News Jarrod Witts appointed Co-Captain at Gold Coast

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35Daicos

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Wish him well but honestly I think that Witts could end up being the answer for the trivia question "Who was the last captain of the Gold Coast Suns?"
I don't really understand why you would think this. Gold Coast have obviously had their struggles, but the AFL won't simply let them disappear. They will always want two teams in Queensland, so GC is quite important from a strategic point of view. That club has made plenty of mistakes, but hopefully it's on the right track now. They certainly blew the chance they had when starting up (to be a superpower within a few years), but for the sake of the game I hope things are looking better now.
 

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Miller as a player is a vanilla midfielder. He'll win it. Tackle. No real hurt factor/weapons, no real second position, so he's not a star and wasn't among my top 20 rated prospects from his draft in my recent hindsight piece of the 2014 draft. He's more just a capable footballer who will have a long career and is highly rated internally for his leadership qualities.

GC need to be all about developing their youth and they need to find a way to do it because they've failed to date.

If Lukosius and Rankine aren't among the best players in the competition 5-6 years from now, the blame is squarely on Gold Coast. Just as it is with David Swallow, Jack Martin and Jaeger O'Meara not even being in the conversation for the competition's best - with O'Meara the only one where you can look at his circumstance and give them a pass.

Others who will be a good guide on Gold Coast's development include Max King, Peter Wright, Ben Ainsworth, Will Brodie, Jack Bowes, Charlie Ballard and Brayden Crossley. Of those other than Ballard and Crossley, they were all seen as sure stars on being drafted and for me in looking at Ballard and Crossley's first seasons, they're two others who for mine could in the right environmental also be stars. If when they're fully developed players we're looking at a combination of these as only average footballers or like they're no big deal, it will tell us Gold Coast have made no progress as player developers.
Ben King plays for Suns not Max King
 

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Alas, after a long week I'm not less prone to the occasional brain fart than the next person. Brain thinks you do one thing correctly and does another completely.
Happens.

Speaking of...

Your re-doing Of De Goey’s draft with Mr De Goey still sitting in 5th place. :eek:
Tsk tsk :p:p

Your arguments are validly argued and a good viewpoint; with the 4 higher placed:

1. Harris Andrews
2. Jake Lever
3. Christian Petracca
4. Isaac Heeney
5. Jordan De Goey

I’m certainly biased (happily so in this instance) with ranking De Goey as the best of his year (so far and projecting forward, my understanding of your criteria).

He’s a dynamic match winner. He punishes on the scoreboard and hurts opposition strategy. That simple.
I use the grand final, he wasn’t the best player, but without his dynamic we don’t get close. He’s the difference maker.

I’d be wary of defenders, as good as they may be of earning top spot. Petracca very good, he’s going to have an interesting career. Heeney also high level talent.

But my simple feeling is, would I swap De Goey for any of the 4 listed? Not a chance from my perspective.
He’s a difference maker.

(I actually project him to be a player that will enter my best Collingwood teams I like doing.)

Folks the link to find drafts reviewed, re-done is through the almanac KM does, just go to any of his posts and tap onto links there.
It’s a great read and a super fun excercise.
 

Knightmare

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Happens.

Speaking of...

Your re-doing Of De Goey’s draft with Mr De Goey still sitting in 5th place. :eek:
Tsk tsk :p:p

Your arguments are validly argued and a good viewpoint; with the 4 higher placed:

1. Harris Andrews
2. Jake Lever
3. Christian Petracca
4. Isaac Heeney
5. Jordan De Goey

I’m certainly biased (happily so in this instance) with ranking De Goey as the best of his year (so far and projecting forward, my understanding of your criteria).

He’s a dynamic match winner. He punishes on the scoreboard and hurts opposition strategy. That simple.
I use the grand final, he wasn’t the best player, but without his dynamic we don’t get close. He’s the difference maker.

I’d be wary of defenders, as good as they may be of earning top spot. Petracca very good, he’s going to have an interesting career. Heeney also high level talent.

But my simple feeling is, would I swap De Goey for any of the 4 listed? Not a chance from my perspective.
He’s a difference maker.

(I actually project him to be a player that will enter my best Collingwood teams I like doing.)

Folks the link to find drafts reviewed, re-done is through the almanac KM does, just go to any of his posts and tap onto links there.
It’s a great read and a super fun excercise.
It's fun for the debate elements.

What I've found most interesting based on my feedback on social with all these re-done drafts is people focus almost exclusively on what has been done already but have very little understanding particularly with talls relating to projecting ahead and understanding when players of different heights tend to develop. Not understanding that year 4 is roughly the year most KPPs are finally developed players and before then they're not going to be performing as well as the best midfielders. Same goes with ruckmen with few realising that they're other than Grundy and the rare few only coming into their own at 25.

Andrews/Lever I like going off the theory of scarcity where quality KPPs and ruckmen are incredibly hard to find relative to other positions and if you get quality, it saves you getting depth which with KPPs and rucks is most wasteful than other positions because they tend to have less capacity to play other positions. I regard them the two best young key defenders in the comp. Of the pair, Lever is the better interceptor, but Andrews for being a better stopper earlier with Lever only last year for the first time being a capable stopper + Andrews being the extra tall I slightly favour. But you can toss a coin and you'd love to have either.

I can't make claims any of the others are best in the competition or for their age group in any position. So that puts everyone else behind those two.

That places the Petracca/Heeney/De Goey grouping as those real impact players next. Points go against De Goey for a slower start and discipline and off-field problems. His start of his career has also been the slowest of the three on performance only prior to 2018 showing glimpses while Petracca/Heeney were already seriously good players. As a midfielder, with De Goey playing mostly forward, he's still the least proven and gets further deductions on that basis. So he's for now behind those others, but with more seasons like or potentially even exceeding his 2018 play, he has time to move past Petracca/Heeney.

Next is separating Petracca/Heeney. Most commentators will favour Heeney. He's the more proven midfielders and more productive. I also feel his 2019 will be the better and more productive of the two and in that regard he'll I expect create separation. Make me choose. Give me Petracca. His contested ball winning and one-on-one work i50 is elite (only Danger in 2018 was better) and he'll hit the scoreboard more heavily. He's also a much more damaging kick than Heeney who still needs to become more reliable by foot.

All the links to my 2013-2016 redone top 20s are in my Draft Almanac Thread for 2019 with the 2017 draft re-done coming Monday or Tuesday. My placement of Stephenson will no doubt cause some discussion/debate. His heart is clearly not a problem playing 26/26 games and winning the Rising Star. So they're all ticks. But is he 2017s best?
 
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It's fun for the debate elements.

What I've found most interesting based on my feedback on social with all these re-done drafts is people focus almost exclusively on what has been done already but have very little understanding particularly with talls relating to projecting ahead and understanding when players of different heights tend to develop. Not understanding that year 4 is roughly the year most KPPs are finally developed players and before then they're not going to be performing as well as the best midfielders. Same goes with ruckmen with few realising that they're other than Grundy and the rare few only coming into their own at 25.

Andrews/Lever I like going off the theory of scarcity where quality KPPs and ruckmen are incredibly hard to find relative to other positions and if you get quality, it saves you getting depth which with KPPs and rucks is most wasteful than other positions because they tend to have less capacity to play other positions. I regard them the two best young key defenders in the comp. Of the pair, Lever is the better interceptor, but Andrews for being a better stopper earlier with Lever only last year for the first time being a capable stopper + Andrews being the extra tall I slightly favour. But you can toss a coin and you'd love to have either.

I can't make claims any of the others are best in the competition or for their age group in any position. So that puts everyone else behind those two.

That places the Petracca/Heeney/De Goey grouping as those real impact players next. Points go against De Goey for a slower start and discipline and off-field problems. His start of his career has also been the slowest of the three on performance only prior to 2018 showing glimpses while Petracca/Heeney were already seriously good players. As a midfielder, with De Goey playing mostly forward, he's still the least proven and gets further deductions on that basis. So he's for now behind those others, but with more seasons like or potentially even exceeding his 2018 play, he has time to move past Petracca/Heeney.

Next is separating Petracca/Heeney. Most commentators will favour Heeney. He's the more proven midfielders and more productive. I also feel his 2019 will be the better and more productive of the two and in that regard he'll I expect create separation. Make me choose. Give me Petracca. His contested ball winning and one-on-one work i50 is elite (only Danger in 2018 was better) and he'll hit the scoreboard more heavily. He's also a much more damaging kick than Heeney who still needs to become more reliable by foot.

All the links to my 2013-2016 redone top 20s are in my Draft Almanac Thread for 2019 with the 2017 draft re-done coming Monday or Tuesday. My placement of Stephenson will no doubt cause some discussion/debate. His heart is clearly not a problem playing 26/26 games and winning the Rising Star. So they're all ticks. But is he 2017s best?
I do enjoy these articles you do, great discussion.
And to be fair, you rate players according to your views as opposed as goingbthe easier route of following the latest trend.
Great work.
 
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Yep. Made captain on top of a 5 year deal. Clearly rated highly by Dew & co, was rated by all at our club, and rated by Eade, but Gubby’s mini rampage meant that the Suns ran away laughing.
That may very well be the case, but if we still kept Witts, he’d be a top line reserves player.

We still should have got more for him.
 

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I don't really understand why you would think this. Gold Coast have obviously had their struggles, but the AFL won't simply let them disappear. They will always want two teams in Queensland, so GC is quite important from a strategic point of view. That club has made plenty of mistakes, but hopefully it's on the right track now. They certainly blew the chance they had when starting up (to be a superpower within a few years), but for the sake of the game I hope things are looking better now.
I don't think that footy will ever work on the Gold Coast in it's current format. The only way it could have worked was if the AFL relocated a Victorian club and fostered the goodwill of Southport. They didn't do either despite the obvious failings of Brisbane as a startup club. Gold Coast is full of expats who already have an allegiance to a club or aren't interested in AFL. My sister is an ex Victorian living on the coast and she summed it up well "If the weather is good, there are plenty of better things to do than go to the footy."

Put simply, people don't want to watch ball sports on the Gold Coast and never have. It won't matter what success GC have, the AFL will always have to prop them up and they have already shown that they will abandon them for the next new club.
 

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I don't think that footy will ever work on the Gold Coast in it's current format. The only way it could have worked was if the AFL relocated a Victorian club and fostered the goodwill of Southport. They didn't do either despite the obvious failings of Brisbane as a startup club. Gold Coast is full of expats who already have an allegiance to a club or aren't interested in AFL. My sister is an ex Victorian living on the coast and she summed it up well "If the weather is good, there are plenty of better things to do than go to the footy."

Put simply, people don't want to watch ball sports on the Gold Coast and never have. It won't matter what success GC have, the AFL will always have to prop them up and they have already shown that they will abandon them for the next new club.
How have they shown they will abandon them for the next new club?

Footy is already working on the GC, the Suns average 13.5k fans despite being anchored to the bottom of the ladder with a constant player exodus. 13k average home ground seems low compared to big Vic clubs, but compared to most sports or leagues around the world its good... The suns have bigger crowds than half the NRL and 90% of the A League.
 

35Daicos

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I don't think that footy will ever work on the Gold Coast in it's current format. The only way it could have worked was if the AFL relocated a Victorian club and fostered the goodwill of Southport. They didn't do either despite the obvious failings of Brisbane as a startup club. Gold Coast is full of expats who already have an allegiance to a club or aren't interested in AFL. My sister is an ex Victorian living on the coast and she summed it up well "If the weather is good, there are plenty of better things to do than go to the footy."

Put simply, people don't want to watch ball sports on the Gold Coast and never have. It won't matter what success GC have, the AFL will always have to prop them up and they have already shown that they will abandon them for the next new club.
The Gold Coast has certainly been a graveyard for national sporting teams over the years, and the fact that so many expats live there has most likely been a contributing factor. The AFL will not simply abandon this club. Even if it is necessary to prop them up forever then it will have to be done. The competition is absolutely thriving, and the AFL can certainly afford it.

As Kappa has pointed out, Gold Coast does quite reasonably in terms of home crowds, especially considering how poor the team has been for the majority of it's existence. As far as I know they have a very good stadium deal, so when they start getting results they should be in quite reasonable shape.

The competition was obviously very different back in the first half of the last century, and clubs could probably have paid the bills just by running the occasional chook raffle, but (the now mighty) Hawthorn took until their 33rd season before they played finals for the first time! I'm sure Gold Coast fans and the AFL are very keen for them to start winning games and moving up the ladder soon. In the meantime a bit of patience is needed, but I'm sure they'll get it right onfield and off-field one of these days, and start paying their way quite nicely.
 

sr36

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It's fun for the debate elements.

What I've found most interesting based on my feedback on social with all these re-done drafts is people focus almost exclusively on what has been done already ...

...

That places the Petracca/Heeney/De Goey grouping as those real impact players next. Points go against De Goey for a slower start and discipline and off-field problems. His start of his career has also been the slowest of the three on performance only prior to 2018 showing glimpses while Petracca/Heeney were already seriously good players. As a midfielder, with De Goey playing mostly forward, he's still the least proven and gets further deductions on that basis. So he's for now behind those others, but with more seasons like or potentially even exceeding his 2018 play, he has time to move past Petracca/Heeney.
I can't say I agree with your opinion, but your reasoning seems really contradictory to me.
 

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Really with Witts the missed opportunity (from our beneficial perspective) was him not being part of the Treloar trade.

But for reasons pointed out previously, it was not to be.
 

Knightmare

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I can't say I agree with your opinion, but your reasoning seems really contradictory to me.
Petracca/Heeney I'm assuming you're referring to?

If so Heeney creating separation from the perspective that I see the volume of his numbers this year specifically taking another step (due to greater midfield opportunity) while Petracca's numbers I see remaining much the same this year as Melbourne's midfield is so loaded he's not going to get as many minutes through there. One playing finding more of the ball than another isn't the only criteria in a who is better argument. Petracca being the more powerful 1v1, contested ball winner, more damaging and consistent ball user and having greater capacity to provide scoreboard impact on an even higher level is my choice. I also long term see him developing the endurance and midfield craft later.
 

sr36

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Petracca/Heeney I'm assuming you're referring to?

If so Heeney creating separation from the perspective that I see the volume of his numbers this year specifically taking another step (due to greater midfield opportunity) while Petracca's numbers I see remaining much the same this year as Melbourne's midfield is so loaded he's not going to get as many minutes through there. One playing finding more of the ball than another isn't the only criteria in a who is better argument. Petracca being the more powerful 1v1, contested ball winner, more damaging and consistent ball user and having greater capacity to provide scoreboard impact on an even higher level is my choice. I also long term see him developing the endurance and midfield craft later.
I meant that you opened by being critical of people focussing too much on what has been done already and not projecting enough into the future and then your reasoning for selecting Petracca and Heeney over Degoey is that Degoey made a slower start to his AFL career.
 

Knightmare

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I meant that you opened by being critical of people focussing too much on what has been done already and not projecting enough into the future and then your reasoning for selecting Petracca and Heeney over Degoey is that Degoey made a slower start to his AFL career.
It's a career projection and to be clearer I project both Petracca and Heeney to have better careers. They all play similar positions/roles as fwd/mids or mid/fwds or some variety. They're not KPPs or rucks, so unlike with those positions where players come good a lot later and quality options are of greater scarcity it's an apples with apples comparison.

Certainly in the opening portion De Goey is the clearly behind Petracca and Heeney to date on performance with only the one good year v several from Petracca and Heeney each. And total quantity of good seasons does come into that who has had the best career discussion. As a character De Goey has grown substantially and seems much more interested in furthering his football and has also matured substantially off the field and seems to have his personal life on track. From here on in I expect a much more comparable level of quality of performance but on performance to date Petracca/Heeney/De Goey I'd pick on performance in that order. De Goey even in 2018 which is by far his best season doesn't find as much of the ball as Petracca/Heeney, but those guys like De Goey both are high impact per possession players and more proven as midfielders - through De Goey has shown glimpses through there and I feel as Heeney and Petracca both can, could also impact games through there.

I wouldn't hate on anyone placing them in any particular order as it's a judgement call. But I'm seeing Petracca as a stronger, more powerful De Goey with a stronger contested side to his game with just as heavy impact forward of centre but greater midfield capacities and more of the ball without having any less impact per possession. Heeney is another who is damaging as a forward (only ever so slightly less than De Goey for mine but a difference maker when forward none the less) but a much higher production player and the best midfielder of the group at this stage. To date and long term, De Goey is on my list of those three, my third choice. Though as with any of this quality, you'd love to have any of them, as they're all stars of the game already.
 

sr36

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It's a career projection and to be clearer I project both Petracca and Heeney to have better careers. They all play similar positions/roles as fwd/mids or mid/fwds or some variety. They're not KPPs or rucks, so unlike with those positions where players come good a lot later and quality options are of greater scarcity it's an apples with apples comparison.

Certainly in the opening portion De Goey is the clearly behind Petracca and Heeney to date on performance with only the one good year v several from Petracca and Heeney each. And total quantity of good seasons does come into that who has had the best career discussion. As a character De Goey has grown substantially and seems much more interested in furthering his football and has also matured substantially off the field and seems to have his personal life on track. From here on in I expect a much more comparable level of quality of performance but on performance to date Petracca/Heeney/De Goey I'd pick on performance in that order. De Goey even in 2018 which is by far his best season doesn't find as much of the ball as Petracca/Heeney, but those guys like De Goey both are high impact per possession players and more proven as midfielders - through De Goey has shown glimpses through there and I feel as Heeney and Petracca both can, could also impact games through there.

I wouldn't hate on anyone placing them in any particular order as it's a judgement call. But I'm seeing Petracca as a stronger, more powerful De Goey with a stronger contested side to his game with just as heavy impact forward of centre but greater midfield capacities and more of the ball without having any less impact per possession. Heeney is another who is damaging as a forward (only ever so slightly less than De Goey for mine but a difference maker when forward none the less) but a much higher production player and the best midfielder of the group at this stage. To date and long term, De Goey is on my list of those three, my third choice. Though as with any of this quality, you'd love to have any of them, as they're all stars of the game already.
Better explanation. Still disagree with it. To me, Degoeys combination of power, pace, agility, anticipation and skill make him the best forward prospect since Franklin.
 
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Better explanation. Still disagree with it. To me, Degoeys combination of power, pace, agility, anticipation and skill make him the best forward prospect since Franklin.
Match winner.
That’s that special X factor that transcends mere mortals.

De Goey has it. To me it’s that simple.
 

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Better explanation. Still disagree with it. To me, Degoeys combination of power, pace, agility, anticipation and skill make him the best forward prospect since Franklin.
That's a massive wrap! I can't say I see De Goey anything nearly like that as reflected by my ranking. He's more like a younger, slightly better Josh Caddy and that's hardly a knock with Caddy dominating in the same way and providing comparable scoreboard impact and elite in his own right based on 2018 play.

I see Petracca having the same ingredients as a forward though being an even more souped up version. I don't love that he has been used so much across half-forward. Play him deep forward and for stints on the ball and I see him as a better version of De Goey in the same role. He has comparable power/pace/agility/anticipation but has even more damaging skills, is an even stronger ground ball winner, impossible to move/tackle/bring to ground with greater strength through the legs and core, even stronger again 1v1 and leaping up at the ball for marks. Then as a mid again has the better contested side to his game.

I can't say since Franklin I've seen a second special forward like that. I've had hopes for Jeremy Cameron and Jesse Hogan at various stages, but neither are that. Lukosius if Gold Coast aren't negligent in their player development is that only Franklin/N.Riewoldt/Pavlich/J.Brown class of forward.

In terms of those medium forwards who play as essentially key forwards. Dangerfield/D.Martin/Rayner/Petracca/De Goey/Caddy are all special in the same way as forwards and all belong for mine in the same category as medium sizers who are arguably as effective as any key forward going around when used as key targets i50 with how powerful they are 1v1 and such dominant targets close to goal. Of those, I see Rayner as being likely on career the 5th best, with 3-5 of those his rang.e
 

sr36

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That's a massive wrap! I can't say I see De Goey anything nearly like that as reflected by my ranking. He's more like a younger, slightly better Josh Caddy and that's hardly a knock with Caddy dominating in the same way and providing comparable scoreboard impact and elite in his own right based on 2018 play.

I see Petracca having the same ingredients as a forward though being an even more souped up version. I don't love that he has been used so much across half-forward. Play him deep forward and for stints on the ball and I see him as a better version of De Goey in the same role. He has comparable power/pace/agility/anticipation but has even more damaging skills, is an even stronger ground ball winner, impossible to move/tackle/bring to ground with greater strength through the legs and core, even stronger again 1v1 and leaping up at the ball for marks. Then as a mid again has the better contested side to his game.

I can't say since Franklin I've seen a second special forward like that. I've had hopes for Jeremy Cameron and Jesse Hogan at various stages, but neither are that. Lukosius if Gold Coast aren't negligent in their player development is that only Franklin/N.Riewoldt/Pavlich/J.Brown class of forward.

In terms of those medium forwards who play as essentially key forwards. Dangerfield/D.Martin/Rayner/Petracca/De Goey/Caddy are all special in the same way as forwards and all belong for mine in the same category as medium sizers who are arguably as effective as any key forward going around when used as key targets i50 with how powerful they are 1v1 and such dominant targets close to goal. Of those, I see Rayner as being likely on career the 5th best, with 3-5 of those his rang.e
Time will tell, but injuries aside, my money is on Degoey. I expect him to have a long run of winning or being high up in Coleman medals. His willingness to hit a contest at full pace, skill to collect, agility to change direction at full pace, combined with his strength to break tackles makes him capable of creating space like few that I've seen.

Yep, I've got massive wraps on him. He reminds me of Gary Ablett Senior in his full forward phase at the end of his career once he had stopped leaping and instead played the percentages of holding his ground. That's what he should be aiming for.
 

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Petraka stikes me a a player who will have a good career but always tease by not quite getting to where his aparent talent says he should. That's largely because the talent in the head isn't so visable and for mine in his case isn't apparent. I don't think he thinks through a game or even a play until it arrives. I also don;t think he plays a whole game. Maybe maturity, experience and coaching will see that become an incorrect asessment. I would have said the same of DeGoey this time last year but he may just have worked it out. Talent wise I can't put Petraka ahead. Putting it on the field from here on in my leaning is toward DeGoey.

Brereton describes deGoey as KP Power forward becasue of the way he marks on a hard lead or in a contest but with the ability to turn back toward goal. Petraka isn't as good as DeGoey in the air. I think they'd end up similar quality as pure midfielders.
 

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