Review Jason McCartney's performance as list manager - A little from Column A and a little from Column B

[The Inbetweener]

Both offers from Essendon were pretty awful, but that's a reflection of the dynamics at play. Clearly Stringer wasn't coming back. If we could have got Schache for a future second and Crozier for 47, obviously we would be much better off taking 11+47 for JS+26. But that's making two assumptions and using the benefit of hindsight. If a future 2nd didn't do it for Schache for instance, we would have had no other currency and missed out. OR, we would have had to do a deal like 11 for Schache+20ish.

GWS pipped us to the post with a better deal for pick 11. I rate Devon Smith more than most, but Essendon would have been crazy not to take it. I would have done that deal with pick 9 if we'd had the list spots to justify getting that many second rounders. I don't begrudge J-Mac and co for holding on.

Our non-decision on the 11/47/26 deal is understandable. If we had nothing else in the works, cutting our losses early in trade period would have made sense. But we obviously had Schache in play and felt we could do better. Ehh, you win some you lose some. Acceptable risk to take IMO.

I hope I’m wrong but Schache seemed to be a very much last minute thing given we only did the medical and psych stuff on the Wednesday night. So I’m not sure if it was all part of some big plan

 

[TedDougChris]

I hope I’m wrong but Schache seemed to be a very much last minute thing given we only did the medical and psych stuff on the Wednesday night. So I’m not sure if it was all part of some big plan

Depends on if we thought we could get it done or not. If Brisbane said an earlier pick or nothing, might have been no point in medical until they said '20-odd will be ok if you can give a little extra '

 

[Mofra]

Interesting, I heard Gordon talk today and he credited all of our trade maneuverings to Grant. He made no mention of McCartney at all.

Oversight or deliberate?

Grant is our board member that the football department answer to so he has final sign off.

 

[goodcop badcop]

I'm not convinced putting Dalrymple in charge of the list management area is a good move. He's very good at talent identification that's true, but what is he like at negotiating? The other thing to consider is if we give him more responsibility, our drafting could suffer. We have one the smallest recruiting team in the AFL already apparently.

 

[TiAn_]

Yep, assuming Brisbane would have been equally happy with next year's second, we cost ourselves 5 spots down the draft order.

Made a few mistakes but only on hindsight. There wasn't a single post on here upset we knocked back the bombers first offer.

I wouldn’t assume that, remember they needed points for Ballenden who’s touted as a late first/early second pick.

Plausible that Brisbane wanted 25 over our second next year.

 

[Ozil]

He certainly could have handled Stringer's departure more delicately but expecting 50 goals a season of Schache - while I'm sure he'll be capable of that in time - to break even is a bit disingenuous.

Stringer broke that mark once in five years and he never presented the structural value that Schache might, as explosive as he was on the deck in our swirling garbage vortex of a forward line.

If Josh's presence allows us to better organise that eternal dumpster fire and the whole disposition of our side isn't being poisoned by wasteful entries, we're doing well.

That's not to suggest Stringer was negative structurally, but we can anchor a new setup around a contested marking forward with a big tank.

Suspect expectations will come back to earth once he's getting minutes in the hoops, but like Tom Boyd we should be aware of what he can do for us even this early.

To be frank it's ridiculous to even compare the value or output of the two, but I suppose it's going to go down that way given we kicked Jake to the curb while Schache's recruitment has been whitewashed as a face-saving exercise despite our dwindling key forward stocks.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I hope I’m wrong but Schache seemed to be a very much last minute thing given we only did the medical and psych stuff on the Wednesday night. So I’m not sure if it was all part of some big plan

Someone ITK said we were interested in him since about halfway through the year. Interest may have cooled when he signed the new contract but revived when he later said he wanted to leave.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Solution is to promote Dal to some "head of list management and recruiting" role, and have a list manager and head recruiter under Dal, even though Dal is in charge of both people. Works for other clubs.

 

[Woof]

Grant is our board member that the football department answer to so he has final sign off.

He’s an executive, with a line to Matthew Croft on the board. Board members are voluntary, Grant is a paid exec working full time for the club.

 

[TiAn_]

He certainly could have handled Stringer's departure more delicately but expecting 50 goals a season of Schache - while I'm sure he'll be capable of that in time - to break even is a bit disingenuous.

Stringer broke that mark once in five years and he never presented the structural value that Schache might, as explosive as he was on the deck in our swirling garbage vortex of a forward line.

If Josh's presence allows us to better organise that eternal dumpster fire and the whole disposition of our side isn't being poisoned by wasteful entries, we're doing well.

That's not to suggest Stringer was negative structurally, but we can anchor a new setup around a contested marking forward with a big tank.

Suspect expectations will come back to earth once he's getting minutes in the hoops, but like Tom Boyd we should be aware of what he can do for us even this early.

To be frank it's ridiculous to even compare the value or output of the two, but I suppose it's going to go down that way given we kicked Jake to the curb while Schache's recruitment has been whitewashed as a face-saving exercise despite our dwindling key forward stocks.

I think the benefit of Boyd & Schache is that we can surround them with smaller player without sacrificing easy intercept marks.

I imagine he’ll be given a chance to find his feet in the VFL, with Red starting the year at FF.

 

[True Dog]

I'm not convinced putting Dalrymple in charge of the list management area is a good move. He's very good at talent identification that's true, but what is he like at negotiating? The other thing to consider is if we give him more responsibility, our drafting could suffer. We have one the smallest recruiting team in the AFL already apparently.

Our new CEO will have some timely input into this, he'll know the movers and shakers.....

 

[Doggy]

I think the benefit of Boyd & Schache is that we can surround them with smaller player without sacrificing easy intercept marks.

I imagine he’ll be given a chance to find his feet in the VFL, with Red starting the year at FF.

Believe Red misses round 1 through suspension

 

[Doggy]

Someone ITK said we were interested in him since about halfway through the year. Interest may have cooled when he signed the new contract but revived when he later said he wanted to leave.

Dogs were one club confident he was still gettable despite signing on

 

[bontshow]

These are the trade deals that McCartney has negotiated on our behalf:

A lot of your ratings seem to ignore the context of the trades. You've got 5 thumbs downs in there, 4 of which are for players that wanted out and the other was the pick swap required to get Schache in

The focus needs to be on player retention across the club, not our negotiating at the trade table. It's not Jason McCartney's fault he had damaged goods to trade with Stringer, but it is his good work that meant Schache came to us and we got him cheaply

I'd be more critical over the Crameri trade than the others, which you gave a thumbs up to

 

[Spectre]

Both offers from Essendon were pretty awful, but that's a reflection of the dynamics at play. Clearly Stringer wasn't coming back. If we could have got Schache for a future second and Crozier for 47, obviously we would be much better off taking 11+47 for JS+26. But that's making two assumptions and using the benefit of hindsight. If a future 2nd didn't do it for Schache for instance, we would have had no other currency and missed out. OR, we would have had to do a deal like 11 for Schache+20ish.

GWS pipped us to the post with a better deal for pick 11. I rate Devon Smith more than most, but Essendon would have been crazy not to take it. I would have done that deal with pick 9 if we'd had the list spots to justify getting that many second rounders. I don't begrudge J-Mac and co for holding on.

Our non-decision on the 11/47/26 deal is understandable. If we had nothing else in the works, cutting our losses early in trade period would have made sense. But we obviously had Schache in play and felt we could do better. Ehh, you win some you lose some. Acceptable risk to take IMO.

Don't mind the initial non-decision, we might have been hoping for something better, but that mentality only works if Stringer was ever actually coming back. The fact that 1) it appears that line was BS all along, 2) despite that, Jmac still decided to play chicken with a Dodo, and 3) we didn't accept the subsequent offer with a decent amount of time to do something about it to me speaks of indecision, poor communication and an inability to read the room - not the best of qualities for a chief negotiator!

I hope I’m wrong but Schache seemed to be a very much last minute thing given we only did the medical and psych stuff on the Wednesday night. So I’m not sure if it was all part of some big plan

Exactly what I'm worried about, given my read on Jmac's capabilities. Also hope I'm wrong.

He certainly could have handled Stringer's departure more delicately but expecting 50 goals a season of Schache - while I'm sure he'll be capable of that in time - to break even is a bit disingenuous.

Stringer broke that mark once in five years and he never presented the structural value that Schache might, as explosive as he was on the deck in our swirling garbage vortex of a forward line.

If Josh's presence allows us to better organise that eternal dumpster fire and the whole disposition of our side isn't being poisoned by wasteful entries, we're doing well.

That's not to suggest Stringer was negative structurally, but we can anchor a new setup around a contested marking forward with a big tank.

Suspect expectations will come back to earth once he's getting minutes in the hoops, but like Tom Boyd we should be aware of what he can do for us even this early.

To be frank it's ridiculous to even compare the value or output of the two, but I suppose it's going to go down that way given we kicked Jake to the curb while Schache's recruitment has been whitewashed as a face-saving exercise despite our dwindling key forward stocks.

On the one hand, we have someone who has demonstrated the ability to kick 50 goals a season, AA, match winner, etc. On the other, we have someone who hasn't done any of those things. Risky business. Granted, Jake got to that benchmark in his third year, big guys take longer etc...so Schache still has plenty of time, but he would want to get on the park and show something in the next year or two. Happy to accept that "something" as him projecting to be a 30 goal per year forward that straightens us up and improves the overall output of our other forwards by 5-10 goals each.

Bottom line is, we traded a player who, when not injured and on song, was in our top half dozen picked each week for value to the team in winning matches, for roughly the same price as we paid for Schache. Therefore, we should hope that Josh becomes one of our top half dozen picked each week, using whatever metrics you wish to justify that. If his fate is to spend years in and out of the 1s while Stringer gets his act together and kills it for the Bombers, I would argue that continuing to push the narrative that we can never possibly make a judgement on this trade or the comparative value of the players involved because of the circumstances surrounding it is truly disingenuous and ridiculous. Meanwhile, this thread is about Jmac, who appears to have mishandled all three main trades we were involved in and IMO can pack his bags.

 

[JJHunter]

Depends on if we thought we could get it done or not. If Brisbane said an earlier pick or nothing, might have been no point in medical until they said '20-odd will be ok if you can give a little extra '

Club has openly said scache only come into play in the second week - soo all this hindsight’s talk about the 11/26/47 deal is rubbish and pure hindsight.

When we knocked it back schache wasn’t even on the radar and we certainly didn’t know what the lions would accept. That all happened over 7 days after the ess first offer

 

[Doggy Dan]

Getting Schache looks like he biggest PR stunt of all time (notice how nearly all the heat in our our trade thread dissipated when his trade was announced). To us uneducated folk we see a tall kid who was good in juniors who we got cheap and cream ourselves. In reality, no-one wanted him, no other club made an offer and Brisbane wanted him out.....warning signs?

 

[JEDi 44]

Getting Schache looks like he biggest PR stunt of all time (notice how nearly all the heat in our our trade thread dissipated when his trade was announced). To us uneducated folk we see a tall kid who was good in juniors who we got cheap and cream ourselves. In reality, no-one wanted him, no other club made an offer and Brisbane wanted him out.....warning signs?

er......no one's here right now.
We're all down at the beach.
Someone will get back to you shortly
regards

 

[Bont2Bruce]

A lot of your ratings seem to ignore the context of the trades. You've got 5 thumbs downs in there, 4 of which are for players that wanted out and the other was the pick swap required to get Schache in

We did not need to do the pick swap to get Schache in. It was a desperate move on our part for which Carlton unduly benefitted. Without the pick swap, we would have had 3x 2017 2nd rounders as well as our 2018 2nd rounder, which was easily enough currency to get Schache - given that it only took 1x 2017 2nd rounder and 1x 2017 3rd rounder.

The focus needs to be on player retention across the club, not our negotiating at the trade table.

Your idea that context is important I find contradictory with your idea that player retention is important. If we were so good at player retention, we wouldn't have had so many players leaving us with a s**t sandwich at the trade table. I don't dispute that many times we were dealt a s**t sandwich, but I won't back away from thumbs down on the value that we were able to secure in these deals.

For example:

• Gibbs wanted out of Carlton, buy they were able to secure a lot of compensation for him.
• Ablett wanted out of Gold Coast, but they were not able to secure much compensation for him.

Clearly some list managers out there are able to still get a good deal from a s**t sandwich. Unfortunately, some are not.

It's not Jason McCartney's fault he had damaged goods to trade with Stringer, but it is his good work that meant Schache came to us and we got him cheaply

Agreed. Ergo, the Schache trade got a thumbs up from me.

I'd be more critical over the Crameri trade than the others, which you gave a thumbs up to

I have no problem with the Crameri trade, don't think we overpaid for what we got. What is your issue with that particular trade?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

We were not THERE and party to all the internal discussions, conversations and negotiations, so we have NFI. It seems arrogant to me to judge on outcomes only without first hand knowledge of the above.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

We were not THERE and party to all the internal discussions, conversations and negotiations, so we have NFI. It seems arrogant to me to judge on outcomes only without first hand knowledge of the above.

I don't see why anyone can't have an opinion about whether a trade outcome was good, bad or indifferent.

My opinion isn't important to those who made the decisions because I don't have all the context. But at the same time, it is not arrogant to have an opinion. Arrogance comes from having an over-inflated sense of the importance of your opinion. As I said, my opinion isn't very important in the overall scheme of things, and I am quite comfortable having one.

 

[BRWB]

JMac has overall been a failure as our list manager IMO. His shoddy work has been camouflaged by a gun coach and a gun recruiter.

Broadly speaking there are 3 functions of list management:

1: Re-signing talent
2: Identitying and attracting new talent
3: Negotiating deals

I would argue that in all areas JMac has failed.

1- Re-signing talent

This is often affected by the coach and other factors. But a good list manager can re-sign talent irrespective. When BMac was coach the word was we were losing a swathe of talent. Ineffective.

Some of our re-signings show a lack of forward planning. For instance if we were to get Trengove why re-sign Campbell and Roberts for two years? And then offer Campbell up for trade in the same year. A lack of effective communication seems a big problem. Why are players like Jong and Campbell feeling surprised to be offered for trade? Why was Hrovat not told more emphatically that his time was done a year earlier so we could have got a far better trade from GWS? Why was M Boyd repeatedly messed around and disrespected with his contracts? How did the Stringer trade go so pear shaped?

2 - Identifying and Attracting new talent.

JMac's biggest success was attracting Tom Boyd. Ironically the only reason we got Boyd was due to one of JMacs biggest failures - the failure to retain captain, Ryan Griffen. Not foreseeing this and allowing be club to be completely blindsided was even worse. Other than that JMac has failed abysmally in this key role:

A- Bullets dodged. So many near misses with JMac attempting to recruit poor players. Lobbe and Dawes are the worst. But there have been plenty of others. Recruiting Cloke was an abject failure. The recruitment of Suckling and Crameri down to coach relationships. Just two decent players in Biggs and Hamling is unacceptable.

B - Atttracting and signing talent. After a premiership and with a young powerful list it should have been relatively easy to recruit to get talent to nominate the Dogs. Has it happened? No. The failure to get the likes of Hurley, talented FAs and some of the cheap GWS and GCS talent throughout be last few years is very disappointing

3 - Negotiating - other list managers must lick their lips when lined up against JMac. I'm yet to see a trade where JMac has come out in front. The Crameri trade was the closest to par. The whole Stringer trade was a disaster from to go to woe. Hopefully Baines can teach him a thing or two if he stays.

The club won a flag despite JMAc IMO. The sooner he goes the better.

 

[Spectre]

JMac has overall been a failure as our list manager IMO. His shoddy work has been camouflaged by a gun coach and a gun recruiter.

Broadly speaking there are 3 functions of list management:

1: Re-signing talent
2: Identitying and attracting new talent
3: Negotiating deals

I would argue that in all areas JMac has failed.

1- Re-signing talent

This is often affected by the coach and other factors. But a good list manager can re-sign talent irrespective. When BMac was coach the word was we were losing a swathe of talent. Ineffective.

Some of our re-signings show a lack of forward planning. For instance if we were to get Trengove why re-sign Campbell and Roberts for two years? And then offer Campbell up for trade in the same year. A lack of effective communication seems a big problem. Why are players like Jong and Campbell feeling surprised to be offered for trade? Why was Hrovat not told more emphatically that his time was done a year earlier so we could have got a far better trade from GWS? Why was M Boyd repeatedly messed around and disrespected with his contracts? How did the Stringer trade go so pear shaped?

2 - Identifying and Attracting new talent.

JMac's biggest success was attracting Tom Boyd. Ironically the only reason we got Boyd was due to one of JMacs biggest failures - the failure to retain captain, Ryan Griffen. Not foreseeing this and allowing be club to be completely blindside was event worse. Other than that JMac has failed abysmally in this key role:

A- Bullets dodged. So many near misses with JMac attempting to recruit poor players. Lobbe and Dawes are the worst. But there have been plenty of others. Recruiting Cloke was an abject failure. The recruitment of Suckling and Crameri down to coach relationships. Just two decent players in Biggs and Hamling is unacceptable.

B - Atttracting and signing talent. After a premiership and with a young powerful list it should have been relatively easy to recruit to get talent to nominate the Dogs. Has it happened? No. The failure to get the likes of Hurley, talented FAs and some of the cheap GWS and GCS talent throughout be last few years is very disappointing

3 - Negotiating - other list managers must lick their lips when lined up against JMac. I'm yet to see a trade where JMac has come out in front. The Crameri trade was the closest to par. The whole Stringer trade was a disaster from to go to woe. Hopefully Baines can teach him a thing or two if he stays.

The club won a flag despite JMAc IMO. The sooner he goes the better.

Good post. The lack of communication and forward planning as you described continues to be evident - now Crameri is reported as out the door (despite sounding pretty hopeful of a reprieve when Stringer was in the process of getting traded), and Cloke might be about to hang the boots up despite the clear mentoring role for him in looking after Schache and Boyd. It's almost like our list manager just lurches from situation to situation, with only dumb luck to save us from his shortcomings.

 

[BRWB]

Good post. The lack of communication and forward planning as you described continues to be evident - now Crameri is reported as out the door (despite sounding pretty hopeful of a reprieve when Stringer was in the process of getting traded), and Cloke might be about to hang the boots up despite the clear mentoring role for him in looking after Schache and Boyd. It's almost like our list manager just lurches from situation to situation, with only dumb luck to save us from his shortcomings.

His failure to set Campbell and Jong's expectations was poor. We may have been able to shift those guys and avoid paying what we did for Schache by using Jong or perhaps being able to shift Campbell to Carlton instead of maybe shelling out for that obscene pick swap deal.

Just so poor.

My hope pre trade period was that JMac didn't get involved in anything major as he'd likely stuff it up. But he did.

Dalrymple must get so frustrated. Every time JMac gets involved he cuts down Dalrymple's chance to excel.

 

[gangsta deluxe]

I'm inclined to agree with the criticism particularly after today.

If we are going to get rid of Cram and Honey, and in addition to that Cloke is now gone, we now have a dud pick that needs to be used.

If this was unexpected why didn't we have this conversation with Cloke, you know... 3 weeks ago?

I just hope we get Gowers on the main list. Don't get me wrong I'm happy for the cleanout, it just seems it could have been better handled.