth that much and Essendon us entitled to seek that level of compensation. Just because another club will try to screw us doesn't mean that is his value.

He will provide as much improvement to a list as Beams will to Brisbane.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 

fishardansin

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Posts
15,126
Likes
10,047
Location
coburg
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Australian cricket team
I hope everyone's been giving it to Jay Clark since his pathetic dribble of an article last night.
No. It's instead being used as more evidence that Essendon is unreasonable. Ah ... memes, gainsaying and stupid people. If you don't laugh at them you'll go crazy!!
 
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Posts
3,009
Likes
3,741
AFL Club
Essendon
Unfortunately, the circumstances here likely mean that you are not going to receive market value for Carlisle. You just need to hope that the club can return the best value that they can get. If he nominates a single club, two 2nd rd picks or even worse, just an exchange of several picks that see you move up in the draft order might be the best offer on the table.
The only way I see EFC getting a 1st rd pick is if there is considerable interest and a bidding war ensues, or if a team in the latter part of the first rd are willing to take him and must trump other offers.
No rational fan is arguing that he isn't worth a 1st rd pick, just that due to these particular circumstances Essendon may not get offered one.
Oh, and rightly or wrongly, Essendon do have a HORRIBLE reputation in the exchange period. Barrett mentioned it again on Wednesday while on Triple M. The Chief more or less agreed with him. It seems fairly commonly accepted that this is the case. Whether they deserve their reputation is irrelevant. Reputations aren't always built on facts.
Barrett saying something negative about Essendon...

That's what we MAY get considering the circumstances, but Essendon shouldn't be classified as a club hard to deal with just because they are asking for value. Every team does that. Gold Coast rejected pick 19 + Hooker for Caddy, yet we were labeled as hard to deal with. Then we didn't want to give Ryder up for pick 17 and we are hard to deal with. We ended up getting pick 26 for our leading goal kicker in Crameri and we are hard to deal with.

We'll probably enquire about Bennell and, you guessed it, we'll be reported as the hard one to deal with.

No matter what end we are on, the media and everyone on bigfooty will report us as being the one that is hard to deal with.

Glad the club won't give up Carlisle for a packet of chips, even if the media will report us as hard to deal with
 

cdcanman

Premiership Player
Joined
Sep 25, 2013
Posts
3,099
Likes
3,607
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Chicago Bulls
If a club thinks he's worth that and a prepared to pay him so then he's worth that much and Essendon us entitled to seek that LEVEL of compensation. Just because another club will try to screw us doesn't mean that is his value.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Again, you are talking as if there is some formula that governs this. That if Carlisle earns x amount of dollars, then that equates to draft pick y, some mythical LEVEL of compensation. Who decides these mythical LEVELS?
He will provide as much improvement to a list as Beams will to Brisbane.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
I'll just repeat this here
It doesn't have to make sense in comparison to previous trades or in comparison to what others are earning.
 

boncer34

Inaugural Steward
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Posts
40,457
Likes
40,224
Location
Baghdad
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Melbourne Storm
This just reeks of typical Essendon overrating their player.

They've got a guy who's uncontracted and wants out (no bargaining power) and they're asking for a contracted top 3 draft pick from only a couple of years ago in return.

**** me. Carlisle isn't a bad player, but his worth is about a 10-20 pick, not a player who was taken at pick 3 and hasn't really hit his straps yet
You know Essendon didn't write the article yeah?
 

cdcanman

Premiership Player
Joined
Sep 25, 2013
Posts
3,099
Likes
3,607
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Chicago Bulls
Barrett saying something negative about Essendon...

That's what we MAY get considering the circumstances, but Essendon shouldn't be classified as a club hard to deal with just because they are asking for value. Every team does that. Gold Coast rejected pick 19 + Hooker for Caddy, yet we were labeled as hard to deal with. Then we didn't want to give Ryder up for pick 17 and we are hard to deal with. We ended up getting pick 26 for our leading goal kicker in Crameri and we are hard to deal with.

We'll probably enquire about Bennell and, you guessed it, we'll be reported as the hard one to deal with.

No matter what end we are on, the media and everyone on bigfooty will report us as being the one that is hard to deal with.

Glad the club won't give up Carlisle for a packet of chips, even if the media will report us as hard to deal with
I'm not arguing whether Essendon should or shouldn't have that reputation. My opinion on the matter couldn't be more irrelevant. It's not BigFooty posters that are creating this reputation, and it's not the things that are happening now or in the upcoming exchange period that are creating it either. There is no conspiracy or persecution of Essendon here. The reputation they have is completely independent of anything else that has occurred at EFC over the past 3 seasons. It is solely to do with what numerous rival football clubs have reported to multiple football journos about Essendon's conduct during the player exchange period over the past several years. If you have a capacity to look at this objectively, you will be forced to accept this as reality. I'm not saying the reputation is right or fair or warranted. I wouldn't know this any more than any other BigFooty poster. I'm just saying that objectively, you can't deny the reputation is reality
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

SherbertLemon

Premiership Player
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Posts
3,698
Likes
5,099
AFL Club
Essendon
This just reeks of typical Essendon overrating their player.

They've got a guy who's uncontracted and wants out (no bargaining power) and they're asking for a contracted top 3 draft pick from only a couple of years ago in return.

**** me. Carlisle isn't a bad player, but his worth is about a 10-20 pick, not a player who was taken at pick 3 and hasn't really hit his straps yet
With respect you're being naive. You don't go into negotiations and state what is fair between both parties or you will be walked all over.

Start high and then meet your counterpart in the middle or else you will be stomped on.

Furthermore nobody has a clue about the negotiations anyway, so making fleeting judgements about a clubs demands is just derpy.
 

fargothegreat

Premiership Player
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Posts
3,076
Likes
6,015
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Hobart Hurricanes
With respect you're being naive. You don't go into negotiations and state what is fair between both parties or you will be walked all over.

Start high and then meet your counterpart in the middle or else you will be walked over.

Furthermore nobody has a ruddy clue about the negotiations anyway, so making fleetign judgements about a clubs demands is just derpy.
I get what you're saying in that you start high and then work your way down, but starting at a completely unrealistic target doesn't help Essendon remove their reputation as being hard to deal with

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk
 

Big Fresh

Premiership Player
Joined
Aug 6, 2013
Posts
3,174
Likes
2,533
AFL Club
Essendon
Jake has no love for Essendon. If Essendon dick him around I can see him heading to the PSD.

Given the arrogance and stupidity of Essendon over the last decade expect them to stuff it up and get nothing or a lot less than they should as they will do a last minute deal to save face after knocking back better trade deals earlier.
When has that happened before? Last year Essendon held out on the Ryder trade and got an additional pick as a result.
 

aussierulesrules

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Posts
26,976
Likes
45,773
Location
Heaven. I mean Victoria.
AFL Club
St Kilda
With respect you're being naive. You don't go into negotiations and state what is fair between both parties or you will be walked all over.

Start high and then meet your counterpart in the middle or else you will be stomped on.
Not if you stand your ground. Making an ambit claim is just a waste of everyone's time. I don't think you'd see a club like Hawthorn do anything of the sort and that's probably why they are so good at getting deals done every year with a minimum of fuss. They don't **** around with childish bullshit like asking for a Wingard or Billings and as such I think clubs respect them for it and don't try to screw them over or waste their time as a result.
 
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Posts
36,022
Likes
21,374
Location
Narre Warren North
AFL Club
St Kilda
Other Teams
.
With respect you're being naive. You don't go into negotiations and state what is fair between both parties or you will be walked all over.

Start high and then meet your counterpart in the middle or else you will be stomped on.

Furthermore nobody has a clue about the negotiations anyway, so making fleeting judgements about a clubs demands is just derpy.
Asking 20 grand for your VN commodore as a starting point is unlikely to result in you ending up with a higher sale price. What it would do is simply scare people away.
Now what happens to Carlisle if ALL the clubs are scared away from the trade table?
 

fishardansin

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Posts
15,126
Likes
10,047
Location
coburg
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Australian cricket team
I'm not arguing whether Essendon should or shouldn't have that reputation. My opinion on the matter couldn't be more irrelevant. It's not BigFooty posters that are creating this reputation, and it's not the things that are happening now or in the upcoming exchange period that are creating it either. There is no conspiracy or persecution of Essendon here. The reputation they have is completely independent of anything else that has occurred at EFC over the past 3 seasons. It is solely to do with what numerous rival football clubs have reported to multiple football journos about Essendon's conduct during the player exchange period over the past several years. If you have a capacity to look at this objectively, you will be forced to accept this as reality. I'm not saying the reputation is right or fair or warranted. I wouldn't know this any more than any other BigFooty poster. I'm just saying that objectively, you can't deny the reputation is reality
Absolute junk. It's to do with some bullshit stemming back to crazy Kevin's trading shenanigans. Since then Essendon has been consistently fair and easy to deal with. Name a trade that Essendon was difficult in? We were bent over in Paddy deal, Crameri went for slight unders and Gold Coast (thankfully with hindsight) were being difficult regarding Caddy.
 

fishardansin

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Posts
15,126
Likes
10,047
Location
coburg
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Australian cricket team
I get what you're saying in that you start high and then work your way down, but starting at a completely unrealistic target doesn't help Essendon remove their reputation as being hard to deal with

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk
Pick 5 won't happen, but it's not far off his value. So it's a good starting point.
 

big_sav

All Australian
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Posts
725
Likes
117
Location
Mount Eliza
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Carlton, Chelsea
Asking 20 grand for your VN commodore as a starting point is unlikely to result in you ending up with a higher sale price. What it would do is simply scare people away.
Now what happens to Carlisle if ALL the clubs are scared away from the trade table?
Welcome to Carlton mr Carlisle
 

gangsta deluxe

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Posts
7,488
Likes
7,907
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Rajasthan Royals!!!
Absolute junk. It's to do with some bullshit stemming back to crazy Kevin's trading shenanigans. Since then Essendon has been consistently fair and easy to deal with. Name a trade that Essendon was difficult in? We were bent over in Paddy deal, Crameri went for slight unders and Gold Coast (thankfully with hindsight) were being difficult regarding Caddy.

You're joking aren't you?

The reason Essendon are hard to deal with isn't the end result, because Dodo ends up caving. It is the fact that each time it takes ******* ages to sort out a deal and some of the offers he puts on the table are absolutely ridiculous. Look at the Crameri deal again. Idiot was asking for our first rounder. Wouldnt budge till the end of trade week. Held us up in other deals which would have gone through if he wasnt acting like a petulant used car salesman.

Ultimately it is the hold up (and the unpleasant flow on from this) that is the issue. He is deliberately difficult to deal with in the hope of extracting a 'win' out of the other club. That whole adversarial perspective pisses people off as people arent stupid. They arent going to stand for being dudded when they arent under the barrel, yet the tossbag tries it on every single time and delays the deal almost pathologically. Like he is dealing with Fremantle circa late 1990s...
 

Milanista28

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Posts
10,735
Likes
16,151
AFL Club
Essendon
Where did i say that. My post was merely to highlight the flawed logic in the post i was responding to. Obvious to anyone with 1/3 of a brain i would have thought .
Difference being I compared 2 young players who have huge potential, You compared someone who doesn't exist yet and a VFL player.

Ok, Casper?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom