Expansion Joondalup Falcons in the AFL?

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gbatman

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It does, Freo's only notable top draftees of recent times that were Vic Metro were Brayshaw and Cerra (who has left).

Everyone else from Victoria has been Vic Country / they came from another interstate team / or a mature age player.

Yep, too many teams outside vic dilutes the talent pool these teams have to pick from. No one is taking any notice of this but since GWS/GCS have come in it's diluted the talent pool for non-vic teams and given Vic powerhouse clubs a mature age recruitment field.

Adding more non-vic teams won't be good for non-vic clubs.
 

AstonSouffle

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Yep, too many teams outside vic dilutes the talent pool these teams have to pick from. No one is taking any notice of this but since GWS/GCS have come in it's diluted the talent pool for non-vic teams and given Vic powerhouse clubs a mature age recruitment field.

Adding more non-vic teams won't be good for non-vic clubs.
Eh it's swings and roundabouts tbh, Cerra gone has netted us Erasmus and Amiss who will be good players for Freo and are local (in the long run, Freo will love this trade purely because if kept Cerra he'd be kicking beautiful daisy cutter bullets to no one).

If they want more teams - the lower teams should just get to pick more younger players first / get more draft picks / bottom 4 always get priority picks.
 

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gbatman

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Eh it's swings and roundabouts tbh, Cerra gone has netted us Erasmus and Amiss who will be good players for Freo and are local (in the long run, Freo will love this trade purely because if kept Cerra he'd be kicking beautiful daisy cutter bullets to no one).

If they want more teams - the lower teams should just get to pick more younger players first / get more draft picks / bottom 4 always get priority picks.
Yeah but Cerra is a good player now and the other are maybe/maybe not going to be later, huge difference, replacing good mature players coming into their prime constantly is the recipe for mediocracy, You can't be forever rebuilding or you will be going nowhere forever, you need to become quality and mature to win a premiership and hold that status for a number of years because luck comes into the equation as well. What you have mentioned is by far a good thing and is one example of many. Freo need to be good now and a genuine contender now with a premiership list now, not having to keep setting back their time frame to reach their premiership window because mature players keep getting replaced by kids, they will never get there if it keeps happening.

I've said it before and I will say it again. There's x amount of players, more to the point x amount of top end talent in or coming into the league who are willing to play outside Victoria or play in WA, SA, NSW, QLD, TAS etc. The more teams you add to a non-Victorian state the more that that talent is dispersed over those non-vic teams, the more those teams have to share that talent etc.

There is a reason premierships have been dominated by Victorian teams.

In 2011 the GCS entered the AFL (2012 GWS), out of the 12 flags won since only 2 have been won by non Victorian clubs however you could hardly count Sydney in 2012 because their list was already built and they were largely unaffected by the new teams coming in at that time. So pretty much 1 premiership won by non-victorian teams since GCS and GWS have had an influence on the competition.

Looking back at the 12 years prior to GCS coming in (2011), 6 of the 12 flags were won by non-victorian teams. Go back two more years and 8 of the previous 14 flags were won by non-victorian clubs. Those 8 years were dominated by non-victorian teams.

Having GWS and GCS in the AFL has made things incredibly hard for non-victorian clubs and adding more non-victorian clubs will really f*** it for non-victorian clubs, it will make their talent pool very thin.

Not only do GWS and GCS cause the talent pool outside of Victoria to remain diluted but they are feeder clubs for strong victorian sides with cap space. They constantly take in a hoard of early draft picks and lose them a few years later, to mostly victorian clubs which speeds up the list rebuild and topping up of those clubs allowing them to become very strong very quickly.

Bring in Tasmania or another two or three teams and watch all the premierships be dominated by Victorian clubs.
 

gbatman

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But there have been extremely few all Melbourne AFL club grand finals.

And this is part of my point, non-Victorian clubs are capable of building up to a pretty good level but they can't quite take the final step and they struggle to hold onto a strong position.

Any team can build up to being a top 4 team or a runner up, that's easy. But what about winning it or winning multiple grand finals and having sustained success? The final hurdle is getting players to play for unders and that comes from a strong club culture, likelihood of flag success and players genuinely wanting to be there as well as being good enough group to make the team good enough. A lot of teams fall over at the final hurdle and it's usually because they are carrying too many who don't want to be there and because they have over paid some because they want to go,

WCE won a flag just, and they fell to pieces. Port Adelaide, GWS, Adelaide, Fremantle. They all got there and they all fell to pieces. IMO it too them a little longer to get there due to the issue I mentioned then the player retention issue also means that they get there with a full cap and then lose them.

Either way you want to look at it the success of non-victorian clubs before and after GWS/GCS is staggering. You add more teams and IMO it gets worse.
 

RedV3x

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And this is part of my point, non-Victorian clubs are capable of building up to a pretty good level but they can't quite take the final step and they struggle to hold onto a strong position.

Well, the AFL Melbourne clubs have home ground and umpire's advantage during the grand final.
 

gbatman

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Well, the AFL Melbourne clubs have home ground and umpire's advantage during the grand final.

No doubt that is an advantage but it would only be slight. The glaring issue is the undeniable numbers, GCS and GWS have unbalanced the competition. Hence why it was roughly 50/50 or even slightly in the on Vic team's favour prior to them entering the competition and since they have pretty much one non-Vic team has won it since those clubs have come in and affected the lists of the others.

More interstate teams means the go home issue will be greater for all non-Vic clubs which means non-Vic teams will be overpaying players and losing players, two things which won't prevent you from becoming strong to the point of making the grand final but will prevent you from winning one.

Until states outside Victoria start to produce much more elite talent and balance up the ledger this will remain an issue.
 

Bjo187

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Yeah but Cerra is a good player now and the other are maybe/maybe not going to be later, huge difference, replacing good mature players coming into their prime constantly is the recipe for mediocracy, You can't be forever rebuilding or you will be going nowhere forever, you need to become quality and mature to win a premiership and hold that status for a number of years because luck comes into the equation as well. What you have mentioned is by far a good thing and is one example of many. Freo need to be good now and a genuine contender now with a premiership list now, not having to keep setting back their time frame to reach their premiership window because mature players keep getting replaced by kids, they will never get there if it keeps happening.

I've said it before and I will say it again. There's x amount of players, more to the point x amount of top end talent in or coming into the league who are willing to play outside Victoria or play in WA, SA, NSW, QLD, TAS etc. The more teams you add to a non-Victorian state the more that that talent is dispersed over those non-vic teams, the more those teams have to share that talent etc.

There is a reason premierships have been dominated by Victorian teams.

In 2011 the GCS entered the AFL (2012 GWS), out of the 12 flags won since only 2 have been won by non Victorian clubs however you could hardly count Sydney in 2012 because their list was already built and they were largely unaffected by the new teams coming in at that time. So pretty much 1 premiership won by non-victorian teams since GCS and GWS have had an influence on the competition.

Looking back at the 12 years prior to GCS coming in (2011), 6 of the 12 flags were won by non-victorian teams. Go back two more years and 8 of the previous 14 flags were won by non-victorian clubs. Those 8 years were dominated by non-victorian teams.

Having GWS and GCS in the AFL has made things incredibly hard for non-victorian clubs and adding more non-victorian clubs will really f*** it for non-victorian clubs, it will make their talent pool very thin.

Not only do GWS and GCS cause the talent pool outside of Victoria to remain diluted but they are feeder clubs for strong victorian sides with cap space. They constantly take in a hoard of early draft picks and lose them a few years later, to mostly victorian clubs which speeds up the list rebuild and topping up of those clubs allowing them to become very strong very quickly.

Bring in Tasmania or another two or three teams and watch all the premierships be dominated by Victorian clubs.

This is a plausible theory I had not thought of before 👍
 

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AJMLaird

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If Joondalup joins the AFL what would their club song be? A rehash of one of the merger club’s songs or a completely original piece?
 

Football Tragic

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The argument that new teams will dilute the talent pool has been brought up every time a new team has joined the competition since almost the inception of the VFL competition. There are players out there that, given an opportunity, will step up to the standard and become quality players. If it is financially sustainable, then I'm all for more clubs and more overall revenue and interest in the game.
 

Purple Suit

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No doubt that is an advantage but it would only be slight. The glaring issue is the undeniable numbers, GCS and GWS have unbalanced the competition. Hence why it was roughly 50/50 or even slightly in the on Vic team's favour prior to them entering the competition and since they have pretty much one non-Vic team has won it since those clubs have come in and affected the lists of the others.

More interstate teams means the go home issue will be greater for all non-Vic clubs which means non-Vic teams will be overpaying players and losing players, two things which won't prevent you from becoming strong to the point of making the grand final but will prevent you from winning one.

Until states outside Victoria start to produce much more elite talent and balance up the ledger this will remain an issue.
Nah,
There are 4 non footy state teams and 14 footy state teams. WA & SA clubs would be powerhouses if they had all of the WA / SA talent only so the dilution only really happens across the expansion teams rather than by vic v interstate sides.

The population has also grown by 18% since the expansion teams came in and the expansion added 12.5% more teams. The talent should have gone past the dilution by now. Rule changes, home ground advantage and just pure coincidence would be more of a factor in why Vic teams have got a lot of flags recently and it is no surprise the bulk of those are to big vic clubs who get to play infront of massive crowds at the G during the year.
 

RedV3x

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The argument that new teams will dilute the talent pool has been brought up every time a new team has joined the competition since almost the inception of the VFL competition.

And people logically think that this is negative thing whilst in effect it is positive thing.
The best, most attractive football was played in W.A. and S.A. pre-AFL.
This was because there were league footballers and natural champions with natural champions
shining out to display all there talents.
Today, most footballers are 'learned' champions and it's extremely hard for any one player to stand out.
Now, there is some truth that most AFL games are a tight competitive affair that adds tension to the game
but overall i prefer the more "shootout" type affairs.

Easily the most important issue with additional teams in expansion is NOT the dilution of talent
but rather the DISTRIBUTION of talent. It applies to every level of every sport.
 

JackOutback

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If Joondalup joins the AFL what would their club song be? A rehash of one of the merger club’s songs or a completely original piece?
Well, Eskimo Joe has worked with Freo and Birds of Tokyo butchered the Eagles’ song, so…. Something from Tame Impala?
 

gbatman

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Nah,
There are 4 non footy state teams and 14 footy state teams. WA & SA clubs would be powerhouses if they had all of the WA / SA talent only so the dilution only really happens across the expansion teams rather than by vic v interstate sides.

The population has also grown by 18% since the expansion teams came in and the expansion added 12.5% more teams. The talent should have gone past the dilution by now. Rule changes, home ground advantage and just pure coincidence would be more of a factor in why Vic teams have got a lot of flags recently and it is no surprise the bulk of those are to big vic clubs who get to play infront of massive crowds at the G during the year.
Has footy participation increased though? No doubt things aren't as bad for footy state teams but they aren't better, I would say they are worse off still. Maybe it's just where I live but there appear to be a lot less kids playing footy and sport in general. Quite a lot.
 

Purple Suit

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Has footy participation increased though? No doubt things aren't as bad for footy state teams but they aren't better, I would say they are worse off still. Maybe it's just where I live but there appear to be a lot less kids playing footy and sport in general. Quite a lot.
I recon it's grown at younger levels but decreasing with teenagers. My local kids footy team has the same number of boys teams but has added a few girls teams. It's an established area though so the same amount of houses, newer suburbs with growth areas are probably expanding with the housing.

Teenagers dropping off more due to technology options and general trends might not effect the elite talent as the gun kids would get more enjoyment out of the game and continue to play it.
 

AJMLaird

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Nah,
There are 4 non footy state teams and 14 footy state teams. WA & SA clubs would be powerhouses if they had all of the WA / SA talent only so the dilution only really happens across the expansion teams rather than by vic v interstate sides.

The population has also grown by 18% since the expansion teams came in and the expansion added 12.5% more teams. The talent should have gone past the dilution by now. Rule changes, home ground advantage and just pure coincidence would be more of a factor in why Vic teams have got a lot of flags recently and it is no surprise the bulk of those are to big vic clubs who get to play infront of massive crowds at the G during the year.

It's why the mighty panthers would be a powerhouse team. We may be s**t at winning premierships but we've produced some solid AFL talent. We are a team of champions, but unfortunately not a champion team. Hope this changes when we join the top flight.
 

Cubs2Lions

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So start a new thread instead of clogging up this one.
angry cat GIF
 

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