List Mgmt. James Gallagher - New St.Kilda List Manager

gringo2011

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On a scale of what has gone wrong with our list with player development and everything else that has de-railed this season, the 2 year deals that Wright & Meatball signed are totally insignificant.

Bains helped rebuild an absolute basket case of a list with a number shrewd trades and signings. Trout may have picked too conservatively on draft night and a number havent come on as we would have liked them to but we should never forget how bare the cupboard of young talent was in 2012.

Long Live Ameetos
I think we were just projecting our hopes on to Ameet, he had the easiest job in footy trying to spend minimum cap. Apart from making a whole lot of trades that looked like a win at the time, not many have actually been great for us. The only trade we have got right in recent history is the Carlisle Gresham trade.
 

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gringo2011

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the minimum # of players on the main list is 38
the Maximum is 40, draftees and Rookies carry a 2 year initial contract period
minimum 3 DP's ( 1 may be rookie upgrade )

whilst we all question the 2 year deals the other options were players in the 5th and 6 rounds of the draft which we have to carry anyhow for 2 years.
stuffed if you do and stuffed if you don't, at the minimum Minch and Co. had the capacity to step into the side and be comparatively competitive, Verses 1st/2nd year kids that aren't even in the top 80+ of their draft year.

Except take 2015 Bailey Rice, Oleg Markov, Jack Silvagni, Mitch Brown, Tom Phillips, Sam Menagola, Nathan Broad, Wylie Buzza etc all taken after pick 49. All of those guys would offer more than Minch and Wright who have been written off for years by the club. Most of the two year deals were on the back of one good game. We also delisted guys like Tom Lee, Spencer White and Eli Templeton who got less chances because we'd locked away these guys. 22 games in 6 years says the club aren't really seeing him as the future.
 

bird_man

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I think we were just projecting our hopes on to Ameet, he had the easiest job in footy trying to spend minimum cap. Apart from making a whole lot of trades that looked like a win at the time, not many have actually been great for us. The only trade we have got right in recent history is the Carlisle Gresham trade.
What about pick 10 for picks 7, 23 and 36?

That netted us Clark, Long and Battle, all for one pick. Two of those guys have received a rising star nom and the other guy was stiff not to get one.
 

gringo2011

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What about pick 10 for picks 7, 23 and 36?

That netted us Clark, Long and Battle, all for one pick. Two of those guys have received a rising star nom and the other guy was stiff not to get one.

All are promising but we are going backwards instead of forwards on field. We traded away players and didn't get a player as good back and spent high picks on Longer and Hickey etc. We still have the least elite or top end talent of any side in the AFL as it stands which is an indictment on the people in charge. We might find that ends up being the great trade of the century but right now we have three guys with potential and are sitting in the bottom 4 and looking like we have a long road ahead.
 

bird_man

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We might find that ends up being the great trade of the century but right now we have three guys with potential and are sitting in the bottom 4 and looking like we have a long road ahead.
As opposed to having one guy with potential and sitting in the bottom 4 like we would have if we had not done the trade.

Whatever way you spin it, it was a fantastic trade by Baines. After that it was up to Trout to get the picks right, which is looking promising at the moment.
 

gringo2011

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As opposed to having one guy with potential and sitting in the bottom 4 like we would have if we had not done the trade.

Whatever way you spin it, it was a fantastic trade by Baines. After that it was up to Trout to get the picks right, which is looking promising at the moment.

But it's only good as the outcome. Like trading Mc Evoy was brilliant until we had to get another ruckman and paid a lot to get someone not as good and then players like Savage who most fans would delist tomorrow. Even Stanley for pick 21 or what ever it was is only genius if it actually gets us in a better position than the one we started in. To me we have tried to beat the system by taking short cuts and none of them have made it quicker. I think we thought we could get back to finals before Rooey retired and we didn't want to take the slow road.
 

bird_man

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But it's only good as the outcome. Like trading Mc Evoy was brilliant until we had to get another ruckman and paid a lot to get someone not as good and then players like Savage who most fans would delist tomorrow. Even Stanley for pick 21 or what ever it was is only genius if it actually gets us in a better position than the one we started in. To me we have tried to beat the system by taking short cuts and none of them have made it quicker. I think we thought we could get back to finals before Rooey retired and we didn't want to take the slow road.
And we can only judge the outcome on what we've got so far.

Would you rather we have Jy Simpkin, or Clark, Long and Battle?
 

Lightsxo

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I think we were just projecting our hopes on to Ameet, he had the easiest job in footy trying to spend minimum cap. Apart from making a whole lot of trades that looked like a win at the time, not many have actually been great for us. The only trade we have got right in recent history is the Carlisle Gresham trade.
This is blatantly not true though

Stanley and 60 for 21 is a massive win for us as that's got us Dmac.

We gave up a second rounder for Steele, we're comfortably ahead.

The entire Hawks trade where we ended up getting:
Long Battle and Clark/Coffield for Jai Simpin.

I’m going to go on a limb and say Koby was a draw just cause of his concussions. We literally traded him for a swap of late round picks.
 

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Mangus

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Strategy is sound we need someone to set up the systems to be more analytical provide a short - medium - long term view of our list and player development and the contractual / TPP planning to support that - It is what Bains did well - Maximise your ability to bring talent into the club by managing the TPP to allow for bringing experienced players to the club and trading smart to increase the number and position of draft picks - Be strategic and analytical about who you chase and how you assess the needs of the list. Have a process for measuring over time the ability of our recruiters to identify talent and make changes if necessary. Whether our new list manager is the right person to do this or just Lethlean building his support base time will tell.

Also hopefully he brings some experience in negotiation and ability to close a deal another area Bains excelled at IMO
 

Mat Mann

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Except take 2015 Bailey Rice, Oleg Markov, Jack Silvagni, Mitch Brown, Tom Phillips, Sam Menagola, Nathan Broad, Wylie Buzza etc all taken after pick 49. All of those guys would offer more than Minch and Wright who have been written off for years by the club. Most of the two year deals were on the back of one good game. We also delisted guys like Tom Lee, Spencer White and Eli Templeton who got less chances because we'd locked away these guys. 22 games in 6 years says the club aren't really seeing him as the future.
that's some weird selections gringo

We took Bailey Rice as FS
Markov was available yes - mature ager
Silvagni was nominated Carlton FS
Mitch Brown the Geelong delistee and Essendon top up player
Tom Phillips fair enough
Menagola, already delisted by 2 clubs
Wylie Buzza yes Missed
Broad was mature age

but we already drafted 3 and upgraded Sinclair and traded for Carlisle
we delisted (2015)
Farren Ray, Ahmed Saad, Josh Saunders ( re rookied), Daniel Markworth,Tom Simpkin, Arryn Siposs,Spencer White and Adam Schneider retired
(2016)
Tom Lee, Brodie Murdoch, Cameron Shenton, Eli Templeton, Tom Curren, Luke Delaney, Brenton Payne, Josh Saunders, Sam Fisher(retired)

I find the 2 years odd but not their retention when you look at who we let go and to say Lee or Templeton had less opportunities because to those 2 is absurd
 

StCicatriz

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Not keen on cheating if that's what you are suggesting.
it just feels like clubs are able to stock up with 3-4 big signings without letting go of anyone good or elite. i wonder how many are doing it. wce & richmond & hawthorn & geelong & collingwood & port & freo are clubs that come to mind. for example fyfe re-signs on big money. they just re-signed mundy and neale on good money. then they pick up wilson, bennell, mcarthy, kersten, hamling, matera, brad hill. whilst re-signing the kids on overs. then you hear theyre throwing big coin at the mcgoverns. 10 years ago, they would have been able to re-sign fyfe, pick up max 2 of those names, had to have shed a player or two, and let one of the kids go.

i dont think ken wood is sophisticated enough to follow the money and clubs are exploiting it now. maybe the AFL needs to look at a forensic accountant to review these contracts and the TPP rather than having some old bloke there ticking off on stuff during trade week.

watch richmond and the pies go bang in the off-season.
 

Winmar2Lockett

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I think we were just projecting our hopes on to Ameet, he had the easiest job in footy trying to spend minimum cap. Apart from making a whole lot of trades that looked like a win at the time, not many have actually been great for us. The only trade we have got right in recent history is the Carlisle Gresham trade.
I honestly can’t tell when you’re extracting the urine or being serious anymore.

The melty rants are like the little boy who cried wolf. It’s Trout’s fault, then it’s Ameets, then it’s the Pelican’s & don’t forget Richo.

All of those blokes have had hits & misses but the irrefutable reason we’re stuck in the pig poo is found in the Lyon years.

Ameet was a great operator & helped right a ship that was drifting straight towards an abyss.

It wasn’t just the trades that Ameetos pulled off but the signings like Skunk & Robbo that helped get quality into the club.

And surely Gresh/ Carlisle is equaled by the Long/Battle/Clark trade.



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gringo2011

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This is blatantly not true though

Stanley and 60 for 21 is a massive win for us as that's got us Dmac.

We gave up a second rounder for Steele, we're comfortably ahead.

The entire Hawks trade where we ended up getting:
Long Battle and Clark/Coffield for Jai Simpin.

I’m going to go on a limb and say Koby was a draw just cause of his concussions. We literally traded him for a swap of late round picks.

I think it was Goddard for Stanley.

Anyway it's all good if we get some elite talent. If not they have failed in their job.

If you go through every clubs talent we just don't compare. We have Steven and Carlisle who are A grade and Gresham who is getting closer every game. Then a huge amount of good even B to C graders. That's not good enough for 8 years into a rebuild. If that's good enough for you I'd suggest you are easily pleased. Hopefully al the kids we have are all guns but we'd banked Billings as elite and now most seem to want him gone for a late first rounder, some think he's worth a mid second at best.
 

gringo2011

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I honestly can’t tell when you’re extracting the urine or being serious anymore.

The melty rants are like the little boy who cried wolf. It’s Trout’s fault, then it’s Ameets, then it’s the Pelican’s & don’t forget Richo.

All of those blokes have had hits & misses but the irrefutable reason we’re stuck in the pig poo is found in the Lyon years.

Ameet was a great operator & helped right a ship that was drifting straight towards an abyss.

It wasn’t just the trades that Ameetos pulled off but the signings like Skunk & Robbo that helped get quality into the club.

And surely Gresh/ Carlisle is equaled by the Long/Battle/Clark trade.



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I can't actually tell myself any more. Anyway it's all of them. One man didn't make all the calls but we idolise these administrators until they are gone and we realise the gloss might have been in our imagination. It's childish to think every one that comes in is a messiah and is about to lead us to the top of the mountain.

The whole running towards a cliff thing was just the narrative we spun to make the Pelchen plan palatable. We could have off loaded Goddard and been in the clear. We hardly had anyone on big money left when Dal Santo was let go.

How do you know Ameet did the deal for Skunk? Roberton was shopped to all Melbourne clubs then delisted. I'm not sure it was a mastery of strategy example.

Carlisle and Gresham are an elite trade example because you have one in our best 3 players now and a guy that is our only realistic elite quality young player based on real evidence. Long has stats this year that look a lot like Lonies, he's exciting but realistically he's played a handful of games, Battle again looks exciting but being a late pick might have been available anyway and Clarke could be another average talent or a superstar. It's too early to call yet.

Time will tell but I'm getting sick of waiting.
 

cooperrules

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All are promising but we are going backwards instead of forwards on field. We traded away players and didn't get a player as good back and spent high picks on Longer and Hickey etc. We still have the least elite or top end talent of any side in the AFL as it stands which is an indictment on the people in charge. We might find that ends up being the great trade of the century but right now we have three guys with potential and are sitting in the bottom 4 and looking like we have a long road ahead.
Our pick return has been horrid. Hopefully it will change or no mans land continues.
 

Lightsxo

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We used 21 on Goddard, and Stanley has so far done more for the Cats than Goddard has for us.
No it really didn’t. We had back to back picks. We would have picked Goddard regardless if available.

Same thing with Clark/Coffield. Assuming Hawks kept their pick we would chosen Clark if available.

When we had a PP in 2000 it wasn’t Riewoldt we got with it it was actually Kozi. We would have picked Rooey regardless at #1
 

gringo2011

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No it really didn’t. We had back to back picks. We would have picked Goddard regardless if available.

Same thing with Clark/Coffield. Assuming Hawks kept their pick we would chosen Clark if available.

When we had a PP in 2000 it wasn’t Riewoldt we got with it it was actually Kozi. We would have picked Rooey regardless at #1
We didn't take the relatives of Cripps, Riewoldt, Dal Santo etc all champions....but then take Nick Winmar and Goddard who look like busts. :(. I reckon Jack Riewoldt over Mc Qualter and we would have premiership or two more.
 

Saint Watto

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The whole running towards a cliff thing was just the narrative we spun to make the Pelchen plan palatable. We could have off loaded Goddard and been in the clear. We hardly had anyone on big money left when Dal Santo was let go.
One thought that passes thru my mind is….what if we didn't let BJ,big boy and Dal leave...….in BJ's case we bettered the Bombers offer and gave him that extra year.

You wonder where we'd be right now......would we have won a lot more games and finished in the 8 or just below in the post Watters years......which would have directly impacted our draft position.

Or when the senior guys eventually retire or leave....would we be stuck in no mans land on the ladder depending on the draft for many years.

Sliding doors moments tho.
 

stfan

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No it really didn’t. We had back to back picks. We would have picked Goddard regardless if available.

Same thing with Clark/Coffield. Assuming Hawks kept their pick we would chosen Clark if available.

Is that you Trout?

Who knows what would have happened and so you can only compare what did happen rather than what may of have happened.

But as you said we would have take Goddard regardless and so with out pick 21, as long as the Cats did not take Goddard we have used pick 22 on Goddard and so no DMack.

Anyway the fact is it was used on Goddard and so the pick gained was the price paid for him and not Dmack.When we had a PP in 2000 it wasn’t Riewoldt we got with it it was actually Kozi. We would have picked Rooey regardless at #1
This is completely irrelevant as it was not a trade but a bonus pick.
 

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