Game Day JLT2 - Carlton vs Collingwood - Monday 11th March 2.10PM @ Morwell - Final Team Post #777

JustaBattler

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A good old fashioned Yorker, above. ;)
Truth is I'm seriously over remnants of the past, I want to see a completely new era heralded in; now, the sooner the better, yesterday if possible. That includes MK, MM, and Simmo. Love em, but I want to say goodbye.
Time will sort all that out.:thumbsu:
 

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Farktherest

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I find that strange, given you would prefer to let them have another hitout at any level this time of the year
Not really...no opportunity in season for them to experience being on the bench with the afl side.

They will be with the vfl team mostly this season so the practice match is similar plus theres another vfl practice match next week they'll play in anyway.
 

Farktherest

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Interesting. I saw a top 4 side easily especially adding Roughead Beams Elliott & Moore to last years GF side
Anyone who doesn't have them in top 4 is probably bias against them really and have Carlton tinted glasses on.

Superstar midfield that bats really deep and dangerous forwards like de goey, Stephenson, whe and Elliott. They run teams ragged like Richmond do.
 

therubbernub

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Dow is interesting for me. Stood right next to him on Saturday and still a skinny boy. Even LOB has muscled up more. I think this year might be a bit of struggle for him after a poor pre season.

Will be a star and has all the attributes but I’m not sure he has anywhere near the body yet.
he seems to have plenty of heft in the legs, so i assume you are referring to upper body?
 

therubbernub

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IMO we are a minimum 2 years away from what Collingwood are producing. You can’t beat experience, mature bodies and learning to play as a group. It takes time but we have the talent

I think we are doing well but patience required
so next year for the Grand final then- sweet!
 

Macca43

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Dow is interesting for me. Stood right next to him on Saturday and still a skinny boy. Even LOB has muscled up more. I think this year might be a bit of struggle for him after a poor pre season.

Will be a star and has all the attributes but I’m not sure he has anywhere near the body yet.
I didn't see a lot of the game but what I did see Dow impressed (except for that shank shot for goal under no pressure early in the first). The extra space around the centre bounce seems to suit him, his hands are clean and he seems prepared to take the game on with a burst from a stoppage.

If he can emulate SPS's second year (handful of 20 plus possession games and averaging somewhere North of 15 touches a game) I will be happy enough.
 

gbatman

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I thought we did well, Collingwood have one of the better lists in the league, their midfield is really deep, it's stacked with natural skilled mids. They are a mature team with the right sprinkling of maturing young players, should be serious flag contenders this season. Obviously not a serious contest but things to like and dislike.

Thought we defended well as a team for quite a lot and competed adequately. Thought we held them despite them dominating the midfield for a lot. Did not like how we have all these tall forwards yet their defenders intercepted a lot of our kicks. Bad kicking and poor aerial competing at times. We still have ways to go in figuring out our forward structure.

Our backline looked good at hanging on but it doesn't look anything special when we get the ball. We don't have that run and damaging kicking.

Murphy - Statistically good but not super damaging.
Simpson - Thought he turned his effort up but wasn't overly damaging, disposal was nothing special but he's often like that early.
Cripps - He's gearing up for a massive year, winning the ball and kicking goals.
Walsh - Already one of our better players. Pretty good game. He will just keep going and going. Needs very little developing as his natural way of playing is already there.
McKay - Poor game last week, much much better this week. Liked him in the ruck. Made some mistakes but so be it. Keep leading up.
Ed Curnow - Has not been anything special, thought he was a little sloppy, went to ground too much.
SPS - Was very good and is going forward well as a player. Just seems to keep cracking in and going hard. Nice skills.
Cuningham - Pretty good game. Can build on it but pretty good. He's a good user of the ball. Happy with the stats.
Thomas - Make no mistake, he's best 22. He just plays the game like a mature aged player. Goes hard, knows where to be and how to run. Competes well.
C Curnow - Pretty average game, opponent played well and he just didn't lead up at the ball enough. Luckily we know he can play.
Jones - Did some good things but he falls over and goes to ground far too much. Some good things and some real clumsy things. Needs to tidy this up.
Fisher - Seemed to go missing. Lots of kicking under pressure. Not one of his best but he had patches where he was pretty good. Still nothing special.
Weitering - Continued some really good form. Neat and tidy defending.
Setterfield - Was a little untidy at times and real good in others. He's not the mature finished product yet but he will get there.
Plowman - Typical Plowman game, did some good things and was mostly solid. Just made some mistakes which made him look poor.
Dow - I don't mind him when playing the ball, but I will keep saying it. The defensive side of his game is poor. The effort he puts into pressure is poor. His ball handling was hit and miss.
Garlett - He keeps improving and I liked some of what he did. Thought he looked solid and should be persisted with.
Phillips - Competed ok. Playing against the league's best ruck who touched Kreuzer up last year so can't be too harsh, Grundy will beat most of his opponents.
Gibbons - A really quiet game but what he's doing is new and he needs time. Like how he moves, want to see him persisted with.
McGovern - This i guess is what you call poor match fitness and underdone. Jumps at the ball, doesn't get near it. Want to see him leading up at the ball carrier taking marks and don't. Gets beaten and out marked too much. Doesn't look fit. Did some nice things but nothing to get excited about. Fair way to go to get excited about just yet.
Polson - A couple of nice things but used it poorly and wasn't involved much.
Newman - Made some sloppy mistakes and looked shaky under pressure.
 

Macca43

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I thought we did well, Collingwood have one of the better lists in the league, their midfield is really deep, it's stacked with natural skilled mids. They are a mature team with the right sprinkling of maturing young players, should be serious flag contenders this season. Obviously not a serious contest but things to like and dislike.

Thought we defended well as a team for quite a lot and competed adequately. Thought we held them despite them dominating the midfield for a lot. Did not like how we have all these tall forwards yet their defenders intercepted a lot of our kicks. Bad kicking and poor aerial competing at times. We still have ways to go in figuring out our forward structure.

Our backline looked good at hanging on but it doesn't look anything special when we get the ball. We don't have that run and damaging kicking.

Murphy - Statistically good but not super damaging.
Simpson - Thought he turned his effort up but wasn't overly damaging, disposal was nothing special but he's often like that early.
Cripps - He's gearing up for a massive year, winning the ball and kicking goals.
Walsh - Already one of our better players. Pretty good game. He will just keep going and going. Needs very little developing as his natural way of playing is already there.
McKay - Poor game last week, much much better this week. Liked him in the ruck. Made some mistakes but so be it. Keep leading up.
Ed Curnow - Has not been anything special, thought he was a little sloppy, went to ground too much.
SPS - Was very good and is going forward well as a player. Just seems to keep cracking in and going hard. Nice skills.
Cuningham - Pretty good game. Can build on it but pretty good. He's a good user of the ball. Happy with the stats.
Thomas - Make no mistake, he's best 22. He just plays the game like a mature aged player. Goes hard, knows where to be and how to run. Competes well.
C Curnow - Pretty average game, opponent played well and he just didn't lead up at the ball enough. Luckily we know he can play.
Jones - Did some good things but he falls over and goes to ground far too much. Some good things and some real clumsy things. Needs to tidy this up.
Fisher - Seemed to go missing. Lots of kicking under pressure. Not one of his best but he had patches where he was pretty good. Still nothing special.
Weitering - Continued some really good form. Neat and tidy defending.
Setterfield - Was a little untidy at times and real good in others. He's not the mature finished product yet but he will get there.
Plowman - Typical Plowman game, did some good things and was mostly solid. Just made some mistakes which made him look poor.
Dow - I don't mind him when playing the ball, but I will keep saying it. The defensive side of his game is poor. The effort he puts into pressure is poor. His ball handling was hit and miss.
Garlett - He keeps improving and I liked some of what he did. Thought he looked solid and should be persisted with.
Phillips - Competed ok. Playing against the league's best ruck who touched Kreuzer up last year so can't be too harsh, Grundy will beat most of his opponents.
Gibbons - A really quiet game but what he's doing is new and he needs time. Like how he moves, want to see him persisted with.
McGovern - This i guess is what you call poor match fitness and underdone. Jumps at the ball, doesn't get near it. Want to see him leading up at the ball carrier taking marks and don't. Gets beaten and out marked too much. Doesn't look fit. Did some nice things but nothing to get excited about. Fair way to go to get excited about just yet.
Polson - A couple of nice things but used it poorly and wasn't involved much.
Newman - Made some sloppy mistakes and looked shaky under pressure.
If this is the review we get when you think we did well I would hate to see the one when we played poorly.
 

Arr0w

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Not really...no opportunity in season for them to experience being on the bench with the afl side.

They will be with the vfl team mostly this season so the practice match is similar plus theres another vfl practice match next week they'll play in anyway.
Surely they could have left it for the first VFL bye?
 

cfc05

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Anyone: What was the point of leaving Stocker on the bench for the entire game?
Why we would deprive Stocker, a young man with fitness knocks, the chance to play a full game on the weekend (in the VFL) is bewildering.

What experience did he garner from his trip to the black lung capital of Australia?
Heard on good authority, from people close to those involved they expected to play in the last quarter.

For a coaching committee that prides itself on communication, it would be horrendous if Stocker did turn up to the game expecting to play 15-20 mins. If he had told family and friends he was likely to play limited minutes. As family and friends, would 100% travel to watch a mate play limited minutes for the first time in a Carlton jumper. If any kid has told his network he is likely to play limited minutes, he will then have countless of his closest support network leaving angry when he doesn't!

This is not good for anyone. Not only is the kids leaving disappointed and potentially embarrassed. Everyone he usually confides in and turns to for support or a pick me up, is understandably angry and disenchanted as well.

I really hope it was a miscommunication between Liam and his network, and the coaching staff didn't change that decision during the day! In today's age, communication and mental awareness are crucial. You would hope our coaching staff haven't left a young kid vulnerable and down on confidence on the eve of round 1 as a result of miscommunication.

It seems trivial (15 minutes in a JLT game), however it is the sort of thing that can snow ball. Especially when the young mans support network are equally disillusioned and frustrated with the leadership at the club.

On what was an overall very positive day for the club, this could be one of the minor negatives which I hope it hit on the head immediately.
 

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Funk

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I can remember Kreuzer playing in an AFL match - not so much Phillips if we are talking fitness over the last two years!!!....however the only real knock I have on Phillips is the fact that he cant run with his opponent- Grundy torched him in ground coverage - he was a huge part of Collingwood's 'extra' man in multiple link ups through between the arcs - Phillips ( literally) allowed Collingwood an extra midfielder for most of the match - no way Kreuzer would allow that to happen - one way or another Grundy would be reduced in effectiveness if he was playing on Kreuzer.
You need to watch more Collingwood games - Grundy’s running torches everyone he plays against.
 

murphster

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Is it just me, or is the Amos led defence standing up like they did in his first 2 years? They dont look the slickest defence out there but they somehow do themselves proud and stop big scores. Back then we had no forward line and no midfield. If the defence can keep it together -especially with the return of Marchbank and Williamson, then we have something to build on
Nail on the head with this one Rubnub. Our whole team defence looked like 2017 imo which is the best news I’ve heard so far this year, add Marchbank and Willo early in the year and look out.

If we can play team defence like 17’ with the players we now have at our disposal we are seriously going to beat a lot of teams and win those close ones we lost in 2017. This was the best sign yet pointing to a big up swing in performance for this year. If we manage to put 18 behind us and just carry on like it is the end of 17 the sky is the limit imo. Was hoping Amos would have this effect and he hasn’t disappointed as yet, wasn’t sure if the terrible performance last year had more to do with him moving or Docherty going out, I hoped to hell it was the former and we will dominate if it is.

As to the massive discrepancy in disposals I think this had a lot to do with the way we defended the ground, we really pushed across hard when they tried to switch and stymied there main mode of attack, forcing them to keep going sideways, backwards or long down the line to the out number, hence there high disposal and mark numbers. The fact we beat them at contested possessions and clearances with such a young midfield was fantastic for us and our future, SPS could turn into one of the great indigenous players we all admire so much like Burgoyne and even one Peter Matera, just has the work ethic and natural ability to be a champion of our game, what a difference a full pre season huh.

We also ended up ahead in inside 50s another major step for us as I don’t think we won this stat once last year and we have won it against Bumbers and the Filth, great signs for a big year ahead for the resurgent and inspirational Old Dark Navy Blues.

P.S. see the respect I showed the enemy by capitalising there names.🤙🏽😂👍🏽
 
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Jimmae

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Jimmae. Who said I was referring to you, although in regards to Phillips I think your continual criticism of him is over the top.

Not sure what blind optimism has to do with it? No one is saying Phillips is a star but last week he was good and today average. Kruezer is easily the better ruck when fit but give the guy a break. I’d also like to assess him more when he can get a good run of games under him. Played less than 40 games. Not much for a ruck. Still a lot to learn
He's 27, and you used the exact same language to describe my critique of him as you did when you were speaking generally. I've already said my piece, and I'll leave it at that. :thumbsu:

Here he is again but you totally missed my point

Pretty subtle reference, but fair play. :thumbsu:

Phillips wasn't just getting miles in the legs FYI, he was getting dominated by a vastly superior player, much like what would happy against Gawn, and MK. He's not a modern ruck.

Dow is interesting for me. Stood right next to him on Saturday and still a skinny boy. Even LOB has muscled up more. I think this year might be a bit of struggle for him after a poor pre season.

Will be a star and has all the attributes but I’m not sure he has anywhere near the body yet.
Dow is incredibly lean, so don't take much stock in his arms looking skinny. As you've seen across the list, the diet change typically results in that.

Also, it's really easy to confuse fattening the arms and packing the glycogen stores there within versus the real gain in muscle an individual might have. I think you'd be pretty surprised to compare Dow and Lachie's DEXA scan results side-by-side over the last 18 months.

Away from that, both are not being used properly on the outside. Dow turned every possession he had into a disposal despite only having 3 uncontested possessions. Part of that is Collingwood's mobility and pressure skewing the contested stats because they're getting a hand in, but another part of that is Dow routinely getting ignored as an outside option.

FWIW - Kreuz and Phillips marking stats last year were almost identical.

Approx 2 marks per game (0.4 contested).

Anyone who thinks Kreuz’s marking is a big upgrade on Phillips is dreaming.
What those stats do not show is how effective MK is when you let him run at the ball carrier, something that he doesn't do very well in our current structure unless he's dropped in the square.

Sadly, the same could be said for virtually every attacking tall in our team, which points the blame squarely at how the tactics are deployed.

The scenario your describing lends itself more to being one in which Phillips, or Lobbe, assume the role of main ruckman; whereby it is MK that might still be a very handy backup or relief ruck. Not the other way around.
You've completely misread what was written, but I suppose that's you living up to your moniker.

There's a reason Phillips gets games ahead of lobbe..
Beyond what chronic injuries each are carrying (and they certainly are), I'd love to know what you think that is. For mine, it's a total failure to understand the important aspects of the modern ruck role.
 

murphster

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For all those knocking Phillips who I thought competed well against one of the premier ruckmen ask yourself about Murphy’s performance (some of which have Murph in their name or profile pic)

Handballs to stationary targets half a metre away, woeful use of the football shadow of him former self
My profile name is because it is my name not because of Marc Murphy, not that I have criticised either as yet.
 

Soapy V

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He's 27, and you used the exact same language to describe my critique of him as you did when you were speaking generally. I've already said my piece, and I'll leave it at that. :thumbsu:


Pretty subtle reference, but fair play. :thumbsu:

Phillips wasn't just getting miles in the legs FYI, he was getting dominated by a vastly superior player, much like what would happy against Gawn, and MK. He's not a modern ruck.


Dow is incredibly lean, so don't take much stock in his arms looking skinny. As you've seen across the list, the diet change typically results in that.

Also, it's really easy to confuse fattening the arms and packing the glycogen stores there within versus the real gain in muscle an individual might have. I think you'd be pretty surprised to compare Dow and Lachie's DEXA scan results side-by-side over the last 18 months.

Away from that, both are not being used properly on the outside. Dow turned every possession he had into a disposal despite only having 3 uncontested possessions. Part of that is Collingwood's mobility and pressure skewing the contested stats because they're getting a hand in, but another part of that is Dow routinely getting ignored as an outside option.


What those stats do not show is how effective MK is when you let him run at the ball carrier, something that he doesn't do very well in our current structure unless he's dropped in the square.

Sadly, the same could be said for virtually every attacking tall in our team, which points the blame squarely at how the tactics are deployed.


You've completely misread what was written, but I suppose that's you living up to your moniker.


Beyond what chronic injuries each are carrying (and they certainly are), I'd love to know what you think that is. For mine, it's a total failure to understand the important aspects of the modern ruck role.
All I’ll say about Dow is he looks ridiculously skinny. In comparison to LOB Fisher DC Willo & Walsh who I have seen up close recently he looks skinny. The others look lean but still strong.

Just an observation
 

Jimmae

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All I’ll say about Dow is he looks ridiculously skinny. In comparison to LOB Fisher DC Willo & Walsh who I have seen up close recently he looks skinny. The others look lean but still strong.

Just an observation
Ultimately I am concerned with his maximal (and functional) upper body strength long term, but he'd be 185 and 83 right now. He's in a good space.
 

Blue and Blue

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He's 27, and you used the exact same language to describe my critique of him as you did when you were speaking generally. I've already said my piece, and I'll leave it at that. :thumbsu:


Pretty subtle reference, but fair play. :thumbsu:

Phillips wasn't just getting miles in the legs FYI, he was getting dominated by a vastly superior player, much like what would happy against Gawn, and MK. He's not a modern ruck.


Dow is incredibly lean, so don't take much stock in his arms looking skinny. As you've seen across the list, the diet change typically results in that.

Also, it's really easy to confuse fattening the arms and packing the glycogen stores there within versus the real gain in muscle an individual might have. I think you'd be pretty surprised to compare Dow and Lachie's DEXA scan results side-by-side over the last 18 months.

Away from that, both are not being used properly on the outside. Dow turned every possession he had into a disposal despite only having 3 uncontested possessions. Part of that is Collingwood's mobility and pressure skewing the contested stats because they're getting a hand in, but another part of that is Dow routinely getting ignored as an outside option.


What those stats do not show is how effective MK is when you let him run at the ball carrier, something that he doesn't do very well in our current structure unless he's dropped in the square.

Sadly, the same could be said for virtually every attacking tall in our team, which points the blame squarely at how the tactics are deployed.


You've completely misread what was written, but I suppose that's you living up to your moniker.


Beyond what chronic injuries each are carrying (and they certainly are), I'd love to know what you think that is. For mine, it's a total failure to understand the important aspects of the modern ruck role.
Gee whiz mate....A for effort but Z for ease of reading....:p
 

Mr_Plow

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Ultimately I am concerned with his maximal (and functional) upper body strength long term, but he'd be 185 and 83 right now. He's in a good space.
I think he struggles to maintain the gains he makes over summer. Nobody retains all the gains they've made, but he seems to have lost a greater proportion compared to others, from a distance.

Was the first thing I noticed in that pre-game interview.

It's going to take a few more pre-seasons to fully get there.
 

Jimmae

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I think he struggles to maintain the gains he makes over summer. Nobody retains all the gains they've made, but he seems to have lost a greater proportion compared to others, from a distance.

Was the first thing I noticed in that pre-game interview.

It's going to take a few more pre-seasons to fully get there.
Again, I'm not fussed when you break down how much of that is likely glycogen depletion. It's pretty obvious they've gone down tuning a low-carb approach to help with maximising recovery and aerobic capacity, and the first thing you see go skinny on most men is the butt, face, thighs and upper arm. Visceral fat declines as well, but that's harder to spot unless you're watching the waistline closely.

Even in road cyclists and marathon runners, glycogen stores halve.
 

Mr_Plow

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Again, I'm not fussed when you break down how much of that is likely glycogen depletion. It's pretty obvious they've gone down tuning a low-carb approach to help with maximising recovery and aerobic capacity, and the first thing you see go skinny on most men is the butt, face, thighs and upper arm.

Even in road cyclists and marathon runners, glycogen stores halve.
Me sitting on 1500-1800kcals for the last couple of weeks agrees with you.
 
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