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Toast Jesse White

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TradeDraft said:
You play better in your Contract Year
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did not look like that at the start of the season. and he still can play a lot better yet. hope
 
TradeDraft said:
You play better in your Contract Year
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Not so harsh on him. He played a different role that is more suited to him.
1 st minute of 4th qtr. You see him turn out of a tackle and take off. Cloke or any other powerful fwd would his strength to get into a wrestle or do a fend-off.
Or bursting through the pack after that tap from Cox. Been a while since we have seen that now that we no longer have Swanny.
 
Kudos to the man bun wearing Jessie...two good games in a row and as someone here said he is actually looking confident, as opposed to the startled deer in headlights look he has worn in the past. Maybe the absence of Senor Cloke has lifted his mood...
 

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Being bit controversial I would say the biggest difference in Jesse's performance the last 2 weeks and in 2015 is perception of supporters. There is actually very little difference in the way he is playing. He is not a new man. I have thought all along Jesse is fine as long a he is accepted for what he is. A journey man KPF, ideally suited to the no 3 role, who looks much better when the team is performing well and becomes a scapegoat when the team struggles. Between these 2 poles the perception of how supporters see him performing will be much greater than the real difference in his performance.

In 2015 he did exactly what we wanted from him probably barring a few missed shots that were really important and would have cast him in a completely different light if they went through. He can easily be the Leigh Brown of Collingwood circa 2010-11 or the David Hale of Hawthorn 2011-15.

Out of interest, and I preface this by agreeing stats are not the whole picture, we are lauding his game on Sat night when in a very easy game and resounding victory he had the following stats

15 disp, 7 marks, 3 goals.

In 2015 I would say he has 11 of his 18 games that were statistically similar even though many of them were against much tougher opposition.

R1 Brisbane 17 disp, 7 marks, 2 goals
R2 Adelaide 17 disp, 7 marks, 2 goals
R6 Geelong 13 disp, 9 marks, 2 goals
R7 Richmond 13 disp, 4 marks, 2 goals
R8 Gold Coast 12 disp, 5 marks, 4 goals
R9 North Melb 12 disp, 6 marks, 1 goal
R11 GWS 10 disp, 3 marks, 3 goals
R14 Hawthorn 14 disp, 6 marks, 2 goals
R15 Port Adel 15 disp, 6 marks, 1 goal
R22 Geelong 13 disp, 4 marks, 2 goals
R23 Essendon 21 disp, 10 marks, 2 goals

What's more 6 of those 11 games were losses so overall games that were tougher to do well in. Also of note was Sat was the highest score we have kicked in 2015-16. If you were going to get a touch or kick a goal at Collingwood anytime in the last 2 seasons Sat was the one most likely.

Perception has swung wildly on Jesse recently. I have seen a lot of posters saying his cards are marked and he should never play again. Now he is a new man. What I would say he is the same player, if he can continue a similar output as he did in 2015 and the last 2 weeks he can be a valuable member of the team and in the current set up is even more valuable now he can be 3rd tall. If we put Cloke back in maybe even Darcy Moore could have a run in the 2's and learn a bit more about the caper and get a few more stats. He is the one we don't want to burn out.
 
Gone Critical said:
Being bit controversial I would say the biggest difference in Jesse's performance the last 2 weeks and in 2015 is perception of supporters. There is actually very little difference in the way he is playing. He is not a new man. I have thought all along Jesse is fine as long a he is accepted for what he is. A journey man KPF, ideally suited to the no 3 role, who looks much better when the team is performing well and becomes a scapegoat when the team struggles. Between these 2 poles the perception of how supporters see him performing will be much greater than the real difference in his performance.

In 2015 he did exactly what we wanted from him probably barring a few missed shots that were really important and would have cast him in a completely different light if they went through. He can easily be the Leigh Brown of Collingwood circa 2010-11 or the David Hale of Hawthorn 2011-15.

Out of interest, and I preface this by agreeing stats are not the whole picture, we are lauding his game on Sat night when in a very easy game and resounding victory he had the following stats

15 disp, 7 marks, 3 goals.

In 2015 I would say he has 11 of his 18 games that were statistically similar even though many of them were against much tougher opposition.

R1 Brisbane 17 disp, 7 marks, 2 goals
R2 Adelaide 17 disp, 7 marks, 2 goals
R6 Geelong 13 disp, 9 marks, 2 goals
R7 Richmond 13 disp, 4 marks, 2 goals
R8 Gold Coast 12 disp, 5 marks, 4 goals
R9 North Melb 12 disp, 6 marks, 1 goal
R11 GWS 10 disp, 3 marks, 3 goals
R14 Hawthorn 14 disp, 6 marks, 2 goals
R15 Port Adel 15 disp, 6 marks, 1 goal
R22 Geelong 13 disp, 4 marks, 2 goals
R23 Essendon 21 disp, 10 marks, 2 goals

What's more 6 of those 11 games were losses so overall games that were tougher to do well in. Also of note was Sat was the highest score we have kicked in 2015-16. If you were going to get a touch or kick a goal at Collingwood anytime in the last 2 seasons Sat was the one most likely.

Perception has swung wildly on Jesse recently. I have seen a lot of posters saying his cards are marked and he should never play again. Now he is a new man. What I would say he is the same player, if he can continue a similar output as he did in 2015 and the last 2 weeks he can be a valuable member of the team and in the current set up is even more valuable now he can be 3rd tall. If we put Cloke back in maybe even Darcy Moore could have a run in the 2's and learn a bit more about the caper and get a few more stats. He is the one we don't want to burn out.
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It is no coincidence that the perception on Cloke has swung just as wildly; if Cloke was still playing he would be the new punching bag.
Think you are a bit optimistic about Cloke's chances coming back. Can Cox and Cloke both play fwd without Cloke having to play a different role and/or literally be in the shadow of Cox?
 
PicaBoo said:
It is no coincidence that the perception on Cloke has swung just as wildly; if Cloke was still playing he would be the new punching bag.
Think you are a bit optimistic about Cloke's chances coming back. Can Cox and Cloke both play fwd without Cloke having to play a different role and/or literally be in the shadow of Cox?
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I have stated it in a few places already but the poor form of both White and Cloke in 2015 has been vastly overestimated. I have no doubt he can come back. Buckleys standing as a coach is dependent on it to a degree. He can't afford to see another Collingwood star leave the fold and do well elsewhere.

I have great hopes for Cox ever since I saw him in the VFL last year. Funny thing is at the start of the year I was optimistic about his prospects compared to most of the board and now I find myself in the camp of hosing down expectations. He has promise but has only played 4 games. Let's not pencil him in as a fixture in the team just yet.
 
PicaBoo said:
It is no coincidence that the perception on Cloke has swung just as wildly; if Cloke was still playing he would be the new punching bag.
Think you are a bit optimistic about Cloke's chances coming back. Can Cox and Cloke both play fwd without Cloke having to play a different role and/or literally be in the shadow of Cox?
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Personally I think there is room for Cloke, Moore and Cox in the same forward line. White has done really well recently but history tells me that he will eventually make way for Cloke. Could happen as early as next week.
 
jmac70 said:
Personally I think there is room for Cloke, Moore and Cox in the same forward line. White has done really well recently but history tells me that he will eventually make way for Cloke. Could happen as early as next week.
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Or in the short term Moore or even Cox may make way and Cloke, White and Cox or Cloke White and Moore could team well together. Moore in particular won't be hurt by a spell in the VFL where he has a better chance to learn about building his numbers and being a more constant influence on the game.

Whichever way for the next couple of seasons we can hopefully be in the good position of having a viable 3 man KPF set up with our best forward, Cloke, at the head of it.
 
jmac70 said:
Personally I think there is room for Cloke, Moore and Cox in the same forward line. White has done really well recently but history tells me that he will eventually make way for Cloke. Could happen as early as next week.
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I doubt Jesse will be dropped until either Brown or Reid are back in the side. We need someone to go down back in case Frost is injured.
 
I can't believe White even got selected to play. Having said that he has made the most of his opportunity and there is no way he can be dropped this week.
 

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Gone Critical said:
Being bit controversial I would say the biggest difference in Jesse's performance the last 2 weeks and in 2015 is perception of supporters. There is actually very little difference in the way he is playing. He is not a new man. I have thought all along Jesse is fine as long a he is accepted for what he is. A journey man KPF, ideally suited to the no 3 role, who looks much better when the team is performing well and becomes a scapegoat when the team struggles. Between these 2 poles the perception of how supporters see him performing will be much greater than the real difference in his performance.

In 2015 he did exactly what we wanted from him probably barring a few missed shots that were really important and would have cast him in a completely different light if they went through. He can easily be the Leigh Brown of Collingwood circa 2010-11 or the David Hale of Hawthorn 2011-15.

Out of interest, and I preface this by agreeing stats are not the whole picture, we are lauding his game on Sat night when in a very easy game and resounding victory he had the following stats

15 disp, 7 marks, 3 goals.

In 2015 I would say he has 11 of his 18 games that were statistically similar even though many of them were against much tougher opposition.

R1 Brisbane 17 disp, 7 marks, 2 goals
R2 Adelaide 17 disp, 7 marks, 2 goals
R6 Geelong 13 disp, 9 marks, 2 goals
R7 Richmond 13 disp, 4 marks, 2 goals
R8 Gold Coast 12 disp, 5 marks, 4 goals
R9 North Melb 12 disp, 6 marks, 1 goal
R11 GWS 10 disp, 3 marks, 3 goals
R14 Hawthorn 14 disp, 6 marks, 2 goals
R15 Port Adel 15 disp, 6 marks, 1 goal
R22 Geelong 13 disp, 4 marks, 2 goals
R23 Essendon 21 disp, 10 marks, 2 goals

What's more 6 of those 11 games were losses so overall games that were tougher to do well in. Also of note was Sat was the highest score we have kicked in 2015-16. If you were going to get a touch or kick a goal at Collingwood anytime in the last 2 seasons Sat was the one most likely.

Perception has swung wildly on Jesse recently. I have seen a lot of posters saying his cards are marked and he should never play again. Now he is a new man. What I would say he is the same player, if he can continue a similar output as he did in 2015 and the last 2 weeks he can be a valuable member of the team and in the current set up is even more valuable now he can be 3rd tall. If we put Cloke back in maybe even Darcy Moore could have a run in the 2's and learn a bit more about the caper and get a few more stats. He is the one we don't want to burn out.
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I agree..mostly...but his attack on the ball seems more certain. He seems to want to take shots on goal, whereas there were time last year where he literally seemed to shrivel up when faced with a set shot. I think he bore the brunt for a lot of our falling away last year, when in relaity his output was fairly consistent compared to Cloke who dropped off noticeably in the 2nd half of last year. The last 2 games Jesse just appears to have presence and confidence. I've never thought that about him before.
 
Countrypie said:
I agree..mostly...but his attack on the ball seems more certain. He seems to want to take shots on goal, whereas there were time last year where he literally seemed to shrivel up when faced with a set shot. I think he bore the brunt for a lot of our falling away last year, when in relaity his output was fairly consistent compared to Cloke who dropped off noticeably in the 2nd half of last year. The last 2 games Jesse just appears to have presence and confidence. I've never thought that about him before.
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Can we revisit the bolded part after the Dogs game.........IMO it is a false dawn I hope to be proven wrong.
 
Countrypie said:
I agree..mostly...but his attack on the ball seems more certain. He seems to want to take shots on goal, whereas there were time last year where he literally seemed to shrivel up when faced with a set shot. I think he bore the brunt for a lot of our falling away last year, when in relaity his output was fairly consistent compared to Cloke who dropped off noticeably in the 2nd half of last year. The last 2 games Jesse just appears to have presence and confidence. I've never thought that about him before.
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Sorry to be picky but I keep hearing Cloke dropped off in the 2nd half of 2015 but I don't find any evidence of that. As I have posted elsewhere in the five games prior to his injury he polled Brownlow votes twice and was listed in our best in 2 of the other 3. He only played 2 games after that when he wasn't right and then was out for last 2 rounds

I can accept the last part of his year was scuppered by injury but I cant see where his form dropped off noticeably in the 2nd half of the year.
 
CFC2010 said:
Can we revisit the bolded part after the Dogs game.........IMO it is a false dawn I hope to be proven wrong.
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Interesting part with Whites 2015 was that his statistically good games occurred more often when we lost than when we won. Looking at his form it fluctuated much less than the fortunes of the team. I wonder how much perception is at play here. We remember his howlers and hesitation when we went badly but forgive and forget after victories. Overall Jesse may be a pretty consistent vehicle so his output might not change even if we get belted the next 2 weeks. What would definitely change is the perception of how he played.
 

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Gone Critical said:
Interesting part with Whites 2015 was that his statistically good games occurred more often when we lost than when we won. Looking at his form it fluctuated much less than the fortunes of the team. I wonder how much perception is at play here. We remember his howlers and hesitation when we went badly but forgive and forget after victories. Overall Jesse may be a pretty consistent vehicle so his output might not change even if we get belted the next 2 weeks. What would definitely change is the perception of how he played.
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I stamped his papers after the Hawthorn game last year..........very hard for me to change my mind based on his last two games.

Like I said I hope I am proven wrong.
 
S
Gone Critical said:
Being bit controversial I would say the biggest difference in Jesse's performance the last 2 weeks and in 2015 is perception of supporters. There is actually very little difference in the way he is playing. He is not a new man. I have thought all along Jesse is fine as long a he is accepted for what he is. A journey man KPF, ideally suited to the no 3 role, who looks much better when the team is performing well and becomes a scapegoat when the team struggles. Between these 2 poles the perception of how supporters see him performing will be much greater than the real difference in his performance.

In 2015 he did exactly what we wanted from him probably barring a few missed shots that were really important and would have cast him in a completely different light if they went through. He can easily be the Leigh Brown of Collingwood circa 2010-11 or the David Hale of Hawthorn 2011-15.

Out of interest, and I preface this by agreeing stats are not the whole picture, we are lauding his game on Sat night when in a very easy game and resounding victory he had the following stats

15 disp, 7 marks, 3 goals.

In 2015 I would say he has 11 of his 18 games that were statistically similar even though many of them were against much tougher opposition.

R1 Brisbane 17 disp, 7 marks, 2 goals
R2 Adelaide 17 disp, 7 marks, 2 goals
R6 Geelong 13 disp, 9 marks, 2 goals
R7 Richmond 13 disp, 4 marks, 2 goals
R8 Gold Coast 12 disp, 5 marks, 4 goals
R9 North Melb 12 disp, 6 marks, 1 goal
R11 GWS 10 disp, 3 marks, 3 goals
R14 Hawthorn 14 disp, 6 marks, 2 goals
R15 Port Adel 15 disp, 6 marks, 1 goal
R22 Geelong 13 disp, 4 marks, 2 goals
R23 Essendon 21 disp, 10 marks, 2 goals

What's more 6 of those 11 games were losses so overall games that were tougher to do well in. Also of note was Sat was the highest score we have kicked in 2015-16. If you were going to get a touch or kick a goal at Collingwood anytime in the last 2 seasons Sat was the one most likely.

Perception has swung wildly on Jesse recently. I have seen a lot of posters saying his cards are marked and he should never play again. Now he is a new man. What I would say he is the same player, if he can continue a similar output as he did in 2015 and the last 2 weeks he can be a valuable member of the team and in the current set up is even more valuable now he can be 3rd tall. If we put Cloke back in maybe even Darcy Moore could have a run in the 2's and learn a bit more about the caper and get a few more stats. He is the one we don't want to burn out.
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Solid post but he was dropped for a reason...he was poor and weak in the contest...stuff stats don't show.
 
BEEG said:
Forward line seems to be working a lot better with White, Moore, Cox and Fasolo
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But we lost to Carlton........I still can't get my head around that fact......irrespective if White played ok or not!
 

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