Traded Jonathon Patton [traded to Hawthorn for Future 4th]

[Slick]

There's a lot of back and forth going on here, but no one from outside of GWS can honestly say that their players aren't taking unders. In fact, Josh Kelly is living proof that at least someone is taking unders to stay, and I'm sure there are plenty more than just him.

I think the differences between Hawthorn (circa 2008-2015 era) and this current GWS team are as follows:

- GWS have multiple top end players (high draft picks) that are attractive to other clubs
- GWS are not in a football 'heartland' and have multiple players from interstate who clubs will target
- GWS have had to pay over to some players in order to bring them to the club (initially) and are probably moving towards a more sustainable pay scale now (similar to what Manchester City and Chelsea have previously done in the English Premier league)
- GWS have worked their way down from a greater list size and salary cap size to the standard sizes they have today

Jon Patton looks like someone who is deemed surplus to requirements based on the development of players like Himmelberg and Finlayson as well as the fact that he is on a large contract, makes him an expendable asset from a GWS point of view. The added benefit is they open up more space to potentially resign the players they feel will contribute to their next premiership tilt.

All of the above is just an outside perspective obviously.

 

[Slick]

By the way, I'd happily take a crack at trying to get Patton fit and firing. Unlike GWS, we don't have a plethora of tall options up forward.

 

[fridgeman]

I am pretty certain he is gone and I feel the club is being extremely cautious with his rehab and return to playing so as to avoid any chance of any re-injuries so they cannot get a trade done and I could see him and the club wanting a 2 year contract for him and I think a figure anywhere between 600-800k for the 2 years with some link to games played built in. I could see him playing maybe 3-4 reserves games and a slight possibility he gets a farewell game in the AFL but not sure if it is worth the risk for him
On his own I think a low 3rd or 4th rd could get it done but the club maybe happy to just upgrade one of its picks as it has a pattern of that and being that the Hawks are heavily rumoured to be interested what other Vic clubs could he suit and have the SC to take the chance?
Cats?
Dogs?
Bombers?
Demons?

 

[citizen-erased]

I am pretty certain he is gone and I feel the club is being extremely cautious with his rehab and return to playing so as to avoid any chance of any re-injuries so they cannot get a trade done and I could see him and the club wanting a 2 year contract for him and I think a figure anywhere between 600-800k for the 2 years with some link to games played built in. I could see him playing maybe 3-4 reserves games and a slight possibility he gets a farewell game in the AFL but not sure if it is worth the risk for him
On his own I think a low 3rd or 4th rd could get it done but the club maybe happy to just upgrade one of its picks as it has a pattern of that and being that the Hawks are heavily rumoured to be interested what other Vic clubs could he suit and have the SC to take the chance?
Cats?
Dogs?
Bombers?
Demons?

We could. given we do have Daniher and Stewart out with long term injuries.
Joey should be back Rd.1. But do we want to add another injury prone forward would be the question.

Add to that a number of re-signings (Tippa, Parish, Francis, Redman, Clarke, Guelfi & Brown....plus Draper may become a bit more expensive if we keep him).

 

[Vindicater]

I would assume it will be a straight salary dump like Scully.

Hawks third round pick straight up.

OR

Hawks 2nd with GWS sending Patton and their 3rd back

 

[moistie]

I believe Patton will come even cheaper than a third. GWS want (need) to clear salary cap space and Hawthorn are willing to take a risk on a player with three knee reconstructions. With Scully coming for a fourth round pick as a salary dump, I feel Patton will be much the same.

The only proviso in my mind is if Cogniglio decides to come to the Hawks, we may up the pick compensation to sweeten the deal. The Hawks salary cap structure won't offer Cogs the $1.2 million (or more) apparently on offer so an increased pick offer would mean GWS won't match the below market rate salary he would be offered coming to the Hawks.

 

[Colonial]

I believe Patton will come even cheaper than a third. GWS want (need) to clear salary cap space and Hawthorn are willing to take a risk on a player with three knee reconstructions. With Scully coming for a fourth round pick as a salary dump, I feel Patton will be much the same.

The only proviso in my mind is if Cogniglio decides to come to the Hawks, we may up the pick compensation to sweeten the deal. The Hawks salary cap structure won't offer Cogs the $1.2 million (or more) apparently on offer so an increased pick offer would mean GWS won't match the below market rate salary he would be offered coming to the Hawks.

We do? Wow.

 

[moistie]

We do? Wow.

Yep. Your list is full to overflowing with highly talented young players coming through on every line. Your business model is to develop and trade out the players who are surplus to requirements or don't want to be there. But the players who do are quality and even being paid at or below market rates, the sheer number on your list means your club will eternally be bumping against the cap.

This process was expedited with the phasing out of COLA. The media have talked around the issue, (such as Scully and a fourth round pick) and where there's smoke there's fire.

 

[Vindicater]

Yep. Your list is full to overflowing with highly talented young players coming through on every line. Your business model is to develop and trade out the players who are surplus to requirements or don't want to be there. But the players who do are quality and even being paid at or below market rates, the sheer number on your list means your club will eternally be bumping against the cap.

This process was expedited with the phasing out of COLA. The media have talked around the issue, (such as Scully and a fourth round pick) and where there's smoke there's fire.

Bloody hell.

Both if these articles are from last year and both say they needed to clear cap space.

They then offloaded Shiel, Lobb and Setterfield to do that.

Did GWS ever even have the COLA?

 

[Scotland]

Yep. Your list is full to overflowing with highly talented young players coming through on every line. Your business model is to develop and trade out the players who are surplus to requirements or don't want to be there. But the players who do are quality and even being paid at or below market rates, the sheer number on your list means your club will eternally be bumping against the cap.

Coniglio isn't surplus to requirements. Only he can tell you if he wants to be there or not, but if he's being paid at or below market rates why would he leave to join a club that can't even offer that? You can't have it both ways. GWS are either paying hand over fist to keep whoever they can and need to keep turning over players or players are happy to stay for less than reported and their salary cap position isn't as bad as people make out.

How much of your own bathwater do you have to swallow to think that GWS wouldn't match a below market FA offer because you'll offer something slightly better than 'cheaper than a third' for Patton? There's not some unicorn scenario where Coniglio is worth say $1.2m, is happy to play with GWS for $1m but GWS will just let him go to $800k because they get a pick 40 instead of pick 45.

Seeing as every man and his dog are experts on GWS' salary cap position, can I please have a run down on the contracts of Dylan Shiel, Rory Lobb, Ryan Griffen and Tom Scully pls? I imagine Brett Deledio and Heath Shaw will retire in the next year or two also.

 

[Scotland]

Bloody hell.

Both if these articles are from last year and both say they needed to clear cap space.

They then offloaded Shiel, Lobb and Setterfield to do that.

Did GWS ever even have the COLA?

GWS had extra salary cap until the end of 2016 and extra list spots until the end of last year. In their first 3 years they had $1m extra but also a list size of 50. The squeeze over the last couple of years was largely due to the concessions being removed earlier than originally planned.

Since the end of 2016 they've gone from 46 players to a standard list size and lost $760k in cap space. Shiel, Scully, Smith, Wilson, Lobb, Palmer, Griffen, Hoskin-Elliott, Johnson, Patfull, Kennedy, Plowman, Steele, Setterfield have all since left. But people still carry on like they are going to give away Cameron, Coniglio, Kelly and Greene in a fire sale. Bizarre.

 

[moistie]

Coniglio isn't surplus to requirements. Only he can tell you if he wants to be there or not, but if he's being paid at or below market rates why would he leave to join a club that can't even offer that? You can't have it both ways. GWS are either paying hand over fist to keep whoever they can and need to keep turning over players or players are happy to stay for less than reported and their salary cap position isn't as bad as people make out.

Settle down punchy, where did I say Cogniglio is surplus to requirements? He's a free agent. GWS wanted to keep him but the people in the know are reporting his choice appears to be to move to Melbourne.

What I hear is the GWS and Hawthorn offers are similar with Carlton (and St Kilda) offers being significantly higher. That's why he would be paid below market rates.

How much of your own bathwater do you have to swallow to think that GWS wouldn't match a below market FA offer because you'll offer something slightly better than 'cheaper than a third' for Patton? There's not some unicorn scenario where Coniglio is worth say $1.2m, is happy to play with GWS for $1m but GWS will just let him go to $800k because they get a pick 40 instead of pick 45.

Where did I say Hawthorn would pay him less than the GWS offer? Your numbers, not mine.

It's an open secret that Patton is coming to Hawthorn, from all reports the deal is done. If Cogniglio chooses Hawthorn, the HFC could play hardball and price the contract such that the Giants cannot or will not match. But the HFC do not operate like that and as such would work with GWS to make the Patton deal work for GWS to lessen the pain of losing Cogniglio.

As for the GWS matching the offer, the President has stated that won't happen. They are well aware if they were to match it would blow any good will the club has in dealing with other clubs (there is a reason no club has matched a free agency offer) and send a bad message to other upcoming free agents (if we can we will hold you against your will).

 

[moistie]

Did GWS ever even have the COLA?

Yep, it was phased out between 2015 and 2017. The President (and Delidio) are agitating for its reinstatement.

 

[Colonial]

Yep. Your list is full to overflowing with highly talented young players coming through on every line. Your business model is to develop and trade out the players who are surplus to requirements or don't want to be there. But the players who do are quality and even being paid at or below market rates, the sheer number on your list means your club will eternally be bumping against the cap.

This process was expedited with the phasing out of COLA. The media have talked around the issue, (such as Scully and a fourth round pick) and where there's smoke there's fire.

Except we dumped an awful lot of talent last year, after these articles, to make sure we were able to keep the players we wanted.

I do love it when someone who has zero connection to the club seems to know every little bit about our model and processes.

Now if you said they may move him on for reasons such as HH and Fin both passing him,
Or he wants a fresh start after so many injuries, I could take that on board.

Using VFL Media, who never leave Vic, as your absolute sources is also amusing.

 

[Colonial]

Bloody hell.

Both if these articles are from last year and both say they needed to clear cap space.

They then offloaded Shiel, Lobb and Setterfield to do that.

Did GWS ever even have the COLA?

Yep was taken away along with the Swans after the AFL what the bed over some trade choices the Swans made.

 

[Scotland]

It's an open secret that Patton is coming to Hawthorn, from all reports the deal is done. If Cogniglio chooses Hawthorn, the HFC could play hardball and price the contract such that the Giants cannot or will not match. But the HFC do not operate like that and as such would work with GWS to make the Patton deal work for GWS to lessen the pain of losing Cogniglio.

As for the GWS matching the offer, the President has stated that won't happen. They are well aware if they were to match it would blow any good will the club has in dealing with other clubs (there is a reason no club has matched a free agency offer) and send a bad message to other upcoming free agents (if we can we will hold you against your will).

More misreporting. The president has stated that GWS won't stand in the way of Coniglio moving clubs should he wish to go down that path. He did not say that he is free to go wherever he wants however he wants.

They match and force you to pay more money, they get band 1 FA compo. They seek a trade, they'll be after your first pick and then some. No point bleating about hardball when the clubs you've already said have offered more have earlier picks in the draft.

There is no 'softening' to be done by a token pick swap for Patton. Unless you plan on signing Coniglio as a FA and trading Patton for pick 8 and and 26.

 

[Chaisa]

Did GWS ever even have the COLA?

Yes, but I don't think it had much of an impact on player salaries. They did have extra cap space too though and that got pulled under the rug from them earlier than they expected.

 

[Blackhawk42]

If we do acquire Patton and with Mitchell Lewis having a breakout period, this forward could pose some headaches for the opposition.

F. Breust Patton Poupolo
HF. Moore/Hanrahan Lewis Wingard

 

[Chaisa]

There is no 'softening' to be done by a token pick swap for Patton. Unless you plan on signing Coniglio as a FA and trading Patton for pick 8 and and 26.

I guess that's his argument, yeah. Instead of offering a token pick for Patton, they offer more to get Cogs as a FA.

 

[moistie]

They match and force you to pay more money, they get band 1 FA compo.

GWS will get band 1 compo regardless. Nothing to be gained from playing hardball in this situation.

They seek a trade, they'll be after your first pick and then some. No point bleating about hardball when the clubs you've already said have offered more have earlier picks in the draft.

The difference is Hawthorn have the capacity to play hardball. Hawthorn have plenty of cap space and are potential retirements of Rough, Birchall, Schoenmakers and Puopolo (and possible trade of Ceglar - potentially to GWS) will clear further salary off the books and can easily make a godfather offer that GWS cannot match. But the HFC don't operate like that and would rather work with GWS. The discussion regarding Cogniglio would have been had at the same time as the Patton trade discussion occurred.

If Cogniglio chooses Hawthorn a reasonable deal will be made between the two clubs and the HFC will not give up it's early picks for a free agent.

 

[WWSD]

If we do acquire Patton and with Mitchell Lewis having a breakout period, this forward could pose some headaches for the opposition.

F. Breust Patton Poupolo
HF. Moore/Hanrahan Lewis Wingard

IN: Gunston
OUT: Puopolo

 

[Burtman]

If there’s no salary cap pressure why does tomlinson, who clearly wants to stay at the giants have to wait till coniglio signs before he can do his contract? If there’s absolutely no salary cap squeeze then surely he would of signed earlier in the year

 

[Blackhawk42]

IN: Gunston
OUT: Puopolo

Don't know how I missed that hahaha.
Yep agreed, big chance Poppy is gone from us next year.

 

[Orange Agent]

If there’s no salary cap pressure why does tomlinson, who clearly wants to stay at the giants have to wait till coniglio signs before he can do his contract? If there’s absolutely no salary cap squeeze then surely he would of signed earlier in the year

Why would you want disgruntled players in your best 22 leading into finals? IMO Tomlinson will be part of this year's cap squeeze as it's a nice way of saying we could probably lose you and the side won't be any worse off and he can get his payday. Similar to some guys called Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

If there’s no salary cap pressure why does tomlinson, who clearly wants to stay at the giants have to wait till coniglio signs before he can do his contract? If there’s absolutely no salary cap squeeze then surely he would of signed earlier in the year

Spot on.