Johncock in the midfield is interesting

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DaveW

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#2
I don't know what you mean by pushed out. It's not as if the midfield is restricted to the four guys who start in the centre square.

Look at Brisbane. You could probably describe the majority of their team as midfielders.

Johncock moving to the midfield has been on the cards for some time. Just like McLeod was never always going to remain at half back flank.

I expect the likes of Johncock, McLeod, Ricciuto, Goodwin, Burton, Edwards will all get various amounts of time in the midfield and up forward. And in some cases in defence too. Heck throw in Bode, Ladhams, Reilly, Gallagher et al as midfielders/forwards as well.

Stenglein would remain as the number one tagger. I don't see Johncock taking that role.
 

maccas_no1

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#3
What I like about our team is that we have a number of players who are cabable of playing in a number of positions around the ground, it gives our side a bit of flexibity, in the case of injuries;)
 

ok.crows

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Thread starter #5
Originally posted by DaveW
I don't know what you mean by pushed out.
I mean in terms of gametime spent in the midfield.

If Johncock's gametime spent in the midfield is going to go from about 0% to about 40%, that means that another players midfield time gets reduced by 40%, or two others get reduced by 20%, or something similar.

You can't put the whole side in the midfield.
 

DaveW

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#6
Originally posted by maccas_no1
What about Shirley???What do you see his role being this season?????
Secondary tagger. Or maybe a more aggressive midfield role when he's not opposed to a particularly awesome player.
 

DaveW

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#7
Originally posted by ok.crows
I mean in terms of gametime spent in the midfield.

If Johncock's gametime spent in the midfield is going to go from about 0% to about 40%, that means that another players midfield time gets reduced by 40%, or two others get reduced by 20%, or something similar.

You can't put the whole side in the midfield.
I can't see it being particularly noticable. It just means more rotation. Extra relief given to other midfielders might make them more damaging in the time they do spend in the middle.

And don't forget that in our last premiership match one Mark Bickley was playing.
 

Stiffy_18

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#8
Originally posted by ok.crows
http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/footy03/story_page/0,8747,9008863%5E21544,00.html

Who is potentially going to be pushed out of the midfield ?

Stenglein - to the backlines ?

Burton - as another marking option up forward ?
Why would he push anyone out of the midfield??????:confused:

At the end of last year we lost Mark Bickley to retirement so one would suggest that we need another midfielder to cover the loss of Bicks and Stiffy fits the bill.

However, if pre-season games are anything to go by, Johncock will rotate with Roo through the midfield and forward line. I must admit I love the idea because with the rotation of these 2 I don't think we lose anything in the forward line and midfield would not lose much either.
 

Stiffy_18

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#9
Originally posted by maccas_no1
What about Shirley???What do you see his role being this season?????
Struggling to make the 22 when everyone is fit an firing.

I see Shirley as a secondary tagger.;)
 

Tas

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#10
I think its good to have a large number of players who can rotate through the midfield, it gives you alot more options and allows the team to not fatigue as much if the workload is spread around.

He can still play in his traditional position but might become part of the rotation to spread the midfield work over a larger group of players. Even If he only plays 5 odd minutes in the midfield it would take a huge load off all the other players allowing them to be fresher for the entire match.

It is alot more common to see forward pocket players end up in the midfield as part of the midfield rotation. Those two positions are often used as an extended bench by some clubs. ;)
 

macca23

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#11
Originally posted by Tas
I think its good to have a large number of players who can rotate through the midfield, it gives you alot more options and allows the team to not fatigue as much if the workload is spread around.

Teams that have a lot of options rotating through the mid-field usually finish over the top of teams with much lesser mid-field options, which illustrates your point.

I remember reading somewhere at the end of last year where Pagan was saying that the major reason Carlton were run right over in the last quarter of almost every game last year was that too few had to do to much in the mid-field, due to a lack of numbers to rotate through the mid-field as compared to their opposition.

Johncock is an excellent addition to the mid-field because apart from being quick and skilful, he does have some of the Bickley type courage and hardness about him as well.

Wind the clock 5 years forward and IMO he'll be our premier mid-fielder.
 

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Stiffy_18

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#12
Originally posted by macca23
Teams that have a lot of options rotating through the mid-field usually finish over the top of teams with much lesser mid-field options, which illustrates your point.

I remember reading somewhere at the end of last year where Pagan was saying that the major reason Carlton were run right over in the last quarter of almost every game last year was that too few had to do to much in the mid-field, due to a lack of numbers to rotate through the mid-field as compared to their opposition.

Johncock is an excellent addition to the mid-field because apart from being quick and skilful, he does have some of the Bickley type courage and hardness about him as well.

Wind the clock 5 years forward and IMO he'll be our premier mid-fielder.
Spot on especially with the last point.

The beauty with Johncock is that he can play equally well anywhere and as I said rotating him with Roo would not have a "negative" effect on midfield or forward line. Both of them have great ball-winning ability and hardness and both of them are goal kickers when they are playing in the forward line. IMHO, this would be an exceptional move by the club.

In 5 years time Johncock and Reilly will be our premier-midfielders. However, we do need to stock up on some midfield talent in the upcoming draft.
 

macca23

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#13
Originally posted by Stiffy_18

In 5 years time Johncock and Reilly will be our premier-midfielders. However, we do need to stock up on some midfield talent in the upcoming draft.
Johncock will be a cross between Roo and Macca, while Reilly will play a hard running Nick Stevens type role.

Stenglein and Shirley will still be around for a tagging role, as will Bode, Ladhams, Schuback and Skippy depending on their ability to survive.

Jericho is an interesting one with his athleticism, pace and areobic capacity - could be a wildcard in this area.

We need to draft at least 2 quality young mid-fielders over the next 2 years to maintain our mid-field standards at a high level.
 

Stiffy_18

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#14
Originally posted by macca23
Johncock will be a cross between Roo and Macca, while Reilly will play a hard running Nick Stevens type role.

Stenglein and Shirley will still be around for a tagging role, as will Bode, Ladhams, Schuback and Skippy depending on their ability to survive.

Jericho is an interesting one with his athleticism, pace and areobic capacity - could be a wildcard in this area.

We need to draft at least 2 quality young mid-fielders over the next 2 years to maintain our mid-field standards at a high level.
Stenglein will be around if he doesn't decide to go back to WA. Ladhams and Schuback are the ones that should be good enough to stick around. Bode at his best is goo enough but he better pull his finger out. The jury is still out on Shirley and Skippy.

If we can get Faulkner by trade and draft a couple of quality midfield prospects in the draft we will be OK.

To me Jericho is more of a utility type. He could play on the wing but I am not sure about on-ball. I reckon he will start off his AFL career as a defender and once he gets some experience end up asa forward.

I think our first father son selection could come in 2005 draft. I know Fanto is keeping an eye on a couple of eligibles who are 14 and 15 now. Apparently there are showing some good signs. Hopefully both are bargain pick ups.:)
 

maccas_no1

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#15
Originally posted by DaveW
Secondary tagger. Or maybe a more aggressive midfield role when he's not opposed to a particularly awesome player.
I would have thought after a great 2003 and a disapointing 2003 from Stinga that he may have been given the number 1 tagging role, I havent lost fait in Stinga cause he is a great tagger but I thought the AFC may have gone this way;)
 

crowmyzone

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#17
Re: Re: Johncock in the midfield is interesting

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
At the end of last year we lost Mark Bickley to retirement so one would suggest that we need another midfielder to cover the loss of Bicks and Stiffy fits the bill.
Shirley would cover Bickleys 1 % ers more so than Stiffy.
Anyway not too many months ago Stiffy you were of the opinion John **** wouldnt go into the midfield.

Whats changed your mind? The media?
 

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#18
Originally posted by maccas_no1
What has his pre-season been like Stiffy?????? Has he had any injuries?????
He has had a good pre-season and din't have any major injuries. The reason I think Shirley will be secondary tagger is because Stenglein has proven himself over the years and is one of the best taggers in the game. Shirley is not as attacking as Stenglein. The days of taggers who aren't to attacking are gone IMHO. Shirley can get the pill BUT not to the extent that Stenglein can. He is also not as damaging as Stenglein.

Nothing against Shirley I just don't see him in our best 22.

We all forget that in 2001 Shirley played 17 of the possible 23 games and everyone was raving on about him because he stitched up Camporeale. The following year he struggled and was delisted. Shirley is a good player to have on the list as he provides some depth but to expect him to step up and fill in Bickley's shoes is a HUGE ask.
 

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#19
Re: Re: Re: Johncock in the midfield is interesting

Originally posted by topjars
Anyway not too many months ago Stiffy you were of the opinion John **** wouldnt go into the midfield.

Whats changed your mind? The media?
When have I said that Johncock wouldn't go into the midfield??????:confused:

I have been saying ever since the end of last season that Stiffy will be in the midfield this year. I have expressed concern that he didn't beat the 17:30 mark in 5km time trials that AFC set for their full time midfielders. As macca23 pointed out at the time it would take a couple of pre-seasons to get to that mark. However, taking off almost a minute of this PB is a bloody good effort.

The way AFC plan to use Johncock in the midfield is very smart. He might not be able to play a full game in there but he can play half a game and be damaging. Rotating him and Roo is a very smart idea and will give us a bit more bite.
 

maccas_no1

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#20
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
He has had a good pre-season and din't have any major injuries. The reason I think Shirley will be secondary tagger is because Stenglein has proven himself over the years and is one of the best taggers in the game. Shirley is not as attacking as Stenglein. The days of taggers who aren't to attacking are gone IMHO. Shirley can get the pill BUT not to the extent that Stenglein can. He is also not as damaging as Stenglein.

Nothing against Shirley I just don't see him in our best 22.

We all forget that in 2001 Shirley played 17 of the possible 23 games and everyone was raving on about him because he stitched up Camporeale. The following year he struggled and was delisted. Shirley is a good player to have on the list as he provides some depth but to expect him to step up and fill in Bickley's shoes is a HUGE ask.
Okay so apart from him being a secondary tagger what other roles on the feild can he offer??Can he go up forward or down back??????
 

macca23

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#21
Originally posted by maccas_no1
Okay so apart from him being a secondary tagger what other roles on the feild can he offer??Can he go up forward or down back??????
He's relatively limited IMO in respect of versatility.

He's a good tagger - no question.

He goes alright as a HB flanker, but lacks a bit of rebound

Could pinch hit on a wing as a negating wingman, which generally is not enough.

He won't kick you goals up forward, so you wouldn't put him there.

In summary, his real go is an on-baller with HB flank seeming to be the only viable alternative, and we're not struggling for them at the moment.
 

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#22
Originally posted by maccas_no1
Okay so apart from him being a secondary tagger what other roles on the feild can he offer??Can he go up forward or down back??????
I have to agree with macca23 on this one.

He is very limited in what he offers. He would have a fair few players in front of him in the midfield department and we also have players who are better half-back flankers than Shirley. The likes of Massie, Begley, Edwards, Hart, Torney, Smart, Gallagher and even Hentschel and Schuback (who can both play well as rebounding half back flankers) would be all in front of Shirley as far as HB spot is concerned.

As I said, Shirley is a good player to have on a list as he provides some depth but it would be a pretty lean list if Shirley was a regular in the 22.
 

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#23
Re: Re: Re: Re: Johncock in the midfield is interesting

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
When have I said that Johncock wouldn't go into the midfield??????:confused:
Too many threads ago to go looking; but I couldnt help thinking eh :confused: at the time.
He was always going to become a midfield player because hes a quick thinker with good evasion.
 

maccas_no1

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#24
Originally posted by macca23
He's relatively limited IMO in respect of versatility.

He's a good tagger - no question.

He goes alright as a HB flanker, but lacks a bit of rebound

Could pinch hit on a wing as a negating wingman, which generally is not enough.

He won't kick you goals up forward, so you wouldn't put him there.

In summary, his real go is an on-baller with HB flank seeming to be the only viable alternative, and we're not struggling for them at the moment.
Yeah it's unforunate that his isnt as versitile as some of the other player's on our list but hopefully he can fullfill a role with the AFC again this season;) Well this time next week will will either be celebrating our first win of the year or we will be cursing what went wrong, I am confident we will be celebrating:D :D :D :D :D :D
 

tinman

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#25
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
The reason I think Shirley will be secondary tagger is because Stenglein has proven himself over the years and is one of the best taggers in the game. Shirley is not as attacking as Stenglein. The days of taggers who aren't to attacking are gone IMHO. Shirley can get the pill BUT not to the extent that Stenglein can. He is also not as damaging as Stenglein.

Nothing against Shirley I just don't see him in our best 22.

We all forget that in 2001 Shirley played 17 of the possible 23 games and everyone was raving on about him because he stitched up Camporeale. The following year he struggled and was delisted. Shirley is a good player to have on the list as he provides some depth but to expect him to step up and fill in Bickley's shoes is a HUGE ask.
The league's top midfielders cover a huge amount of ground and because of their skills coaches are reluctant to rotate them out of the midfield. So to counter them it is best to rotate more than one tagger against them, as then they find it very difficult to shake them.

I think Stinger is better than just a tagger, although last season wasn't a great one for him, but there is still a role for Shirley in the 22. It really depends on matchups.

I think that a rotation that sees McLeod, Roo, Burton and Johncock spending time forward (they are way too good to spend too much time on the bench if it can be avoided and are very dangerous up forward) along with the others in our midfield rotation coming on and off the bench, we are looking good in this area.

We are crying out for a couple of goalkicking "smalls" and this could provide a really good solution.

Tinman
 
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