John Winston Howard - what is his legacy?

[Doss]

I don't want to turn this into a racist shitfight, but I reckon the Somalis have been even worse at integrating, and that's not that surprising when you examine Sudanese/South Sudanese and Somali culture.

Throughout its history, Sudan (pre-2011) struggled with ethnic and religious conflicts. Nonetheless, the whole country never went into civil war and the state remained functional, since the more stable northern half was quite ethnically/religiously homogenous (Afro-Arab Muslim). Even the unstable southern half has various ethnic groups one could find themselves in.

Why? Because Somalia didn't have ethnic problems as such (in fact, it was a very homogenous nation) - no, they had problems with clannism. This takes ethnic issues and ramps them up to 11 because clans are obviously much smaller than ethnic groups. With ethnic groups/religions, at least there are lots of people you could potentially trust in your own country. With clans, even in your own country, the man walking down the street could be a potential enemy! One can only imagine how paranoid that would make you, and indeed their 1980's dictator (Siad Barre) became paranoid. So paranoid in fact, that he increasingly favoured his clan and suppressed civil liberties and perceived dissent with extreme brutality. Well, cultures of paranoia lead to cultures of violence very quickly, because paranoid people think that anyone could kill them at any time, and that they have to strike first - and so, the Somali Civil War was born.

Can you imagine leaving an environment like that, and trying to integrate into Australia? You'd wonder if you were on the same planet anymore, TBH. Moreover, old cultural habits die hard. So you're now surrounded by people whom you know aren't part of your clan (maybe not even your fellow Somalis), while trying to survive in a strange community.

None of this justifies antisocial behaviour, but looking at the context in which it was formed, it's not surprising.

TBH, importing Somalis into a developed nation and expecting them to integrate while being surrounded by potential hostiles was unrealistic, and showed a lack of understanding of Somali culture.

Of course, humanitarian concerns mean that it's morally and ethically difficult to just dump them somewhere, so you'd have to import whole Somali clans, place them in their own area over the short term, before gradually socialising them with the society around them. I hate segregation, but that's the only way it could consistently work IMO. If you can't do that, they'll have to be diverted to countries with stronger clan networks.

There is a actually a lot of very interesting subject matter here, but I do get the impression this person in question was not approaching the whole topic from anywhere near that nuanced a position.

 

[DaRick]

There is a actually a lot of very interesting subject matter here, but I do get the impression this person in question was not approaching the whole topic from anywhere near that nuanced a position.

Oh, I knew full well that they weren't, just noting that the Sudanese are IMO not necessarily the most poorly-integrated group in Melbourne, if not Australia (the Southern Sudanese up here do appear to integrate a bit better, ironically enough).

 

[imadodgyumpire]

I can cop the statement that Howard's government was stable enough. One PM for almost 12 years, along with one Treasurer and Foreign Minister. Certainly that sort of constant personnel-wise has lacked in any government since.

Stable doesn't equal good, however, and stable is also not a legacy which is what this thread is actually about.

But even then, who cares in hindsight?

What's the benefit? I'd say not much or nothing at all.

It's only superficial. If they're a POS (Like Howard and his government was), then it's a weakness.

 

[Kwality]

But even then, who cares in hindsight?

What's the benefit? I'd say not much or nothing at all.

It's only superficial. If they're a POS (Like Howard and his government was), then it's a weakness.

Guess you chose to ignore the money in the bank the Howard government left, its gone.

 

[Doss]

By flogging off public assets and outsourcing systems left, right and centre? Like in aged care for example?

Yeah awesome win for the country in the long term, that one.

 

[nobbyiscool]

“In 1984, when Labor held government under Bob Hawke, the intake of Sudanese refugees for resettlement was zero. During the ensuing decade just 34 Sudanese refugees were resettled in Australia. The intake jumped to 354 in 1994-95, heralding a rapidly increasing flow of Sudanese every year, rising to 6147 in 2003-2004.”

The 2nd Sudanese Civil war didn't really start in earnest til 1985. Why the * would we have been taking refugees from there in 84?

 

[Gough]

One of Howard's lasting legacies was his dicking around with the Marriage Act in 2004 making the equality debate even more torturous.

 

[DaRick]

The 2nd Sudanese Civil war didn't really start in earnest til 1985. Why the fu** would we have been taking refugees from there in 84?

I don't wish to be a pedant, but didn't it start earlier?

Off the top of my head, Sudan swung between being a dictatorship and an unstable democracy, so I could see a few political refugees thrown in the mix too.

 

[nobbyiscool]

I don't wish to be a pedant, but didn't it start earlier?

Off the top of my head, Sudan swung between being a dictatorship and an unstable democracy, so I could see a few political refugees thrown in the mix too.

There were 2 different civil wars, with obviously a lot of instability remaining in between, before the country's "divorce" in (I think) 2005.

 

[DaRick]

There were 2 different civil wars, with obviously a lot of instability remaining in between, before the country's "divorce" in (I think) 2005.

The separation was in 2005; the divorce was in 2011.

I know this because I remember speaking to a Sudanese friend of mine back in around 2010 regarding South Sudan's upcoming secession (he was a northerner from Khartoum FWIW).

He told me he was personally against it, not because he personally hated the South Sudanese, but because he believed their leaders were tricking them into a situation which wasn't necessarily in their best interests.

The southerners were treated brutally by the northerners, but the train-wreck which has been South Sudan since 2011 soured me on the idea of secession - before that, I naively believed that the South Sudanese would put together something resembling a functioning country without the north's malign influence.

Kurdistan will go down a similar path if that place ever becomes independent IMO, but that's another discussion for another time.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

By flogging off public assets and outsourcing systems left, right and centre? Like in aged care for example?

Yeah awesome win for the country in the long term, that one.

CES
power generation and transmission
prison security and management
telecommunications infrastructure
aged care
disability accommodation
management of public transport

sooooooo much winning when privatized

 

[Fryman]

The 2nd Sudanese Civil war didn't really start in earnest til 1985. Why the fu** would we have been taking refugees from there in 84?

From 84-94 we took in 36.

 

[Doss]

One of Howard's lasting legacies was his dicking around with the Marriage Act in 2004 making the equality debate even more torturous.

I also hark back to the apology to the stolen generations from Rudd in 2008.

There were five living former PMs at the time.

Whitlam was there at the apology and enthusiastically supportive. Ditto Fraser. Ditto Hawke. Ditto Keating.

Not Honest John, though. And he's never shown even a hint of regret or introspection over that in the 13 years since. I think it says all you need to know about the man.

 

[DaRick]

I also hark back to the apology to the stolen generations from Rudd in 2008.

There were five living former PMs at the time.

Whitlam was there at the apology and enthusiastically supportive. Ditto Fraser. Ditto Hawke. Ditto Keating.

Not Honest John, though. And he's never shown even a hint of regret or introspection over that in the 13 years since. I think it says all you need to know about the man.

I guess Aborigines weren't normal enough for ol' John Boy.

 

[Kwality]

By flogging off public assets and outsourcing systems left, right and centre? Like in aged care for example?

Yeah awesome win for the country in the long term, that one.

That was unique to the Howard Government, you arent that ignorant.

 

[Kwality]

I also hark back to the apology to the stolen generations from Rudd in 2008.

There were five living former PMs at the time.

Whitlam was there at the apology and enthusiastically supportive. Ditto Fraser. Ditto Hawke. Ditto Keating.

Not Honest John, though. And he's never shown even a hint of regret or introspection over that in the 13 years since. I think it says all you need to know about the man.

You sure thats all there is to it ?

 

[Doss]

That was unique to the Howard Government, you arent that ignorant.

No of course not, it happened under Hawke and Keating too. He ramped it up though.

You sure thats all there is to it ?

Yes actually I do. He genuinely believed no apology was necessary and was a woke distraction.

 

[kickazz]

Unaffordable housing.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Guess you chose to ignore the money in the bank the Howard government left, its gone.

By the end we had a structural deficit as well.

That money was never going to last, when howard left we were bleeding money.

 

[Kwality]

By the end we had a structural deficit as well.

That money was never going to last, when howard left we were bleeding money.

He was spending money he had, e.g middle class welfare. When we ran out of money, politicians on both sides didnt have the guts to turn off what we could no longer involve. Thats the real answer, not one or t'óther.

Did someone teach you that view Stan?

 

[Number37]

He was spending money he had, e.g middle class welfare. When we ran out of money, politicians on both sides didnt have the guts to turn off what we could no longer involve. Thats the real answer, not one or t'óther.

Did someone teach you that view Stan?

If a gambling addict spends their pay on gambling instead of paying their rent, they are gambling money they had?

 

[Kwality]

If a gambling addict spends their pay on gambling instead of paying their rent, they are gambling money they had?

You can obfuscate all you like, & dullards wont recognise reality.
Better we learn from mistakes & dont repeat them. Having money for a rainy day ...... many things Howard did wrong, this is not one of them.

 

[Rotayjay]

Howard started Australia on the path towards a country where the few, and not the many, can live the 'comfortable and relaxed' life he spoke about in 1996.

When good, secure jobs are only available to a minority of workers, and a roof over your head is unaffordable, life is decidedly less relaxed.

 

[Number37]

You can obfuscate all you like, & dullards wont recognise reality.
Better we learn from mistakes & dont repeat them. Having money for a rainy day ...... many things Howard did wrong, this is not one of them.

You're spot on, 'dullards won't recognise reality'...

 

[E Shed]

Howard started Australia on the path towards a country where the few, and not the many, can live the 'comfortable and relaxed' life he spoke about in 1996.

When good, secure jobs are only available to a minority of workers, and a roof over your head is unaffordable, life is decidedly less relaxed.

This is what I don't understand about neo-liberal economics.
If you privatise everything, freeze wages, take away workers power and entitlements, gut social safety nets and hand all the money saved to the already wealthy you end up with what we have now. A large and growing larger underclass. Homelessness is becoming a real problem, people can't afford housing, let alone all the other basics.
As a result crime, drug use, violence, health outcomes, all the bad stuff is on the rise and the problems cost way more to fix than if you'd not engineered the problems in the first place.
And yet we still have idiots in the current government wanting more of it.