James Sicily on Selwood

[ShadeyP]

Unbelievable the uproar about this ... Selwood who is the best cheap shot artist in the league holds a player by both legs who is trying to get away from him and then expects him not to give him one back .

Selwood has peak form in dropping knees in or pushing elbows into faces , flat out deserves to get as much as he gives .

Why is it an uproar when he cops it but he is courageous when he gives it .

Dog of a player .

 

[Off The Couch]

Sicily deserved the week - one drop would of probably seen him get away with it but alas the second was never going to end well even if there was no damage to paper head. I also didn’t mind the 50 - at least Selwood earnt the kick (hello 80’s) but Sicily does need to tamper his reactions and be mindful of where they get paid.

What’s disappointing is that Selwood didn’t cop a fine for the trip or is that no longer a rule. At least that would of sent the message that it won’t be tolerated.

I also presume that “what happens on the field stays on the field” no longer exists or is whining about the incident on national tv just a Selwood thing. Even worse were the sycophants that wouldn’t call him on being the instigator of the whole situation

 

[Pessimistic]

Selwood whining also saying “I’m holding back but...”

Plick and dumb to boot no one buys that s**t

 

[Brown n Gold]

$10k per appeal and it counts to the football department cap

Right, that makes sense then! and a nice little earn for the AFL.

 

[Pessimistic]

So caddy gets protected...wait.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Disgusting play.

Sicily should know you can't get away with a knee drop any more (No wait, Selwood did that to Kerridge and got away with it). Just like you can't drop an elbow from behind (Sam Mitchell), or to the throat (Roughead...Selwood got away with that too). Or slam tackles (Newman), or eye-gouging (Riley Knight)...lots of things you can't do anymore.

Come to think of it, Selwood is almost Judd-like in his abilty to get away with thuggish acts.

 

[BG32]

I dont see the uproar, Selwood was holding him and the 'Sis' got a week. Move along

 

[Suma Magic]

You know you're hated when neutrals rate you as a bigger flog than James Sicily.

 

[hk89]

Ok.The whole Selwood thing has grown into a laughable monster.
Selwood is a competitive beast and yep, he is a sore loser and he sooks to the umps too much.( although interestingly they don’t hold it against him which is what you’d expect-so that tells me something too-they are close to the action yet they must admire him).

I've wondered about that in the past, they certainly don't seem to hold it against him when assessing the high contact issue, but I do wonder if his sooking is partly why he's never cracked it for a Brownlow. He is easily good enough to have won one, and I can't help but wonder if that side of him might be the reason he hasn't, but I guess there was some pretty stiff competition in some of his best years, so maybe nothing in it. I also agree his competitiveness is clearly what drives those behaviours. If he was playing for my team, I'd certainly forgive him , knowing it was the part of his personality that absolutely hated losing that was leading to that behaviour. Its a pity, because it gets used by opposition fans to pot him, sometimes unfairly (and certainly I'm guilty of doing so).

He started doing this shrug and drop routine a long time ago now and have no doubt the original intention was simply to evade the tackle and get away. Happy to admit that as he has aged, he sometimes ( nope-not everytime) is hoping to draw a free kick. If it wasn’t paid he would continue on, as he has always played like that. Would like the umps to call play on myself- it would have no impact on his game. And then, so what really? He rarely gets the frees in front of goal like say, a Puopolo’s always are.

Well I guess the latter is more due to the positions they play. Almost every time I remember Selwood getting one is in your forward half, but I'm very willing to admit that is likely a highly selective memory, and the others didn't outrage me enough to stick in my head. I think all fans would be happy with a 'play on' interpretation, although I wouldn't be against calling it prior opportunity either, which means if he can successfully shrug the tackle, well done to him, he's eluded the tackle and goes on his way, if he doesn't and gets caught after shrugging instead of trying to dispose of the ball, then holding the ball would seem fair. In any case, even 'play on' would be a big step forward in interpretation , and a very easy fix to make. It still baffles me why the umpires are not using the new interpretations from last year to avoid paying these already. I don't see a lot of ambiguity on most of these on whether it is Selwood creating the contact via the shrug and drop or the tackler carelessly getting him over the shoulder. I reckon most tacklers know what to expect and ARE trying to get as low as they can when tackling him, but it is pretty hard when the knees bend and the arm goes up. You find a waist high tackle is hitting over the shoulder pretty quickly.

Dermie turned this in to a witch hunt because he too, is a competitive beast and sore loser and he was sick of losing to Geelong. And he of course, did far more offensive things on a field than Selwood has ever done, but he was happy to exploit his commentator position to go after Joel. Ordinary really and I sense Dermie has come to regret doing so. Good for him.

Yeah, I'm sure Dermie helped push the agenda on this, but it is hard to imagine this wasn't going to be a 'thing' eventually with or without a Dermie witch hunt.

The other amusing thing about the ‘duckwood’ tag is he never ducks, never has-he doesn’t drive his head into the pack-he does something else. And people who don’t get that, are simply compromised by prejudice.

I agree its not ducking. "Duckwood" is in the same basket as calling him a cheat. He's not really ducking, and he's not really cheating. They are just handy labels people are using to target someone who is doing something they don't like.

I can’t take ‘spirit of the game’ stuff seriously at the best of times but certainly not from the club that has led to a number of rules being changed because they exploited rules and went outside the ‘spirit of the game’.

I think most people see a difference between getting the most out of a situation like taking pressure off with a deliberate behind, and continually doing an action that gets you a free kick. We've been conditioned for years to see AFL as a sport played by blokes who generally don't "simulate" like they do in soccer. Trying to milk frees is for most people on a different level to using existing rules to maximise your winning chances. Both are exploitations of the system, but I can see why people seem to take a dimmer view of free milking than other 'loophole' tactics.

Nor do I accept this line Selwood is alway doing this and that -heaps of players do stuff on and off the ball-he is no angel, nor is he worse than most other players regarding this.

He's not always doing it, if he can dish off safely he often will, he does it enough to piss people off though. You will not find stats on how many of his frees are for this kind of thing. I'm sure he gets plenty of legitimate frees because he often has his head over the ball, but it would still be interesting to see if he drops down the free kicks ladder if the AFL does finally succeed in making umpires interpret the tactic as 'play on'. He is not the only player hard at the ball, and his free kick stats are pretty remarkable.
EDIT: Actually apparently there are stats on this type of thing:
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/head-high-contact-the-stats.1136042/
Seems Selwood is a massive outlier on High Frees. Nearly three times as many as 'head over the ball' players like Sam Mitchell who often came out of the bottom of a pack with claret coming from his head.

I agree that Selwood is no dirtier than any of the truly hard nuts that play the game. Most of them are good because they play on the edge, certainly the Hawthorn players in that mould were no different. I'm sure the annoyance with his arm lifting/knee bending is driving a lot of the 'dirty' player nonsense.

A number of hawthorn players for many years did their level best using elbows and worse at every game to take his head off behind the play so sooking about an elbow to Mitchell means nothing to me, sorry to say.

Fair enough. You probably have about as much sympathy for Mitchell getting Selwood's elbow in his back as I do for Selwood getting kneed in the head when dragging Sicily down on him. As you say , Selwood is no angel, and also has form on Hawthorn players in much the same way that they have form against him.

The last few years the Hawthorn players have certainly improved regarding this and mostly play a much fairer brand of footy and don’t target him anymore. Good on them. Sicily maybe not.
Unless they stop paying these frees Selwood’s actions have to be regarded as legit. Bring it on I say, if only so you lot can sleep at night. Pretty sure he isn’t worried about his ‘legacy’ like so many of you are. Nor am I. I have enjoyed every moment of his career- a wonderful tough and talented footballer.
In the end it’s just a game of footy and people would benefit from calming down.

I agree its more about making the non-Geelong fans happy. It is massively annoying as a non-Geelong supporter each time he gets a free like this. I think people would love to watch Selwood in action , and enjoy his combination of skill and hardness (when not playing their own team). Right now it is difficult to do. I can certainly see why Selwood and Geelong fans wouldn't give a s**t about that point of view. To be honest I don't lose a lot of sleep about people's negative opinions on S.Mitchell or Hodge either.

 

[hk89]

I'm also of the opinion that a lot of Selwood's efforts would result in the ball being moved to Geelong's advantage even if the ump called play on. Often he gets under the tackler and would be free to offload the ball. Why opposition players are not tackling him lower is beyond me. Everyone knows he does it, knows the umpires pay the free for it... yet they continue to grab him so he can either raise an arm and force the tackler's arm high or tackle him in such a manner that he can duck his head.

I'm not sure why this is beyond you. It seems blindingly obvious to me. Opposition players are aware, and they are trying to tackle him as low as possible. The problem is that you can't tackle a guy around his knees which is almost what you have to do in these situations. The entire point of the knee drop is to force what would be a waist/hip high tackle above the waist. It is hard to do the arm shrug (the main point of the manoeuvre) if the tackle is around the hips/waist, so the drop is a very important part of an effective shrug and drop. Those skilled in this art sense the tackle coming, and massively lower their body so that the place the tackler was aiming at is now more like their chest than a location that was originally their hips. From there it is much easier to lift the arm and slide the tackle up from what is now the chest to the neck. If you see some footage, the shrug and drop guys are nearly falling over they've got so low to the ground. IMO The onus shouldn't be on the tackler to assume the player will drop close to the ground while he's in the motion of tackling. If the tackler targets the hips, and ends up higher after a drop and shrug, then the consequences are all on the guy with the ball (again IMO).

 

[BF Tiger]

I'm not sure why this is beyond you. It seems blindingly obvious to me. Opposition players are aware, and they are trying to tackle him as low as possible. The problem is that you can't tackle a guy around his knees which is almost what you have to do in these situations. The entire point of the knee drop is to force what would be a waist/hip high tackle above the waist. It is hard to do the arm shrug (the main point of the manoeuvre) if the tackle is around the hips/waist, so the drop is a very important part of an effective shrug and drop. Those skilled in this art sense the tackle coming, and massively lower their body so that the place the tackler was aiming at is now more like their chest than a location that was originally their hips. From there it is much easier to lift the arm and slide the tackle up from what is now the chest to the neck. If you see some footage, the shrug and drop guys are nearly falling over they've got so low to the ground. IMO The onus shouldn't be on the tackler to assume the player will drop close to the ground while he's in the motion of tackling. If the tackler targets the hips, and ends up higher after a drop and shrug, then the consequences are all on the guy with the ball (again IMO).

Why should the guy with the ball be penalised? It doesn't happen in other sports. Correct technique is crucial when trying to dispossess the ball player in soccer, rugby and basketball and players in those sports adapt both defensively and offensively. If Selwood is "massively" lowering his body as you suggest then he has to be sacrificing something else that needs to be exploited by the tackler. I would suggest he is losing speed, momentum and agility.

 

[Mningasimisonda]

I've wondered about that in the past, they certainly don't seem to hold it against him when assessing the high contact issue, but I do wonder if his sooking is partly why he's never cracked it for a Brownlow. He is easily good enough to have won one, and I can't help but wonder if that side of him might be the reason he hasn't, but I guess there was some pretty stiff competition in some of his best years, so maybe nothing in it. I also agree his competitiveness is clearly what drives those behaviours. If he was playing for my team, I'd certainly forgive him , knowing it was the part of his personality that absolutely hated losing that was leading to that behaviour. Its a pity, because it gets used by opposition fans to pot him, sometimes unfairly (and certainly I'm guilty of doing so).



Well I guess the latter is more due to the positions they play. Almost every time I remember Selwood getting one is in your forward half, but I'm very willing to admit that is likely a highly selective memory, and the others didn't outrage me enough to stick in my head. I think all fans would be happy with a 'play on' interpretation, although I wouldn't be against calling it prior opportunity either, which means if he can successfully shrug the tackle, well done to him, he's eluded the tackle and goes on his way, if he doesn't and gets caught after shrugging instead of trying to dispose of the ball, then holding the ball would seem fair. In any case, even 'play on' would be a big step forward in interpretation , and a very easy fix to make. It still baffles me why the umpires are not using the new interpretations from last year to avoid paying these already. I don't see a lot of ambiguity on most of these on whether it is Selwood creating the contact via the shrug and drop or the tackler carelessly getting him over the shoulder. I reckon most tacklers know what to expect and ARE trying to get as low as they can when tackling him, but it is pretty hard when the knees bend and the arm goes up. You find a waste high tackle is hitting over the shoulder pretty quickly.



Yeah, I'm sure Dermie helped push the agenda on this, but it is hard to imagine this wasn't going to be a 'thing' eventually with or without a Dermie witch hunt.



I agree its not ducking. "Duckwood" is in the same basket as calling him a cheat. He's not really ducking, and he's not really cheating. They are just handy labels people are using to target someone who is doing something they don't like.



I think most people see a difference between getting the most out of a situation like taking pressure off with a deliberate behind, and continually doing an action that gets you a free kick. We've been conditioned for years to see AFL as a sport played by blokes who generally don't "simulate" like they do in soccer. Trying to milk frees is for most people on a different level to using existing rules to maximise your winning chances. Both are exploitations of the system, but I can see why people seem to take a dimmer view of free milking than other 'loophole' tactics.



He's not always doing it, if he can dish off safely he often will, he does it enough to piss people off though. You will not find stats on how many of his frees are for this kind of thing. I'm sure he gets plenty of legitimate frees because he often has his head over the ball, but it would still be interesting to see if he drops down the free kicks ladder if the AFL does finally succeed in making umpires interpret the tactic as 'play on'. He is not the only player hard at the ball, and his free kick stats are pretty remarkable.
EDIT: Actually apparently there are stats on this type of thing:
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/head-high-contact-the-stats.1136042/
Seems Selwood is a massive outlier on High Frees. Nearly three times as many as 'head over the ball' players like Sam Mitchell who often came out of the bottom of a pack with claret coming from his head.

I agree that Selwood is no dirtier than any of the truly hard nuts that play the game. Most of them are good because they play on the edge, certainly the Hawthorn players in that mould were no different. I'm sure the annoyance with his arm lifting/knee bending is driving a lot of the 'dirty' player nonsense.



Fair enough. You probably have about as much sympathy for Mitchell getting Selwood's elbow in his back as I do for Selwood getting kneed in the head when dragging Sicily down on him. As you say , Selwood is no angel, and also has form on Hawthorn players in much the same way that they have form against him.



I agree its more about making the non-Geelong fans happy. It is massively annoying as a non-Geelong supporter each time he gets a free like this. I think people would love to watch Selwood in action , and enjoy his combination of skill and hardness (when not playing their own team). Right now it is difficult to do. I can certainly see why Selwood and Geelong fans wouldn't give a s**t about that point of view. To be honest I don't lose a lot of sleep about people's negative opinions on S.Mitchell or Hodge either.

Is that a post length record?

 

[ScoobySnacks]

Deserved the week, was probably lucky to not get more.

These ones frustrate me. Sicily got off lightly because there wasn’t any serious damage to Selwood, but the intent was all malicious.

On the other hand a bloke going hard, but fairly, at the ball might knock another guy out and get 2 weeks for it simply because of the outcome of someone getting knocked out.

 

[romeohwho]

I've wondered about that in the past, they certainly don't seem to hold it against him when assessing the high contact issue, but I do wonder if his sooking is partly why he's never cracked it for a Brownlow. He is easily good enough to have won one, and I can't help but wonder if that side of him might be the reason he hasn't, but I guess there was some pretty stiff competition in some of his best years, so maybe nothing in it. I also agree his competitiveness is clearly what drives those behaviours. If he was playing for my team, I'd certainly forgive him , knowing it was the part of his personality that absolutely hated losing that was leading to that behaviour. Its a pity, because it gets used by opposition fans to pot him, sometimes unfairly (and certainly I'm guilty of doing so).



Well I guess the latter is more due to the positions they play. Almost every time I remember Selwood getting one is in your forward half, but I'm very willing to admit that is likely a highly selective memory, and the others didn't outrage me enough to stick in my head. I think all fans would be happy with a 'play on' interpretation, although I wouldn't be against calling it prior opportunity either, which means if he can successfully shrug the tackle, well done to him, he's eluded the tackle and goes on his way, if he doesn't and gets caught after shrugging instead of trying to dispose of the ball, then holding the ball would seem fair. In any case, even 'play on' would be a big step forward in interpretation , and a very easy fix to make. It still baffles me why the umpires are not using the new interpretations from last year to avoid paying these already. I don't see a lot of ambiguity on most of these on whether it is Selwood creating the contact via the shrug and drop or the tackler carelessly getting him over the shoulder. I reckon most tacklers know what to expect and ARE trying to get as low as they can when tackling him, but it is pretty hard when the knees bend and the arm goes up. You find a waste high tackle is hitting over the shoulder pretty quickly.



Yeah, I'm sure Dermie helped push the agenda on this, but it is hard to imagine this wasn't going to be a 'thing' eventually with or without a Dermie witch hunt.



I agree its not ducking. "Duckwood" is in the same basket as calling him a cheat. He's not really ducking, and he's not really cheating. They are just handy labels people are using to target someone who is doing something they don't like.



I think most people see a difference between getting the most out of a situation like taking pressure off with a deliberate behind, and continually doing an action that gets you a free kick. We've been conditioned for years to see AFL as a sport played by blokes who generally don't "simulate" like they do in soccer. Trying to milk frees is for most people on a different level to using existing rules to maximise your winning chances. Both are exploitations of the system, but I can see why people seem to take a dimmer view of free milking than other 'loophole' tactics.



He's not always doing it, if he can dish off safely he often will, he does it enough to piss people off though. You will not find stats on how many of his frees are for this kind of thing. I'm sure he gets plenty of legitimate frees because he often has his head over the ball, but it would still be interesting to see if he drops down the free kicks ladder if the AFL does finally succeed in making umpires interpret the tactic as 'play on'. He is not the only player hard at the ball, and his free kick stats are pretty remarkable.
EDIT: Actually apparently there are stats on this type of thing:
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/head-high-contact-the-stats.1136042/
Seems Selwood is a massive outlier on High Frees. Nearly three times as many as 'head over the ball' players like Sam Mitchell who often came out of the bottom of a pack with claret coming from his head.

I agree that Selwood is no dirtier than any of the truly hard nuts that play the game. Most of them are good because they play on the edge, certainly the Hawthorn players in that mould were no different. I'm sure the annoyance with his arm lifting/knee bending is driving a lot of the 'dirty' player nonsense.



Fair enough. You probably have about as much sympathy for Mitchell getting Selwood's elbow in his back as I do for Selwood getting kneed in the head when dragging Sicily down on him. As you say , Selwood is no angel, and also has form on Hawthorn players in much the same way that they have form against him.



I agree its more about making the non-Geelong fans happy. It is massively annoying as a non-Geelong supporter each time he gets a free like this. I think people would love to watch Selwood in action , and enjoy his combination of skill and hardness (when not playing their own team). Right now it is difficult to do. I can certainly see why Selwood and Geelong fans wouldn't give a s**t about that point of view. To be honest I don't lose a lot of sleep about people's negative opinions on S.Mitchell or Hodge either.

Yep-good effort and we are probably in agreement on most of this. Thanks for the civilised chat!

 

[telsor]

Deserved the week, was probably lucky to not get more.

These ones frustrate me. Sicily got off lightly because there wasn’t any serious damage to Selwood, but the intent was all malicious.

On the other hand a bloke going hard, but fairly, at the ball might knock another guy out and get 2 weeks for it simply because of the outcome of someone getting knocked out.

Agreed. Not a new opinion (for me or others), but the result matters way too much with these things.

Of course, at the other extreme, an off the ball jumper punch would have players rubbed out for a month...

The current system seems far too dependent on the 'check a box' approach, and things like intent are far too difficult to categorize in such a way, so we only have 'careless' and 'intentional'.

They need to work out a far better balance here.

 

[Whiskers]

Unbelievable the uproar about this ... Selwood who is the best cheap shot artist in the league holds a player by both legs who is trying to get away from him and then expects him not to give him one back .

Selwood has peak form in dropping knees in or pushing elbows into faces , flat out deserves to get as much as he gives .

Why is it an uproar when he cops it but he is courageous when he gives it .

Dog of a player .

Calm your farm buddy. Take out your hatred for Selwood and look at the incident.
Drops his knee into his head, 1st one doesn’t worry me so much but than he goes and does it even more deliberately.

An intentional knee to the head. You can’t get any more damning than that.
Intentional
Knee
Head

It’s got nothing to do with who is involved.
Your hate is pathetic!

 

[MinerBoy]

classic pathetic hawks mentality. when your players gets sniped its world ending. remember the melt down you had over lloyd on sewell. but when you do it you cheer. Not the first time selwood has been on the ground and a hawks player has jumped on his head with a knee. Although selwood wasnt unconscious this time so i suppose you thinks that fair.

Every time we play your club you guys snipe our best players. You went after danger again yesterday too and forced him to spend most of the game out of the middle again. Most pathetic club in the afl.

Jesus this post needs a full orchestra of violins.

Level of dramatisation = A+

 

[Xtreme]

Sicily was lucky it wasn't Dangerfield, he'd be suspended for as long as the Essendon saga went for!!

Sicily will learn from the mistake and become a better player.

classic pathetic hawks mentality. when your players gets sniped its world ending. remember the melt down you had over lloyd on sewell. but when you do it you cheer. Not the first time selwood has been on the ground and a hawks player has jumped on his head with a knee. Although selwood wasnt unconscious this time so i suppose you thinks that fair.

Every time we play your club you guys snipe our best players. You went after danger again yesterday too and forced him to spend most of the game out of the middle again. Most pathetic club in the afl.

Top shelf melt

Would read again!

 

[hk89]

Is that a post length record?

You are obviously not familiar with my body of work. That was a short summary post.

 

[hk89]

Why should the guy with the ball be penalised? It doesn't happen in other sports.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. There are lots of situations where 'the guy with the ball' is penalised. You never heard of the holding the ball rule?

Correct technique is crucial when trying to dispossess the ball player in soccer

When the guy with the ball in soccer deliberately falls over the leg of a tackler the referee (if he notices) isn't rewarding him.

If Selwood is "massively" lowering his body as you suggest then he has to be sacrificing something else that needs to be exploited by the tackler.

If drop and shrug was deemed prior opportunity, the tackler would be getting rewarded in many of these situations.

 

[Seeds]

Sicily was lucky it wasn't Dangerfield, he'd be suspended for as long as the Essendon saga went for!!

Sicily will learn from the mistake and become a better player.




Top shelf melt

Would read again!

what? roughhead didnt event get cited for breaking Dangers ribs last year in a clear deliberate act. you guys tried to take our danger again yesterday and largely succeeded given we were forced to rest him up forward for most of the game due to the hit to his head. Again not even cited.

 

[ziad]

Agreed. Not a new opinion (for me or others), but the result matters way too much with these things.

Of course, at the other extreme, an off the ball jumper punch would have players rubbed out for a month...

The current system seems far too dependent on the 'check a box' approach, and things like intent are far too difficult to categorize in such a way, so we only have 'careless' and 'intentional'.

They need to work out a far better balance here.

there should be box- Dog Act
If yes 3 weeks as a start point

 

[Gavin Excell]

Sicily was lucky it wasn't Dangerfield, he'd be suspended for as long as the Essendon saga went for!!

Sicily will learn from the mistake and become a better player.




Top shelf melt

Would read again!

He was fired up from the first minute Sicily.

Nothing wrong with that and the aggression can set the tone.

However can easily go overboard. Wonder if more clubs will take the Carlton approach and try and get him to respond stupidly?

 

[Xtreme]

He was fired up from the first minute Sicily.

Nothing wrong with that and the aggression can set the tone.

However can easily go overboard. Wonder if more clubs will take the Carlton approach and try and get him to respond stupidly?

That's what I have been expecting, other teams should get under his skin (it helps Hawthorn out too if he's fired up but doesn't give away free kicks he's an even more dangerous weapon).

 

[HairyO]

So he accepted the ban. Can assume that is Clarko punishing him because of him losing focus - I doubt Clarko was too concerned for Selwood's wellbeing.

Only downside to contesting would have been a $10k fine to the club.