List Mgmt. Jeremy Cameron traded to Geelong

What will happen with Cameron?


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David the Cat

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Too long ago ..and not enough of a memory. Apart from the mark we have seen in the 67 gf...why was hart so good?
A real star was Royce Hart...great hands...Jeremy Cameron like mobility..real pace...a real team player with all the skills.

Inflicted some real pain on the Cats in his time.

A bit early to compare Jeremy Cameron to him......but Cameron looks special....so perhaps in good time.


 

Turbocat

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A real star was Royce Hart...great hands...Jeremy Cameron like mobility..real pace...a real team player with all the skills.

Inflicted some real pain on the Cats in his time.

A bit early to compare Jeremy Cameron to him......but Cameron looks special....so perhaps in good time.


Looks quite strong overhead. Setshot looks a bit weird. Playing today where would he play ..Mid?
 

Seeds

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A real star was Royce Hart...great hands...Jeremy Cameron like mobility..real pace...a real team player with all the skills.

Inflicted some real pain on the Cats in his time.

A bit early to compare Jeremy Cameron to him......but Cameron looks special....so perhaps in good time.


A bit early? Cameron’s 28. Royce hart finished his vfl career at 29.
 

David the Cat

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Not playing the modern game with that ball drop. It’s not professional standard. Also only 187cm. Far too immobile for someone of that size.


we quickly need to update thé team of the century to put Carey in there
Hahahaha.....how to look like a dill without even trying.

Hart is the same size and playing weight as Dusty Martin...you know, that immobile Richmond midfielder.

Exactly how much of Hart did you see play? Given the stupidity of your post, I suspect zero...

I saw him multiple times, in person, including his 1967 GF performance. He was a freak.

Having seen both Hart and Carey play, I would take Carey....but not by much. That said I've always thought comparing players of different eras a stupid exercise.

Was interesting that Carey expressed a similar sentiment when BT asked him to compare GAS and Buddy...different eras...worthless exercise.
 

catscollector

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Not playing the modern game with that ball drop. It’s not professional standard. Also only 187cm. Far too immobile for someone of that size.


we quickly need to update thé team of the century to put Carey in there
But it was a different sport in that day and age. You can't eliminate pioneers of their respective fields based on what their peers are doing 50+ years later.
Players like Coleman, Farmer, Hart helped to revolutionize the game we see today. They perfected their playing positions and if you were to beat them, you had to be bigger, stronger and more athletic.

We don't exclude Isaac Newton's achievements despite any 14 year old today having superior intellect.
 
Last edited:

catscollector

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Is weird to think of where our game will be in another life time.
I look at old vision from the WW2 era and it's almost a completely different game. The athletes looked slower and smaller.

Snr, Carey, Franklin . . . these guys will look exactly like those we watch on old archives from the 40's and 50's.
 

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Goggin Our Best

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Too long ago ..and not enough of a memory. Apart from the mark we have seen in the 67 gf...why was hart so good?
Not saying Richmond were a one man team - but he was so important to them

73PF - half time - they were exactly 6 goals behind - Hart ( who had a suspect knee at the time ) came on in the2nd half - they got up and won narrowly( and went on and won the flag the following week ) - and i think it would be fair to say - only because he came on - absolute match winner .

You only have to look at the highlights David The Cat put up - to see how good he was
 

Cursed Cat

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A real star was Royce Hart...great hands...Jeremy Cameron like mobility..real pace...a real team player with all the skills.

Inflicted some real pain on the Cats in his time.

A bit early to compare Jeremy Cameron to him......but Cameron looks special....so perhaps in good time.


aaaaawesome highlights, nice post.

rich history this game.

Royce Hart looks a bit more robust stacked against his peers than Cameron. Very mobile, great leap, strong kick (I like some of those thumpers on mudheaps late in the clip) - Turbocat you mentioned the weird ball drop; I don't mind it, very very deliberate, reminds me a bit of Ablett jr.

4 flags puts Hart waaaay ahead of Jeremy Cameron, as good as Cameron has been to date.


Not playing the modern game with that ball drop. It’s not professional standard. Also only 187cm. Far too immobile for someone of that size.


we quickly need to update thé team of the century to put Carey in there
can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not here, but Carey would probably get the nod given a hypothetical updating of the Team of the Century. You can fudge it with midfielders and the interchange bench, but there's only room for one CHF.

a more interesting question (imo) - would Scarlett unseat Silvagni, and should Silvagni have been the selected in the first place?
David Dench was just a little bit before my time but he sounds a generational talent and a key leader in a groundbreaking North Melbourne side. I'd have lined him up alongside Doull etc.
 

Cursed Cat

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Looks quite strong overhead. Setshot looks a bit weird. Playing today where would he play ..Mid?
CHF.

He would kill even at 187 cm given the appropriate conditioning.
Champions have the knack of holding on to the big marks, converting the tough shots and knowing what to do in the big moments; that stuff translates across the ages.

But it was a different sport in that day and age. You can't eliminate pioneers of their respective fields based on what their peers are doing 50+ years later.
Players like Coleman, Farmer, Hart helped to revolutionize the game we see today. They perfected their playing positions and if you were to beat them, you had to be bigger, stronger and more athletic.

We don't exclude Isaac Newton's achievements despite any 14 year old today having superior intellect.
Very well said.
 

Cursed Cat

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Is weird to think of where our game will be in another life time.
I look at old vision from the WW2 era and it's almost a completely different game. The athletes looked slower and smaller.

Snr, Carey, Franklin . . . these guys will look exactly like those we watch on old archives from the 40's and 50's.
of quite a philosophical frame of mind tonight I see ...

interesting question though; will humans continue the upward trajectory in terms of increasing height, speed and power? where does it all end?
look at the NBA for your examples of athletic extremity - someone like Kevin Durant is damn well 7 foot tall (what's that, 210cm?? taller?) and has as much skill as anyone to have played the game with ridiculous mobility for a human giraffe.

Like yourself I don't discount the achievements of those who went before the current generation of Australian Rules players; I can even genuinely appreciate talent from well before I was born; footage of the 1951 GF for instance is dodgy and I can only ever make out bits and pieces, but one things for sure, Bernie Smith had it in spades.
 

catscollector

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of quite a philosophical frame of mind tonight I see ...

interesting question though; will humans continue the upward trajectory in terms of increasing height, speed and power? where does it all end?
look at the NBA for your examples of athletic extremity - someone like Kevin Durant is damn well 7 foot tall (what's that, 210cm?? taller?) and has as much skill as anyone to have played the game with ridiculous mobility for a human giraffe.

Like yourself I don't discount the achievements of those who went before the current generation of Australian Rules players; I can even genuinely appreciate talent from well before I was born; footage of the 1951 GF for instance is dodgy and I can only ever make out bits and pieces, but one things for sure, Bernie Smith had it in spades.
Yeh it's a great question but if there is one defining trait about humanity, it's been our quest to always push the limits hasn't it?
It's been this way for millions of years.
Ancient Greeks were clocking their sprinters using the hourglass thousands of years ago. Now we have stopwatches and lasers so athletes are continuing to push themselves.
This won't stop.
Only recently, we saw a NFL receiver try his hand at sprinting against Olympic hopefuls. He stood 6ft'4 and weighed 105kg! That is ridiculous weight for the 100 metre dash.

As long as the desire to compete remains, we only continue to grow bigger in my opinion. I mean look at the average midfielder today, they are mostly 6ft'1 - 6ft'3 in height. Joel Corey, David Mundy, Scott Pendlebury were considered freaks 15 years ago.
Jeremy Cameron is 6ft'5 and 96kg and yet, he moves around like Travis Varcoe in his prime. Size really matters. If your bigger and stronger, you are going to win more times than not.
 

scottydeewah

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interesting question though; will humans continue the upward trajectory in terms of increasing height, speed and power? where does it all end?
It's not a definitive answer but this is a good Ted Talk if you haven't seen it:
It is basically a short thesis that perhaps athletes aren't particularly getting all that much faster, better, stronger, but we have made other advancements:
  • Technology - The sherrin is different than 40 or 100 years ago, even if their marketing department may tell you its the same classic ball. Forget that though, think about the technology improvements in boots (my god boots in even the 60s are just unrecognizable). Then consider recovery, supplements, nutrition, sports medicine, etc. Even something as simple as the jumper technology - not sure how I would go wearing heavy, ankle high boots and a full lace up woolen jumper kicking a ball thats bordering on round!
  • Access to sport - go back to the start of the modern olympics and you probably (but not always) had to be wealthy to participate (fair chance you weren't poor is maybe more the point). Did we miss the greatest player ever because they were shot and killed in WWII? Was their an indigenous bloke in 1924 that ran rings around every player in the country but he didnt have access to the big leagues? I was in the Essendon museum recently and there is a guy that played in two games for Essendon in two years for two flags = seems like they brought him down from his job in the country to win flags once a year! There are a ton of players that played interstate or even country leagues back in the day that never came to the "biggest/best" league and because of this we may not consider them or look upon them favorably yet it it was possibly less skill and more lack of oportunity (or inability to take that opportunity - e.g. work) that stopped them playing in the top league.
  • Specialisation - Talked about heavily in the TED talk, and discussed a bit above (re the NBA players). At 177cm I would have been considered the model athlete in 1904 (see our shot putter below). All-around athletes were quiet popular - maybe why I have played a number of sports, always okay, never exceptionally! Now though it is much more about specilisation and it is so incredibly rare to see true two sport champions not just because of time, contracts, etc. but because the sports are even more specialised and we now filter much larger portions of the population into sport, so we can pick more of the freaks. This is even more evident in "one skill" sports where the athlete types become even more similar - tall and huge wingspan for NBA, long legs for long distance runners, short torso for swimmers, NFL lineman getting bigger, etc. The NFL is a great example. where once players played both directions and possibly even a number of positions, now you have particular players who only play 1-2 downs at specific times in one position. Same thing very evident in athletics.
I have often said that I believe the most notable thing to change in the 30 odd years I have been watching sport is the longevity. Almost every sport I can think of has athletes performing for longer. Professionalism, recovery, nutrition and sport medicine and surgery. An ACL in 1985 was the end of your career, players almost never came back the same (and if they did it was probably as much their natural ability to recover). Now players have 1-2 and come back and play another 5 seasons. Geelong had the most amount of over 30yo players ever fielded in a VFL/AFL match on the weekend and I am fine with it.

This is a good youtube video on the science behind shot put: Basically we now know the perfect technique, perfect angle, etc. to shot a put. So the bloke who won the first Olympics, threw it like 11m. Same guy also won medals in the long jump, high jump, discus and triple jump and came from a wealthy family. Seems like 21-22m is now normal. So in 79 years it moved ~11m and in the last 45 years it has moved ~35cm and I highly doubt a bloke that can shot a put 22m is doing much of anything in the high jump plus now he might have grown up poor and got a college scholarship rather than having rich parents.

So to answer, the gains we have made in getting bigger/faster/stronger probably aren't as big as you think and are probably closer to maxing out than people consider (a lot of sports are hampered by pure physics/mechanics - e.g. there is a theoretical maximum distance a sherrin can be kicked, and we have probably reached it already). But yes, we don't know what technological advancements in either equipment (new boots/new ball) or bio-mechanics that become legal or possible in the future.
 

Seeds

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But it was a different sport in that day and age. You can't eliminate pioneers of their respective fields based on what their peers are doing 50+ years later.
Players like Coleman, Farmer, Hart helped to revolutionize the game we see today. They perfected their playing positions and if you were to beat them, you had to be bigger, stronger and more athletic.

We don't exclude Isaac Newton's achievements despite any 14 year old today having superior intellect.
I’m not. For his time he was a star. my Post was just in reference to whether he would play today. Albeit Carey was a bigger star for his time then Royce in his.
 

Seeds

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Yeh it's a great question but if there is one defining trait about humanity, it's been our quest to always push the limits hasn't it?
It's been this way for millions of years.
Ancient Greeks were clocking their sprinters using the hourglass thousands of years ago. Now we have stopwatches and lasers so athletes are continuing to push themselves.
This won't stop.
Only recently, we saw a NFL receiver try his hand at sprinting against Olympic hopefuls. He stood 6ft'4 and weighed 105kg! That is ridiculous weight for the 100 metre dash.

As long as the desire to compete remains, we only continue to grow bigger in my opinion. I mean look at the average midfielder today, they are mostly 6ft'1 - 6ft'3 in height. Joel Corey, David Mundy, Scott Pendlebury were considered freaks 15 years ago.
Jeremy Cameron is 6ft'5 and 96kg and yet, he moves around like Travis Varcoe in his prime. Size really matters. If your bigger and stronger, you are going to win more times than not.
Genetic engineering is at our door steps. Players will be 12 foot tall by the end of the century. people may not even age by then. Playing careers could last 40 years.

im serious.

this is going to make stats comparisons ridiculous.
 

Seeds

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You assess players over their whole career....not just what suits a particular point of view.

Its significant that Cameron is even in the discussion.

Hart was a legend....right up there with the best of them.
if Cameron retires tomorrow you are saying we can compare him but if he doesn’t we can’t even though his career up to this point is exactly the same? that’s illogical.

what happens if he played another 5 years but was well below his best in his last 5 years (like Robert Harvey). does that make what he did up to now worse or unchanged? And if unchanged why can’t we compare? at this point both played over the same age.

can we really compare a Cameron who played deep into his thirties to a player who retired in his peak years anyway. Surely the comparison is better to do right now. We don’t know what hart could of done in his thirties.

hart 187 games. 369 goals. Cameron 178 games And 450 goals.
 

Seeds

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Hahahaha.....how to look like a dill without even trying.

Hart is the same size and playing weight as Dusty Martin...you know, that immobile Richmond midfielder.

Exactly how much of Hart did you see play? Given the stupidity of your post, I suspect zero...

I saw him multiple times, in person, including his 1967 GF performance. He was a freak.

Having seen both Hart and Carey play, I would take Carey....but not by much. That said I've always thought comparing players of different eras a stupid exercise.

Was interesting that Carey expressed a similar sentiment when BT asked him to compare GAS and Buddy...different eras...worthless exercise.
you disagree then make my exact point. Look at the mobility of hart vs Martin. Hart would not compete as a mid. He could barely compete as a mid in his time let alone today. And today he could not be a key position player.

and again look at that awful slow ball drop. He would be run down all the time in open play. Name a player today whose kick is that bad? I would have to go back to Andrew Dunkley from 15 years ago.
 

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