Preview JLT1: Dockers vs Collingdidnt, Monday 4th March

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wayToGo_

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Here's a little question to ponder on a rainy Wednesday arvo

If Belly and Rosco swapped roles tomorrow would Freo be better , worse or the same in 2019 ?
Put a guy who has never coached into an AFL Senior Coach role and a guy who has only ever been a coach (or player) into a Footy Manager role? Sounds like a well thought out idea. I was thinking I might switch roles with one of my surgeon mates this arvo and see how that goes.

Are you channeling a business consultant who likes the word "innovation" way too much? :)

Consultant: "So team, we're going to do something really fun and all switch roles for the day."
Me: "Um no. Get the **** out! Whoever is responsible for hiring this guy... it's time you pack up your things and join him."
 

tonygeeks

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Put a guy who has never coached into an AFL Senior Coach role and a guy who has only ever been a coach (or player) into a Footy Manager role? Sounds like a well thought out idea. I was thinking I might switch roles with one of my surgeon mates this arvo and see how that goes.

Are you channeling a business consultant who likes the word "innovation" way too much? :)

Consultant: "So team, we're going to do something really fun and all switch roles for the day."
Me: "Um no. Get the **** out! Whoever is responsible for hiring this guy... it's time you pack up your things and join him."
So ......... worse then ?

It's not an idea just a question


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arsesmart

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I’m not backing off from anything, running up score against a crap team is meaningless.

Ross has serious flaws in his style, yet 13 years into his senior career people still want tor pretend he’s about to unleash something new. When does the gloss come off?
As if I'd think you'd change your view on Lyon. It's pretty obvious from the confirmatory stat you must have gone searching for (then trying to gaslight it out of existence), to being completely dismissive to any contradictory evidence that narrative is deeply entrenched it ain't changing anytime soon.

I don't have to pretend anything. The jump in i50's is there to see. They indicate a change in style of play and supports what they've said they'd been working on. It also signifies an intent to move the ball more quickly into the F50, which is a good start to more attacking play. Obviously we're yet to see how that plays out.
 

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As if I'd think you'd change your view on Lyon. It's pretty obvious from the confirmatory stat you must have gone searching for (then trying to gaslight it out of existence), to being completely dismissive to any contradictory evidence that narrative is deeply entrenched it ain't changing anytime soon.
I cited a notable stat (the 2009 GF), you cherry picked in rebuttal. Another notable stat is the 50 point turn around in the 2014 SF. Repeated on Monday afternoon.

It is these notable failures that have kept Lyon from winning a premiership.

13 years.
 

Rion

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Absolutely, but it's fair to say in preseason of a new forward line and new game style, it's a work in progress.

It's also not unreasonable to assume the rapid ball movement (indicated by increase in i50's) shows intent, while the finesse of connection with forwards can take more time to build.

If it was easy every one would be doing it.
Yeah I agree, still too early to panic too much. I think the unfortunate reality though is that if it doesn't work well from the very first bounce of the season we're in for a very rocky ride (all 3 games to start the season are must-wins imo).

I'm weirdly feeling a bit optimistic this season though so I can see it working itself out and Hogan and Cox in particular really firing.
 

Rion

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Are you suggesting that on Monday we had midfield dominance over Collingwood?

We got high inside 50s despite getting killed in the middle. If we dominate the middle we might get cleaner i50s.
Not sure why you thought we got killed in the middle. They got some uncontested ball perhaps but we beat them in pretty much every other stat so at worst you could argue we split the chocolates.
 

arsesmart

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I cited a notable stat (the 2009 GF), you cherry picked in rebuttal. Another notable stat is the 50 point turn around in the 2014 SF. Repeated on Monday afternoon.

It is these notable failures that have kept Lyon from winning a premiership.

13 years.
For someone who selected a single game (a GF no less) from 10 years ago to draw conclusions about a preseason game your " you cherry picked in rebuttal" gave me a good chuckle (pot kettle).

Essentially I was going along with your lead, went to 2009, but also gave every game where the Saints totalled 60 or more i50's as 60 was the number from the weekend (incidentally the side they racked up 25 goals against was WC, who finished 11th, they also snagged 20 goals against the Pies that year who finished 4th, but it was with a relatively low i50 count). But really it was also to highlight the absurdity of your choice of stats.

Whether an isolated stat like i50's count in one or two games 10 years ago is proof of flaws to the way a coach goes about it, we could say at best is doubtful (and I'm being generous there). But the point at hand was that is a sign of attacking intent, which is much more supportable without any overlay.
 

FreoRicci

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I think what counts against Nyhuis is that we want everyone to contribute to offense when we have the ball. Ideally, you want 18 defenders we they have it and 18 forwards when we have it. I reckon the club doesn't want to return to the days of, say, Dawson when the moment we have the ball we are playing one short because Dawson doesn't contribute to offense. And that makes us easier to play against: Dawson's man causes an out-number elsewhere which makes the dreaded defensive transition harder.

I think the perception is that guys like Duman and Hughes are more useful because they are more effective at attacking football. What you lose in pure man-on-man defense you make up for when Duman or Hughes contribute further up the ground.

I don't know if I agree with this assessment, but I think that might be how it plays out at Match Committee.
Spurr was the small defender, hardly ‘skilful’ And his go to set was to bomb it away from the defence back in 2012. This over reliance on attackers from defence is silly. We need to some one on the smalls to allow space to happen. Duman doesn’t do that tbh. He’s another type such as Hughes. Betts, Greene etc will just kill us
 

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But the point at hand was that is a sign of attacking intent, which is much more supportable without any overlay.
Nonsense. It was a preseason match with nothing at stake and minimal pressure. That “attacking intent” failed to materialise on the scoreboard, which has been Lyon’s problem since day dot.

No one cares if we enter the fifty 100 or 200 times if it yields only 12 goals.

All the pollyannas are pretending that something will be unleashed / click in the real stuff, like it’s the back end of 2015 and Lyon will work some magic to pull us out of that decline.

Come on, aren’t you all sick of being mugged by reality?
 

arsesmart

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Yeah I agree, still too early to panic too much. I think the unfortunate reality though is that if it doesn't work well from the very first bounce of the season we're in for a very rocky ride (all 3 games to start the season are must-wins imo).

I'm weirdly feeling a bit optimistic this season though so I can see it working itself out and Hogan and Cox in particular really firing.
I'm thinking there's a big potential for Freo to be on a bit of a form/momentum rollercoaster this year. So while on paper the best chances seem to be in those early rounds, there could be a number of unexpected wins later if they get cranking.
 

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arsesmart

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Nonsense. It was a preseason match with nothing at stake and minimal pressure. That “attacking intent” failed to materialise on the scoreboard, which has been Lyon’s problem since day dot.

No one cares if we enter the fifty 100 or 200 times if it yields only 12 goals.

All the pollyannas are pretending that something will be unleashed / click in the real stuff, like it’s the back end of 2015 and Lyon will work some magic to pull us out of that decline.

Come on, aren’t you all sick of being mugged by reality?
So so far gaslight, pot kettle, name calling, you just keep bringing out the big guns.

Get as emotional as you like about it, but free of any overlay, the number of i50's can logically be seen as an intent to move the ball more rapidly and allow for a more attacking style of play. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

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So so far gaslight, pot kettle, name calling, you just keep bringing out the big guns.
Suck it up.

Get as emotional as you like about it, but free of any overlay, the number of i50's can logically be seen as an intent to move the ball more rapidly and allow for a more attacking style of play. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm not emotional at all. You dismiss examples of failures in the past as cherry picked and misleading yet want to cite a practice match as intent. This is known as recency bias.

What makes the last game more representative than Ross Lyon's entire career? Despite its similarities to his past failures, which you want to pretend are unrepresentative.
 

arsesmart

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Suck it up.


I'm not emotional at all. You dismiss examples of failures in the past as cherry picked and misleading yet want to cite a practice match as intent. This is known as recency bias.

What makes the last game more representative than Ross Lyon's entire career? Despite its similarities to his past failures, which you want to pretend are unrepresentative.
Your actions suggest you are driven by the emotional (name calling, shifting around etc). Hey you can do it all you want, it adds nothing to a coherent argument, but I'll point it out for reference.

"Failures" is a broadly subjective term, sure things might've turn out better had he done things differently as a coach, but who's to say, they may've turned out worse. One thing's for sure, the human brain always downplays luck in hindsight and edits events according to our pre-existing understanding, narrative and biases.

It's quite simple why I'm far convinced by your stats, your sample size is too small to effectively support your claims and likely selectively isolated to reaffirm your pov.

Viewing the i50's on the weekend is valid, if tentative, evidence that they are implementing a new game plan (especially in light of Freo's relatively low i50 averages since Lyon's been coach). Given that change, it can be independently juxtaposed against prior data.
 

Silversurfer

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Suck it up.


I'm not emotional at all. You dismiss examples of failures in the past as cherry picked and misleading yet want to cite a practice match as intent. This is known as recency bias.

What makes the last game more representative than Ross Lyon's entire career? Despite its similarities to his past failures, which you want to pretend are unrepresentative.
After reading the last few pages i have come to a few conclusions of my own. First one is you are a very negative person. Second is a suspicion that you are either silent alarm in disguise or that flog manager of that Kelly dude from Geelong.
 

Monument Hills

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I'm pretty sure I read in a thread a few years back that Silent Alarm is Clay's illegitimate offspring. That's why I think of him as Silent Snow.
 

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Your actions suggest you are driven by the emotional (name calling, shifting around etc). Hey you can do it all you want, it adds nothing to a coherent argument, but I'll point it out for reference.

"Failures" is a broadly subjective term, sure things might've turn out better had he done things differently as a coach, but who's to say, they may've turned out worse. One thing's for sure, the human brain always downplays luck in hindsight and edits events according to our pre-existing understanding, narrative and biases.

It's quite simple why I'm far convinced by your stats, your sample size is too small to effectively support your claims and likely selectively isolated to reaffirm your pov.

Viewing the i50's on the weekend is valid, if tentative, evidence that they are implementing a new game plan (especially in light of Freo's relatively low i50 averages since Lyon's been coach). Given that change, it can be independently juxtaposed against prior data.
Yawn. This discussion is boring. It is a rehash of all the incorrect opinions I have read for the past five years.

We will revisit this in the regular season when it is more clearly apparent you are wrong.
 

arsesmart

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Clay will never let you get the last say Smart fella.
You make a very convincing argument though!
Clay doesn't rate RTB
Cheers. Yeah I kinda figured on both counts, pretty familiar type around the traps. I think they must all go to the same website HowtoWinanArgument.com and learn all the same parlour tricks.
 

wild side

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Cheers. Yeah I kinda figured on both counts, pretty familiar type around the traps. I think they must all go to the same website HowtoWinanArgument.com and learn all the same parlour tricks.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't matter clay is here to make everyone doubt their own virtues. He comes across as the Leigh Matthews of the Freo Board, but really I don't think he is that enlightened.
However, your point about more Inside 50's from freo is pertinent, and I reckon they'll be working on the delivery.
If Jesse continues to get 6 possessions, I'll be unenlightened!
 
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