Coach James Hird - is it time to give him a second chance at coaching an AFL club? Gil says yes!

[theyellowsash]

I think he won't be offered one at AFL level first.
If he coached well at VFL level he might be a chance of getting an AFL job.
I don't know exactly how the blame for the drugs saga should be shared between hird/ Robinson/dank/Evans, but I think Hird could have actually got off relatively freely by saying that Dank lied and assured him they weren't crossing a line that they clearly did. I am not saying I wish that was the outcome, it just seemed strange to me essendon didn't do a better job of laying blame on Dank.

Blinkers in supporting the pretty boy is why. Basically sums up their entire approach to the saga. Even at the players expense.

Plus I think it was obvious enough hird knew what was going on that it never would have worked

 

[owen87]

Yep, you have been triggered.

Get informed you say.
This would be you trying to tell us you are informed, yeah?

So tell us all which clubs were doing this team wide experimental doping programs.

Seems to me Collingwood players were getting into their own programs, nothing like Essendon.
Carlton actually investigated what Essendon were doing, so I doubt it was them.

So, informed one, which clubs were doing "similar" to Essendon?

I'd start by checking out where Robinson and Dank went, you know; Geelong, Gold Coast, Melbourne. None of whom were ever properly investigated because there was zero reason for the AFL to do so, and ASADA had their easy scalp because the program at Essendon was amateur hour.

Dank (despite being less than credible) named Collingwood, Hawthorn and West Coast as the clubs they were chasing.

James Hird allegedly believed Collingwood, Hawthorn and West Coast were ‘pushing the boundaries’ | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site

That's what, close to half the teams in the league now?

You're very keen to leap to the emotive language, which as I've already said, demonstrates your understanding of the topic area is at a tabloid media level

Do some wider reading on sports doping over the past 30 years, then reconsider your position that Essendon was a lone bastion of sports doping programmes. That's what getting informed means.

 

[LoungeLizard]

I'd start by checking out where Robinson and Dank went, you know; Geelong, Gold Coast, Melbourne. None of whom were ever properly investigated because there was zero reason for the AFL to do so, and ASADA had their easy scalp because the program at Essendon was amateur hour.

Dank (despite being less than credible) named Collingwood, Hawthorn and West Coast as the clubs they were chasing.

James Hird allegedly believed Collingwood, Hawthorn and West Coast were ‘pushing the boundaries’ | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site

That's what, close to half the teams in the league now?

You're very keen to leap to the emotive language, which as I've already said, demonstrates your understanding of the topic area is at a tabloid media level

Do some wider reading on sports doping over the past 30 years, then reconsider your position that Essendon was a lone bastion of sports doping programmes. That's what getting informed means.

So the informed one named Collingwood, players from Collingwood tested positive to drugs, but i'm fairly sure were not experimental, so not "similar"

Melbourne, another team the informed one named, players were being treated for injuries, so not the same as a team wide doping program.

Geelong were investigated, just because you say it wasn't proper doesn't make it so, they also had a player on their list who wouldn't even take a shot on his injured shoulder, who turned out to be the best player in the league, go figure.

So far you have given us nothing that remotely sound "similar" to what Essendon did, are you sure you are informed?

 

[owen87]

So the informed one named Collingwood, players from Collingwood tested positive to drugs, but i'm fairly sure were not experimental, so not "similar"

Melbourne, another team the informed one named, players were being treated for injuries, so not the same as a team wide doping program.

Geelong were investigated, just because you say it wasn't proper doesn't make it so, they also had a player on their list who wouldn't even take a shot on his injured shoulder, who turned out to be the best player in the league, go figure.

So far you have given us nothing that remotely sound "similar" to what Essendon did, are you sure you are informed?

Yawn, get some new arguments. You're using the absence of evidence, is evidence of absence line that has been proven time and again to be completely inadequate when it comes to sports doping.

I've made it quite clear that I think you're being incredibly naive to think that Essendon were somehow unique and alone in what they were doing. The main thing they did, was doing it poorly. Poorly run, using substances that didn't actually work, and getting caught.

Should have ponied up some real money to get the proven PEDs instead of the grey area stuff that might help, or might not, and made sure it wasn't run by an amateur like Dank.

If you want to live in a fantasy land where no other clubs were doing the same thing, by all means, but every sport worldwide has seen a doping arms race at various times in their history. The AFL isn't above that exact same thing. Do some reading, get some perspective.

There's almost zero incentive for sports leagues to police doping practices beyond the bare minimum, hell the NFL and MLB don't even have to deal with USADA because they have enough cash to simply not sign on to their rules. Sporting bodies have no incentive to stop it so long as it's not obvious, supporters want to believe their sporting heroes are completely clean, anti-doping agencies are woefully underfunded and just go for the easy, slam-dunk cases.

All we're doing is going around in circles here. You want to believe Essendon were the sole and only club doing these things, I think you're naive. Sports history suggests one of is more likely right than the other.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Yawn, get some new arguments. You're using the absence of evidence, is evidence of absence line that has been proven time and again to be completely inadequate when it comes to sports doping.

I've made it quite clear that I think you're being incredibly naive to think that Essendon were somehow unique and alone in what they were doing. The main thing they did, was doing it poorly. Poorly run, using substances that didn't actually work, and getting caught.

Should have ponied up some real money to get the proven PEDs instead of the grey area stuff that might help, or might not, and made sure it wasn't run by an amateur like Dank.

If you want to live in a fantasy land where no other clubs were doing the same thing, by all means, but every sport worldwide has seen a doping arms race at various times in their history. The AFL isn't above that exact same thing. Do some reading, get some perspective.

There's almost zero incentive for sports leagues to police doping practices beyond the bare minimum, hell the NFL and MLB don't even have to deal with USADA because they have enough cash to simply not sign on to their rules. Sporting bodies have no incentive to stop it so long as it's not obvious, supporters want to believe their sporting heroes are completely clean, anti-doping agencies are woefully underfunded and just go for the easy, slam-dunk cases.

All we're doing is going around in circles here. You want to believe Essendon were the sole and only club doing these things, I think you're naive. Sports history suggests one of is more likely right than the other.

Most of what you say I agree with.

The one thing I don't agree with is, you said "similar" to Essendon.

So you can rant and rave all you want, but we are talking about James Hird.
The evidence we know about points to him knowing what went on, players were treated like guinea pigs, no other club has been shown to do this, before or after.
You say the AFL is not about the exact same thing, well thank christ it's not, hows those financials going?

 

[owen87]

Most of what you say I agree with.

The one thing I don't agree with is, you said "similar" to Essendon.

So you can rant and rave all you want, but we are talking about James Hird.
The evidence we know about points to him knowing what went on, players were treated like guinea pigs, no other club has been shown to do this, before or after.
You say the AFL is not about the exact same thing, well thank christ it's not, hows those financials going?

You should look back at the original post chain I commented on then, James Hird wasn't mentioned.

Essendon ran a programme that consisted of substances that were borderline as to whether or not they were even effective as PEDs. The whole 'treated like guinea pigs' stuff is just emotive tabloid language for people who've never had to deal with a sport they follow having a doping case. The AFL public is incredibly naive on the topic, even today.

Sports doping is entirely playing in the spaces of new substances, blood transfusions, designer steroids, EPO, micro dosing, thyroid hormones, and even asthma medication. It's always about the new things that stay ahead of the testing, which is why we mostly see Olympic athletes from poor countries popped, as they can't afford the shiny new stuff or get the TUE's to make it 'legal'.

Professional athletes aren't running around using stanozolol these days.

At no point have I ranted or raved, much as you'd like to pretend otherwise. You're the one grasping at the emotive language as some kind of argument that it therefore isn't or wasn't happening elsewhere.

If you want to see what a proper cover-up looks like, check out the Spanish Government's effort with Operation Puerto and the Spanish soccer teams.

 

[LoungeLizard]

You should look back at the original post chain I commented on then, James Hird wasn't mentioned.

Essendon ran a programme that consisted of substances that were borderline as to whether or not they were even effective as PEDs. The whole 'treated like guinea pigs' stuff is just emotive tabloid language for people who've never had to deal with a sport they follow having a doping case. The AFL public is incredibly naive on the topic, even today.

Sports doping is entirely playing in the spaces of new substances, blood transfusions, designer steroids, EPO, micro dosing, thyroid hormones, and even asthma medication. It's always about the new things that stay ahead of the testing, which is why we mostly see Olympic athletes from poor countries popped, as they can't afford the shiny new stuff or get the TUE's to make it 'legal'.

Professional athletes aren't running around using stanozolol these days.

At no point have I ranted or raved, much as you'd like to pretend otherwise. You're the one grasping at the emotive language as some kind of argument that it therefore isn't or wasn't happening elsewhere.

If you want to see what a proper cover-up looks like, check out the Spanish Government's effort with Operation Puerto and the Spanish soccer teams.

The thread title is about James Hird.

The programme Essendon used was experimental, even mixing drugs that were experimental.

You may think this is ok, but I have never heard of this before, surely you could point me to the clubs that do this.

And if you can, I will have no hesitation of saying the same about the coach.

 

[branedotorg]

No.

Within what, a year of being given the coaching job, he set up a deliberate and systematic doping system to inject the players with illegal and untested/experimental drugs (while telling them they were vitamins if you believe the players), which included pressuring the club doctor and effectively suppressing his health concerns over the program. he then dragged the club and the players through the mud with frivolous law suits to prevent any investigation to protect himself.

some 'mistakes' are for life.

hey, hey come on.

he also looked at investing in the manufacturer of the drugs and using the players records as a proof of concept for further funding

 

[windyhill]

So then, you could provide proof then, because I don't believe any other club was using players as guinea pigs.

Positive drug tests. Ess 0 coll 3.

 

[owen87]

The thread title is about James Hird.

The programme Essendon used was experimental, even mixing drugs that were experimental.

You may think this is ok, but I have never heard of this before, surely you could point me to the clubs that do this.

And if you can, I will have no hesitation of saying the same about the coach.

And yet, the comment chain I was replying to was not specifically about James Hird. I know it's confusing, but sometimes things within a thread head off on a tangent that's not related to the thread title.

Who said the programme was 'ok'? You seem to consistently be trying to misrepresent what I've been saying.

As I already said; absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. We've pretty consistently seen in the sports doping realm that holds true with some things taking decades to come out after the fact, and some likely never coming out at all because there's simply no impetus or incentive to do so.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Positive drug tests. Ess 0 coll 3.

Point?

Are you saying this gives James Hird the right to coach again?

Because Collingwood have 3 more positive cases than Essendon.

 

[owen87]

Are you saying this gives James Hird the right to coach again?

Did he write that?

 

[LoungeLizard]

And yet, the comment chain I was replying to was not specifically about James Hird. I know it's confusing, but sometimes things within a thread head off on a tangent that's not related to the thread title.

Who said the programme was 'ok'? You seem to consistently be trying to misrepresent what I've been saying.

As I already said; absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. We've pretty consistently seen in the sports doping realm that holds true with some things taking decades to come out after the fact, and some likely never coming out at all because there's simply no impetus or incentive to do so.

You are not even close to showing other clubs have done or are doing what Essendon did, even if there is absence of evidence, that also doesn't mean it was done.
Other clubs were doing it, bullshit, other clubs weren't doing it.

No matter what you say, unless you have some sort of proof, Hird and Essendon were the only club doing it, so stop trying to justify what they did, and ok, you may think you aren't, but I think you need to, he is your god.

How are those financials going?

 

[LoungeLizard]

Did he write that?

See the question mark, and as you want to know, could you ask what he meant then?

 

[owen87]

other clubs weren't doing it

Doubtful.

Hird and Essendon were the only club doing

Doubtful.

stop trying to justify what they did

Once again, who's justifying it? You've made this up.

he is your god

You've also made this up.

How are those financials going?

Relevance?

You're simply naive if you believe Essendon was alone. But as you want to remain naive, there's little sense in continuing this circular discussion.

 

[owen87]

See the question mark, and as you want to know, could you ask what he meant then?

Well he never made comment about Hird, the quote he replied to wasn't about Hird, so there'd be no automatic suggestion or indication that it was related to Hird coaching again.

So again, did he write it? Or are you doing that thing where you make things up about what someone has said again?

 

[blackshadow]

Big LOLZ at owen87 resurrecting the old "look over there they must be doing it" line to deflect that his morally bankrupt excuse of a club was caught red handed doping their players and treating them as pharmacological guinea pigs. It brings back fond memories of the Hot Topic Board.

Good times!

 

[LoungeLizard]

Doubtful.



Doubtful.



Once again, who's justifying it? You've made this up.



You've also made this up.



Relevance?

You're simply naive if you believe Essendon was alone. But as you want to remain naive, there's little sense in continuing this circular discussion.

Similar, this is what you said, and still you are yet to give anything that remotely suggests this.

You can't grasp that can you?
Mixing experimental drugs and using players as guinea pigs.

No other club did or are doing this, if you think they were, then fine, but if you have nothing to show us then move on, you are a fraud.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Well he never made comment about Hird, the quote he replied to wasn't about Hird, so there'd be no automatic suggestion or indication that it was related to Hird coaching again.

So again, did he write it? Or are you doing that thing where you make things up about what someone has said again?

You don't even know what a question is, do you think maybe being in a Hird thread, I may have just thought that "could" be the point he was trying to get across

 

[owen87]

Big LOLZ at owen87 resurrecting the old "look over there they must be doing it" line to deflect that his morally bankrupt excuse of a club was caught red handed doping their players and treating them as pharmacological guinea pigs. It brings back fond memories of the Hot Topic Board.

Good times!

Way to misconstrue what's been written.

 

[owen87]

Mixing experimental drugs and using players as guinea pigs.

you are a fraud

You do love that emotive language.

Continue being naive if you like.

You don't even know what a question is, do you think maybe being in a Hird thread, I may have just thought that "could" be the point he was trying to get across

Of course you thought that. Despite him not saying it, giving any indication that's what he meant, and the comment him replying to not being at all related to that.

But sure, he 'could' have been. Unlikely though.

 

[LoungeLizard]

You do love that emotive language.

Continue being naive if you like.



Of course you thought that. Despite him not saying it, giving any indication that's what he meant, and the comment him replying to not being at all related to that.

But sure, he 'could' have been. Unlikely though.

One club investigated by the ACC after 12 months, one.

Yep must be I am naive, must have been a conspiracy against Essendon.

 

[windyhill]

Point?

Are you saying this gives James Hird the right to coach again?

Because Collingwood have 3 more positive cases than Essendon.

* no, I never wanted him in the first place, so ******* arrogant to get tim watson to shaft Knights. Watson has escaped so much scrutiny in the whole bloody mess. Point still remains, 0/3.

 

[owen87]

Yep must be I am naive

You are

must have been a conspiracy against Essendon.

Who said this? Doing that make up what people are thinking thing again?

 

[LoungeLizard]

fu** no, I never wanted him in the first place, so ******* arrogant to get tim watson to shaft Knights. Watson has escaped so much scrutiny in the whole bloody mess. Point still remains, 0/3.

Yeah it's 0/3, so then what is your point?

I better now jump to what I think you are trying to say, Owen might get upset.