Jake Carlisle Updates

Dopey BJ

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Why is recruiting Carlisle a major error? He completes our spine for the next 8 years and has the potential to be a great KPD while allowing Goddard the tiem to develop as we transition away from Dempster and Fisher. Not getting him leaves us very exposed in defense in a few years as all we'd have is Delaney and a bunch of kids.

Overall, I think you are making a lot of (imo bad) assumptions and are over reacting based on those assumptions.

The Hawks weren't part of the picture once we got confirmation from Carlisle that he wanted to play for us and we got him on board with our 'fair' offer.

Carlisle was never worth 5 based on his football ability because he was out of contract. In the end we may have given up 5 but we got 14 back. 24 is irrelevant as we were only ever going to use 1 pick in the draft. As such, 5 and 24 for 14 and Carlisle is a VERY good deal.
You're happy to recruit blokes who video themselves doing blow but please don't put pokies at Moorabbin, WTF
 

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Wat? The proper analogy would be for a business, not your kids. Carlisle hasn't even set foot in the door as an employee yet. What does the club owe him?

BTW I own a business (albeit very small) and yeah, if an employee _who hadn't even started yet_ did something damage the reputation of a business where perhaps they key business priority was culture / reputation rebuilding (and doing a good job for the last couple of years) then yeah I'd be shot of them in a minute if I had a legal avenue to do so.

To continue the 'lol' replies, I think Bains should be be on a final warning too, it was a horror call after several years of awesome trading and drafting. Peter Gordon was smug as f**k on SEN on Friday about WB doing their due diligence and passing on JC.

If our targeted premiership window was, I dunno 2017 - 2019 then yeah I could understand some urgency that would cause you to deal to fill a vital need. But seriously we're looking at finals in 2017 (if all goes really well), and top 4 / competing for the premiership I would guess from 2019 for a few years. There was absolutely no urgent need to get this trade done.
As a business owner surely you realise there is no magic "due diligence" button to press on the google.
People spout off about due diligence all the time.
What specific actions do you think Bains and co should have taken?

If you sacked your own employee, you can get another.
Unfortunately we have this system where we traded a valuable draft pick.
So you saved up for a block of land , only to find that there is asbestos buried there. Do you walk away and throw your investment out the window, or do you thump your fist through the wall, then go about the cost and time involved with cleaning it up.
 

Joffaboy

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You're happy to recruit blokes who video themselves doing blow but please don't put pokies at Moorabbin, WTF
Are you happy for players to drink alcohol, or take prescription drugs with alcohol?

What pokies have to do with the argument is unclear.
I am happy Carlisle is a Saint. Personally couldn't care if he is coked to the eyeballs. I don't want him as a friend or son in law. I want him to play football for the Saints.

I don't care about the "image" of the game. I am not thinking of the children. He aint a role model for kids. Parents are.

I am quite bemused by the hypocrisy of some of the purist moalising.

Everybody. Do yourself a favour and read Timothy Doyles article in yesterday's Age.
 

gringo2011

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Funny enough I was at a corporate lunch on Saturday and talked about Carlisle with some Essendon supporters. One close to Paul Little, he was genuinely shocked about Jake stuffing up. That wasn't the funny bit, I went for a piss and two corporate guys went into the cubicle behind me together- it was a pretty classy place not some night club. Both about thirty and were talking loud enough to know they weren't just amorous homosexuals. They were pretty open about it- certainly not hiding what they were doing in a big way. I'm thinking I was a bit more closed eyed than I thought. Maybe jake is a product of society and really just a reflection. I spoke to the guys I was with about it and they thought it was weird I even thought about it.
 

gringo2011

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Funny enough I was at a corporate lunch on Saturday and talked about Carlisle with some Essendon supporters. One close to Paul Little, he was genuinely shocked about Jake stuffing up. That wasn't the funny bit, I went for a piss and two corporate guys went into the cubicle behind me together- it was a pretty classy place not some night club. Both about thirty and were talking loud enough to know they weren't just amorous homosexuals. They were pretty open about it- certainly not hiding what they were doing in a big way. I'm thinking I was a bit more closed eyed than I thought. Maybe jake is a product of society and really just a reflection. I spoke to the guys I was with about it and they thought it was weird I even thought about it.

They weren't part of our group by the way, seemed to be a work group.
 

cooperrules

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I haven' t been on her since trading closed except to say I was done.

I always intended to come back on explain my thoughts.

I think recruiting Carlisle was a major error for our club due to a change of heart by someone at the club.

From the beginning of the trade period we were told by the club we didn't rate Carlisle as a pick 5 trade but perhaps 24 wasn't quite enough. This had to be because of his attitude, if was purely his football ability pick 5 would surely be in play.

Then Hawthorn entered the fray and I believe someones ego got in the way.

If it was Wayne Hughes free agent scout I think then Trout had to say pull your head in.
If it was Trout Richo had to say pull your head in.
If it was Richo Ameet had to say pull your head in.
If it was Ameet (who I suspect) Finnis had to say no way.

So until I can get over the knot in my guts that this has caused The support I given to my club for 50 years is over.
I honestly hope I can get over it but right now I doubt it.
I think the move from moorabbin is the worst in the clubs history and you survived that so i'm sure you can get past your anxiety over this trade period.
 

gringo2011

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my one problem, is that bringing in 4 players and removing only 4 players seems to me that we are happy with the list. but how can we be?

we won 3 games last year and only 6 and half games this year. I am not sure that is enough to only tinker with the edges of our list.

maybe we should have again cut deeply or trade a player out or two?

what happens if we are ahead of ourselves. and 2016 is not a good year? a waste of a year?
I thought it was a hard call with guys like Siposs who were starting to show some VFL form so losing more would be cutting for cuttings sake. I think we must be pretty happy to see where this group can go. Saunders, Wright and Murdoch probably have next year to show something but I think all have some potential.
 

VDS66

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As a business owner surely you realise there is no magic "due diligence" button to press on the google.
People spout off about due diligence all the time.
What specific actions do you think Bains and co should have taken?

If you sacked your own employee, you can get another.
Unfortunately we have this system where we traded a valuable draft pick.
So you saved up for a block of land , only to find that there is asbestos buried there. Do you walk away and throw your investment out the window, or do you thump your fist through the wall, then go about the cost and time involved with cleaning it up.
That's a pretty balanced post.

People can say anything at an interview... they can even make sure where their references come from.

These are the important questions that need to be answered IMO:

Did Jake do something stupid? Yes, by his own admission.

Did he actually snort coke? well we don't really know that for a fact, so it's a bit rich passing judgement on him at tis stage.

What's the difference between Jake and a few others on our list? Jake got caught.

Does it make a difference that he hasn't pulled on our jumper yet? Massive, it would appear. I don't recall the same outrage at Steven, Gtrain or even Milne for that matter.

Is it the end of the world? Not by a long shot.

Its all getting a bit boring to be honest.

Easy to fire shots and pontificate from their Ivory Tower... much harder to spend one's time out there and actually helping kids with drug problems.

Rather than waste time on here, get out and do something about the drug scourge. Talk is cheap.
 

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CursingFijian

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Jake's behaviour is less than ideal, but he will get off lightly in this instance. The big issue is that consuming drugs to get your kicks can become destructive, not just to yourself but to everyone around you. Personally I would not trade the quality of the rest of Jake's life for a premiership...I don't think it is worth it. But right now I am happy for Jake to be given another chance, a heap of counselling and hopefully watch him flourish.

While Jake's behaviour upsets me I am also aggreived that the Saints have been forced to accept a circumstance that is less than ideal. If we knew about the video I do not believe we would have made the investment. I also believe that the video was released close enough to the trade being signed off that we should have been allowed to cancel it if we wanted to. But no...baby gets put in the corner again. I suppose trading legislation will be tweaked to ensure that this doesn't happen to other clubs.
 
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austinnn

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My God, its sad to see fundamentism amongst the St kilda fans here.

I think it's time we were real about Jake: he's not a sketchy drug addict, he's a pro sports player who unwound on holiday in a bad way. He probably still lives healthier than the childhood footy heroes of our anti drugs membership burning chapter did when they played.

Football players are not angels, gods or saviours, they may be regarded as heroes for their sporting prowess but besides that, they are no more role models than anyone in the entertainment industry.

Of course we want our club to stand for good and avoid bad seeds but even the hawks with all their success are riddled with scandal, footy clubs don't exist in a vacuum, and players don't train in monasteries.

It doesn't mean that our club stands for nothing if we don't immediately sack our newest recruit for a stupid mistake. It means we back ourselves to turn him around, rather than the opposite. Something we were too inscure to do in Lovett's case, so soon after Duthiegate.

To me, this new St Kilda philosophy stands for a lot more and is one extra reason to back the club, rather than turn my back in some closed-eyed cardboard NO TO DRUGS stance.
 

Dopey BJ

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My God, its sad to see fundamentism amongst the St kilda fans here.

To me, this new St Kilda philosophy stands for a lot more and is one extra reason to back the club, rather than turn my back in some closed-eyed cardboard NO TO DRUGS stance.
My issues are not the drugs on their own, I would be the worlds greatest hypocrite if that was the case, it's more the stupidity of videoing and posting it.
My bigger concern was how we caved in the trade period, we should have been confident enough to say "Well bugger you go to Hawthorn"
 

Dr Spaceman

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Could we have got Carlisle cheaper than we did? Maybe. Certainly many footy fans who were not privy to any of the discussions which took place think so. Many who have never spoken to Bains, or to Carlisle, or to McConville or to Dodo think so.

Could we have done more thorough due diligence? Maybe. Certainly many footy fans who were not privy to any of the discussions which took place think so. Many who have never spoken to Bains, or to Carlisle, or to McConville or to Dodo think so.

Could we have .........? etc etc etc

None of that matters to me. He's ours now and he cost what he cost. And he's done what he's done.

I'm only interested in what he can now bring to our club.

Perhaps we can all emerge down the track with a very good story off the field and an even greater one on it.
 

Gresh_Magic

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My issues are not the drugs on their own, I would be the worlds greatest hypocrite if that was the case, it's more the stupidity of videoing and posting it.
My bigger concern was how we caved in the trade period, we should have been confident enough to say "Well bugger you go to Hawthorn"
But Carlisle didn't want to play for Hawthorn. It was a fall back option?

I was confident once the Carlisle camp said St Kilda or bust.

Pick 5 for Carlisle & 14, where do I sign!? - 24 means nothing in a shallow draft imo
 

Joffaboy

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I agree. I can't see where we "caved".

Fact 1. We have been after Carlisle for months

Fact 2. We offered terms that blew everybody else off the park. Another indication on how much we value Carlisle

Fact 3. Bains consistently said we would not trade #5 as a straight swap but wanted a first round pick. This was achieved in the trade.

So the facts don't bear out caving. And why say go to Hawthorn if Bains got the trade he wanted?

Supposition 1. We have pick 14 and the recruiters think they can get their original first round choice in Mathieson at this pick.

Result of supposition 1. If we draft Mathieson it means we got Carlisle for our second rounder.

So no caving

We have got in this D&T we have
In
Carlisle
Freeman
14 Mathieson? ??
Rice
Sinclair

Out
5
24
Next years second
Third and fourth rounders for Rice.
Fifth rounder for Sinclair

The insurance far outweigh the outs purely on draft picks.

No compare our ins to our delists
Mark worth
Sipposs
Wight
Simpkin

Our list is so much stronger. The in far outweigh the delisted players.

Continuous improvement.

Hope this helps the dissapointment of the Carlisle blip
 
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