Universal Love Jessie White and Taylor Adams

[jonbe54]

Whoever draws the 'worst' defender should bag goals.........until the opposition rejig their backline.....thereby creating an opportunity for another forward......putting the opposition on the back foot & panic mode is the key....hopefully White can add to the defensive coaching dilemma for all opposition teams this year.

Agreed, he should mark better drawing 3rd tall defender and even if he doesn't consistently outmark his man he isn't disadvantaged like a forward that relies on marking, with his speed and agility he could be a dangerous proposition in conjunction with Cloke and Reid.

 

[lozza63]

That NAB game was no ordinary NAB game the tackling and contested ball numbers were more akin to a final - Cats 156 cp vs Pies 170 odd, tackles Cats 80+ vs Pies 90 odd - no ordinary game that one - i loved it for what it represents the head space of the boys.

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

That NAB game was no ordinary NAB game the tackling and contested ball numbers were more akin to a final - Cats 156 cp vs Pies 170 odd, tackles Cats 80+ vs Pies 90 odd - no ordinary game that one - i loved it for what it represents the head space of the boys.

I agree, but I just hope they don't burn out like in 2011.

 

[TradeDraft]

Agreed, he should mark better drawing 3rd tall defender and even if he doesn't consistently outmark his man he isn't disadvantaged like a forward that relies on marking, with his speed and agility he could be a dangerous proposition in conjunction with Cloke and Reid.

Like how Franklin is not a Great Mark but his work after that is Amazing

 

[Mame]

I agree, but I just hope they don't burn out like in 2011.

That was as much about Scott resting players throughout the season compared to Mick's unwillingness to "flirt with form" as anything. We did it wrong. The double bye played out perfectly for the Cats too with their second one in round 22. We finished top, 3 games clear of West Coast at fourth position and didn't need to. We were the best home and away side for nothing in the end.

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

We were the best home and away side for nothing in the end.

Good post. It was a familiar pattern in 2008 for Geelong and 2009 for St Kilda. Almost 2010 too for Geelong if the Melbourne draw had tipped the other way (better percentage than Pies).

 

[Ramere]

Agree.

The metrics we need to be assessing White on (as we needed to measure Lynch on and Dawes on) are contested marks, marks in forward 50, and set shot goals. The kick off the ground goals or snap goals are icing, but he needs to do the cake things. If he struggles at the above things, then there is no point needing to put a tall defender on him, and therefore that tall defender can still be used to zone onto Cloke and double team.

We need White to be a marking threat, otherwise he isn't as much use.

Of course opposition sides will need to put a tall player on him as it exposes a percieved weakness. Putting a small player on him would increase the chances of clunking a few, therefore making him a more effective player.

 

[jonbe54]

Agree.

The metrics we need to be assessing White on (as we needed to measure Lynch on and Dawes on) are contested marks, marks in forward 50, and set shot goals. The kick off the ground goals or snap goals are icing, but he needs to do the cake things. If he struggles at the above things, then there is no point needing to put a tall defender on him, and therefore that tall defender can still be used to zone onto Cloke and double team.

We need White to be a marking threat, otherwise he isn't as much use.

Some of you just don't get it. Our forward line is like this. . .

Cloke - man mountain - best marking tall defender the opp has.
Reid - tall mobile marking target - 2nd best tall marking defender the opp has.
White - tall althletic freak - 3rd best tall marking defender - also must be bloody quick - also must be bloody agile.
Elliot - high marking mid sized - 4th best marking defender
Fasolo - strong 1v1 marking - 5th best marking defender
Swan - super strong 1v1 in air - 6th best marking defender

With or without clunking marks all over the place White changes the dynamics heavily in our favour because the opposition MUST put a decent tall marking defender on him who also a turn of speed and is reasonably agile.

Even without the rucks and mids drifting down, this poses a strategic problem that few sides can even partially counter.

Who has 6 good marking backmen in thier side?

Not one team that I know of.

 

[Smokeyr67]

"The metrics we need to be assessing"

my god language has changed since I played footy. In my day, it would have been "does he f$%@&ng go hard at the f%^^$#ng footy, and can he take a f&%*%&^%&%ing mark? We can teach the f^&*%er how to kick"

 

[Robroy22]

Knightmare has said that White has to keep his running and tackling intent to the fore for him to make the most of his chance with us. I agree but I can see some similarities to another tattooed, tall forward with marking deficiencies. If White can play on third defenders and be given space to run them off their legs then he will regularly get access to 5+ shots at goal a week. Seems to me that he already finishes better than Buddy....so if we use him properly (i.e.: play to his strengths) then he will be a fantastic avenue to goal and allow Cloke and the other forwards to play much more as 1:1 forwards.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Some of you just don't get it. Our forward line is like this. . .

Cloke - man mountain - best marking tall defender the opp has.
Reid - tall mobile marking target - 2nd best tall marking defender the opp has.
White - tall althletic freak - 3rd best tall marking defender - also must be bloody quick - also must be bloody agile.
Elliot - high marking mid sized - 4th best marking defender
Fasolo - strong 1v1 marking - 5th best marking defender
Swan - super strong 1v1 in air - 6th best marking defender

With or without clunking marks all over the place White changes the dynamics heavily in our favour because the opposition MUST put a decent tall marking defender on him who also a turn of speed and is reasonably agile.

Even without the rucks and mids drifting down, this poses a strategic problem that few sides can even partially counter.

Who has 6 good marking backmen in thier side?

Not one team that I know of.

We have to avoid having the opposition able to put a medium tall on White who can then offer drive the other way. We need White to need to command a tall defender on him (who by definition will not provide as much offensive drive for the opposition). That way we will be taking out a medium offensive player from their defense, forcing a tall defender to give respect to him rather than zonin off, and having someone man White who will not be as quick or mobile as him. We didn't draft White to be a crumbing forward. Those goals are good, but it is more important he is a marking threat.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Some of you just don't get it. Our forward line is like this. . .

Cloke - man mountain - best marking tall defender the opp has.
Reid - tall mobile marking target - 2nd best tall marking defender the opp has.
White - tall althletic freak - 3rd best tall marking defender - also must be bloody quick - also must be bloody agile.
Elliot - high marking mid sized - 4th best marking defender
Fasolo - strong 1v1 marking - 5th best marking defender
Swan - super strong 1v1 in air - 6th best marking defender

With or without clunking marks all over the place White changes the dynamics heavily in our favour because the opposition MUST put a decent tall marking defender on him who also a turn of speed and is reasonably agile.

Even without the rucks and mids drifting down, this poses a strategic problem that few sides can even partially counter.

Who has 6 good marking backmen in thier side?

Not one team that I know of.

We have to avoid having the opposition able to put a medium tall on White who can then offer drive the other way. We need White to need to command a tall defender on him (who by definition will not provide as much offensive drive for the opposition). That way we will be taking out a medium offensive player from their defense, forcing a tall defender to give respect to him rather than zonin off, and having someone man White who will not be as quick or mobile as him. We didn't draft White to be a crumbing forward. Those goals are good, but it is more important he is a marking threat.

 

[Jelly Bean]

"The metrics we need to be assessing"

my god language has changed since I played footy. In my day, it would have been "does he f$%@&ng go hard at the f%^^$#ng footy, and can he take a f&%*%&^%&%ing mark? We can teach the f^&*%er how to kick"

Yep, it certainly has.

 

[jonbe54]

We have to avoid having the opposition able to put a medium tall on White who can then offer drive the other way. We need White to need to command a tall defender on him (who by definition will not provide as much offensive drive for the opposition). That way we will be taking out a medium offensive player from their defense, forcing a tall defender to give respect to him rather than zonin off, and having someone man White who will not be as quick or mobile as him. We didn't draft White to be a crumbing forward. Those goals are good, but it is more important he is a marking threat.

Geeze Jelly - talk about a glass half empty

Look at it from the half full point of view and don't take White in isolation.

For a side to gain the upper hand they have to overpower 5 strong marking forwards and an tall athletic freak.

First you have to cover Cloke, then you have to cover Reid, then Elliott, then Faz, then Swan and after those marking options are covered they have to spare someone to run with White - AND if it is a medium as you point out he will do much better than against Geelong in the air because he was getting the second best tall there.

With a full side in White will get no higher than third best marking option, or if they move second best option to him it allows either Reid or Cloke a looser leash.

Forward lines are all about threat - and White with his athletecism is a genuine threat in tandem with the marking power of Cloke and Reid.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Geeze Jelly - talk about a glass half empty

Look at it from the half full point of view and don't take White in isolation.

For a side to gain the upper hand they have to overpower 5 strong marking forwards and an tall athletic freak.

First you have to cover Cloke, then you have to cover Reid, then Elliott, then Faz, then Swan and after those marking options are covered they have to spare someone to run with White - AND if it is a medium as you point out he will do much better than against Geelong in the air because he was getting the second best tall there.

With a full side in White will get no higher than third best marking option, or if they move second best option to him it allows either Reid or Cloke a looser leash.

Forward lines are all about threat - and White with his athletecism is a genuine threat in tandem with the marking power of Cloke and Reid.

I'm no being glass half empty (as far as I can tell).

I know white is a threat, but at this point he is only a threat when the ball is on the ground (meaning when the ball is in the air, he can be zoned off, or have a medium play on him). For example, if he were playing against us, we wouldn't necessarily need to put a Keeffe or Brown on him, as Toovey could probably do the job. Or someone like Maxwell, who could then zone off as 3rd man up against Cloke.

I'm not saying he is a bad mark, just that he didn't show that he was a reasonable mark on Wednesday. Fingers crossed he improves. And to your point, the only way they will move to a 2nd best tall defensive option agaisnt him is if he starts to be a threat in the air.

 

[jonbe54]

I'm no being glass half empty (as far as I can tell).

I know white is a threat, but at this point he is only a threat when the ball is on the ground (meaning when the ball is in the air, he can be zoned off, or have a medium play on him). For example, if he were playing against us, we wouldn't necessarily need to put a Keeffe or Brown on him, as Toovey could probably do the job. Or someone like Maxwell, who could then zone off as 3rd man up against Cloke.

I'm not saying he is a bad mark, just that he didn't show that he was a reasonable mark on Wednesday. Fingers crossed he improves. And to your point, the only way they will move to a 2nd best tall defensive option agaisnt him is if he starts to be a threat in the air.

We see this different Jelly which is no bad thing at all, I agree its unlikely he would get second best tall - but that's exactly what he got against geelong, so assuming for the sake of argument Reid comes in and Jessie stays as third tall he would logically get third tall defender, now how many teams have great third tall defenders with pace and agility? And again I would like to see either Tooves or Maxy beat him 1V1 on the ground.

All this is vapourware of course at this stage but I genuinely believe third tall defender he will at least halve in the air and outmaneuver on the ground and medium tall he will outmark enough to be a genuine threat. Looked at in isolation he isn't a tremendous threat but with Cloke and Reid taking the two best defenders, he becomes one whichever type of opponent the opposition decides to use on him.

The other big plus is he demands the third best which opens up opportunities for our marking midsized and rotating mids.

Provided he works as hard as he apparently did in the last half of last season with the Swans I can see us blowing some sides out of the water, not the power sides but lesser sides we can now stretch to breaking point.

 

[Pied Avenger]

Knightmare has said that White has to keep his running and tackling intent to the fore for him to make the most of his chance with us. I agree but I can see some similarities to another tattooed, tall forward with marking deficiencies. If White can play on third defenders and be given space to run them off their legs then he will regularly get access to 5+ shots at goal a week. Seems to me that he already finishes better than Buddy....so if we use him properly (i.e.: play to his strengths) then he will be a fantastic avenue to goal and allow Cloke and the other forwards to play much more as 1:1 forwards.

It moved Jerry O.K. ............it moved

 

[jmac70]

That NAB game was no ordinary NAB game the tackling and contested ball numbers were more akin to a final - Cats 156 cp vs Pies 170 odd, tackles Cats 80+ vs Pies 90 odd - no ordinary game that one - i loved it for what it represents the head space of the boys.

Statistics lie. It was nothing like a final and drawing conclusions like this are fraught with danger. If White can make a meaningful contribution agains Freo's defence in round 1 then he will have my vote. Until then the jury is well and truly out.

 

[Duggy31]

I'm no being glass half empty (as far as I can tell).

I know white is a threat, but at this point he is only a threat when the ball is on the ground (meaning when the ball is in the air, he can be zoned off, or have a medium play on him). For example, if he were playing against us, we wouldn't necessarily need to put a Keeffe or Brown on him, as Toovey could probably do the job. Or someone like Maxwell, who could then zone off as 3rd man up against Cloke.

I'm not saying he is a bad mark, just that he didn't show that he was a reasonable mark on Wednesday. Fingers crossed he improves. And to your point, the only way they will move to a 2nd best tall defensive option agaisnt him is if he starts to be a threat in the air.

I find it hard to agree with what you're saying as well jelly.

I think White is exactly what we are after, his last mark and goal proved he can take a contested mark, but which third defender in the league is going to be able to keep up with his pace, other than Toovey? Tooveys on our team!

I see Jesse White as more of a Gunston type player, coz he has that bag of tricks to play small and tall. I think Gunston is one of the most underrated players in the AFL. From what we saw last game, White has the same tricks, plus he can go in the ruck. I think you are overlooking Whites strengths and focusing on a minor weakness.

 

[lozza63]

Statistics lie. It was nothing like a final and drawing conclusions like this are fraught with danger. If White can make a meaningful contribution agains Freo's defence in round 1 then he will have my vote. Until then the jury is well and truly out.

Bold sweeping statement there jmac!
I feel i am entitled to draw similarities to a "finals like intensity" based on stats when a a game is played at these levels.

I am not sure that you see games the same way i do - i agree that drawing definitive conclusions about White based on this game is dangerous though - yet i'm also adding his performance for the Swans last season also - his stats look fairly good there too - averaged 1.3 goals and 12.7 touches per game.

He is much younger tha Big Q, whilst less credentialled has only played 70odd games and i feel positive about him.

Heard maxy giving him a big wrap on SEN just the other day too fwiw?

 

[Chilli Con Incarnate]

+

=

So you're saying we need to worry about Essendon poaching him?

 

[jmac70]

Bold sweeping statement there jmac!
I feel i am entitled to draw similarities to a "finals like intensity" based on stats when a a game is played at these levels.

I am not sure that you see games the same way i do - i agree that drawing definitive conclusions about White based on this game is dangerous though - yet i'm also adding his performance for the Swans last season also - his stats look fairly good there too - averaged 1.3 goals and 12.7 touches per game.

He is much younger tha Big Q, whilst less credentialled has only played 70odd games and i feel positive about him.

Heard maxy giving him a big wrap on SEN just the other day too fwiw?

I guess what I'm saying is that statistics can be used to prove or disprove just about anything. As for White I certainly hope he has turned the corner in his career and really plays well for us over the next 5 years. He certainly has the attributes to be a good player.

 

[Cyclops]

So you're saying we need to worry about Essendon poaching him?

Spoiler alert dude. I haven't got to the bit where James Hird rolls up to Heisenberg and demands the dope.

Actually does Ben Kennedy have a touch of the Pinkman's about him? Not the old BK, the 2014 short-haired version. "Yo Mr White, tap me the ball"