Society/Culture Jordan B Peterson

[its free real estate]

It's just another straw man argument like your 'hierarchies were created by western civilisation' straw man.

http://blascapital.blogspot.com/2015/10/capitalism-patriarchy-and.html

Just type in some combination of capitalism, patriarchy and heteronormativity to your search box and you’ll find heaps of literature.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Really? After his initial pronouns blow up he sat across some nasally uptalking academic bloke in an interview who said “biological sex is a social construct”. Now, maybe people like him are condemned (sorry, “DESTROYED”) by YouTube video editors, but you’ll read little in mainstream discourse about how ridiculous that point of view is.

Remember the Safe Schools thing? There was heaps of evidence that the people behind it had extremely questionable views on things like the age of consent, yet anyone who brought it up was apparently a reactionary bigot who wanted gay kids to kill themselves.

From my understanding, a large number of Canadian lawyers essentially showed Peterson had NFI what he was talking about and his doomsday predictions were basically concern trolling.

In 10 years time he'll be a walking joke. I will bet our friendship on this.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

http://blascapital.blogspot.com/2015/10/capitalism-patriarchy-and.html

Just type in some combination of capitalism, patriarchy and heteronormativity to your search box and you’ll find heaps of literature.

We both know you know no one serious believes it. We could find examples of any number of Peterson facts based on his followers.

 

[ShanDog]

What is the FAR left?

Lol, no one in any era since the 1800s would accuse someone like Peterson as being a hippy.

And lol. Seriously lol. Find someone like me or anyone on this board discussing 'micro aggressions'. It's just another straw man argument like your 'hierarchies were created by western civilisation' straw man.

Lol right lol?! But seriously though, heaps of lol.

I didn't accuse you of talking about anything. You accused me of being a conservative in sheep's clothing. Just because you don't see these things doesn't mean they don't exist either. That's a logical fallacy, not my incorrectly labelled straw man.

The far left are the particular brand of identity politicking idiots who use oppression levels as social currency, re-brand the term violence to include words and shame everyone who doesn't agree with them as though their political and social views hold a monopoly on morals and ethics. They are the "believe all women" rather than "innocent until proven guilty" types who are deliberately or ignorantly eroding the individuality that our society is based on. For them, you are your group identity first and foremost, not you - a unique blend of an almost infinite number of environmental, historical and genetic factors. And at the extreme ends (which have a large number of supporters), they want to fundamentally change society with economic systems like socialism or communism in order to flatten society out, steam-rolling the individual for the perceived but incorrect greater good.

I have been discussing Peterson and politics in good faith. If you want to continue down the point scoring path you can do it on your lonesome. That bullshit is the same tribal and partisan crap that drives everything wrong with political and social discourse today.

 

[its free real estate]

From my understanding, a large number of Canadian lawyers essentially showed Peterson had NFI what he was talking about and his doomsday predictions were basically concern trolling.

His prediction about the particulars of that law maybe not be correct as it stands, but his predictions in general are. There are people being arrested and put in jail in the UK now.

In 10 years time he'll be a walking joke. I will bet our friendship on this.

I reckon he would have flamed out already if he was going to.

 

[its free real estate]

We both know you know no one serious believes it. We could find examples of any number of Peterson facts based on his followers.

What do you mean by no one serious? The grievance studies people from Latrobe believed that s**t and they had their policies deployed into schools.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

His prediction about the particulars of that law maybe not be correct as it stands, but his predictions in general aren’t. There are people being arrested and put in jail in the UK no

So his predictions on Canadian law had ramifications in the UK?

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

What do you mean by no one serious? The grievance studies people from Latrobe believed that s**t and they had their policies deployed into schools.

As a one time La Trobe student before going to unimelb, I maintain no one serious comes from la trobe.

 

[its free real estate]

So his predictions on Canadian law had ramifications in the UK?

His predictions were about the intent of such laws, and where they inevitably lead to. The Canadian laws as they stand might not be what he says, but you’re kidding yourself if you think the people behind them don’t want to expand them, and that “right-thinking” progressives won’t acquiesce.

 

[its free real estate]

As a one time La Trobe student before going to unimelb, I maintain no one serious comes from la trobe.

They may be profoundly unserious people, but so long as policy makers take them seriously, so should we.

 

[its free real estate]

The more I look into this the less I think ShanDog’s initial claim was ridiculous:

The gender binary was and is used as a tool of colonial violence, as it erases and denies the existence of non-white, non-binary identities.​

In fact, imposing a Western European gender binary was (and is) a major part of forced assimilation (forcing native people to adopt the culture of the people colonizing their land). Male dominance (white male dominance in particular) was and is a major driving force in imperialism and colonialism.​

​

https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/what-is-heteronormativity/

And there is a lot of hilarity in this glossary

https://www.antiviolenceproject.org/info/glossary/

Heteropatriarchy
A colonial construct and concept that defines both masculinity and femininity in narrow and limiting ways in order to maintain a binary distinction between male and female, dominant and subordinate. It operates from the assertion that the earth is inherently female and is therefore seen as inherently subservient/available to be consumed and utilized. Heteropatriarchy serves to naturalize all other social hierarchies, such as white supremacy and settler colonialism. When colonists first came to this land they saw the necessity of instilling patriarchy in Native communities because they realized that indigenous peoples would not accept colonial domination if their own indigenous societies were not structured on the basis of social hierarchy.​

It’s a rich tapestry.

 

[kickazz]

Lol right lol?! But seriously though, heaps of lol.

I didn't accuse you of talking about anything. You accused me of being a conservative in sheep's clothing. Just because you don't see these things doesn't mean they don't exist either. That's a logical fallacy, not my incorrectly labelled straw man.

The far left are the particular brand of identity politicking idiots who use oppression levels as social currency, re-brand the term violence to include words and shame everyone who doesn't agree with them as though their political and social views hold a monopoly on morals and ethics. They are the "believe all women" rather than "innocent until proven guilty" types who are deliberately or ignorantly eroding the individuality that our society is based on. For them, you are your group identity first and foremost, not you - a unique blend of an almost infinite number of environmental, historical and genetic factors. And at the extreme ends (which have a large number of supporters), they want to fundamentally change society with economic systems like socialism or communism in order to flatten society out, steam-rolling the individual for the perceived but incorrect greater good.

I have been discussing Peterson and politics in good faith. If you want to continue down the point scoring path you can do it on your lonesome. That bullshit is the same tribal and partisan crap that drives everything wrong with political and social discourse today.

*en A.

 

[ShanDog]

The more I look into this the less I think ShanDog’s initial claim was ridiculous:

The gender binary was and is used as a tool of colonial violence, as it erases and denies the existence of non-white, non-binary identities.​

In fact, imposing a Western European gender binary was (and is) a major part of forced assimilation (forcing native people to adopt the culture of the people colonizing their land). Male dominance (white male dominance in particular) was and is a major driving force in imperialism and colonialism.​

​

https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/what-is-heteronormativity/

And there is a lot of hilarity in this glossary

https://www.antiviolenceproject.org/info/glossary/

Heteropatriarchy​

A colonial construct and concept that defines both masculinity and femininity in narrow and limiting ways in order to maintain a binary distinction between male and female, dominant and subordinate. It operates from the assertion that the earth is inherently female and is therefore seen as inherently subservient/available to be consumed and utilized. Heteropatriarchy serves to naturalize all other social hierarchies, such as white supremacy and settler colonialism. When colonists first came to this land they saw the necessity of instilling patriarchy in Native communities because they realized that indigenous peoples would not accept colonial domination if their own indigenous societies were not structured on the basis of social hierarchy.​

It’s a rich tapestry.

I'm offended that you even considered something I have said to potentially be ridiculous. I've been wrong about something twice in my whole life, and the second time was after I thought I said something that was wrong but turned out to be right, which made me wrong to doubt it

 

[its free real estate]

I'm offended that you even considered something I have said to potentially be ridiculous. I've been wrong about something twice in my whole life, and the second time was after I thought I said something that was wrong but turned out to be right, which made me wrong to doubt it

I was being charitable to herculez09

 

[Frank Bunn]

He's taken on Lomberg's argument that we should prioritise what global problems we should focus on based on what will provide the most benefit in a cost effective manner. Climate change does not stack up highly in that ranking system.

He goes further than Lomberg in that he questions some people's motivations. They have an a priori commitment to what constitutes the most salient catastrophe. He thinks that what motivates some people's psychological commitment to climate change is an anti-Western or anti-Capitalist ethos. For those people, the real goal of climate change policy is to find an ethical justification for a political position that requires the re-tuning of economic systems to restrict growth and restructure the economic system.

Exhibit A. The Australian Greens.

Now a long-term parliamentary staffer, Jack Gough, is also resigning, telling the Herald that he believes those scientists who say the world has only a dozen or so years to act on climate change. In his view, a hard-left faction in the NSW Greens is determined instead to focus on a quixotic campaign to dismantle capitalism in the cause of revolutionary socialism.​

​

Wherever the new members were coming from, Gough says their presence was immediately felt at branch meetings. He says the new members were aggressive and argumentative and their language appeared to have been refined in far-left campus organisations. Their focus, says Gough, was the overthrow of capitalism and they proved to be expert at using the party’s regulations and rules block any action that they opposed upon ideological grounds.​

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...eens-caught-in-civil-war-20190215-p50xze.html

 

[its free real estate]

Exhibit A. The Australian Greens.

Now a long-term parliamentary staffer, Jack Gough, is also resigning, telling the Herald that he believes those scientists who say the world has only a dozen or so years to act on climate change. In his view, a hard-left faction in the NSW Greens is determined instead to focus on a quixotic campaign to dismantle capitalism in the cause of revolutionary socialism.​

​

Wherever the new members were coming from, Gough says their presence was immediately felt at branch meetings. He says the new members were aggressive and argumentative and their language appeared to have been refined in far-left campus organisations. Their focus, says Gough, was the overthrow of capitalism and they proved to be expert at using the party’s regulations and rules block any action that they opposed upon ideological grounds.​

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...eens-caught-in-civil-war-20190215-p50xze.html

Paul Kingsnorth wrote something similar a few years ago:

The problem for Klein is that, in her case at least, the Heartlanders are right. She does want to transform the American way of life in the interests of global wealth distribution, and she is very open about using climate change as a reason to do that. Her book proves the Tea Party right, and that isn’t going to do climate change scientists any favours, as Marshall points out:​

​

The missing truth, deliberately avoided in these enemy narratives, is that in high-carbon societies, everyone contributes to the emissions that cause the problem and everyone has a strong reason to ignore the problem or to write their own alibi … If our founding narratives are based around enemies, there is no reason to suppose that, as climate impacts build in intensity, new and far more vicious enemy narratives will not readily replace them, drawing on religious, generational, political, class and nationalistic divides … History has shown us too many times that enemy narratives soften us up for the violence, scapegoating or genocide that follows.​

​

Climate change isn’t something that a small group of baddies has foisted on us, and the minute it becomes an issue identified with one political persuasion, action to prevent it becomes less likely. In the end, we are all implicated, which is one reason we refuse to look at it directly. This is a less palatable message than one which sees a brutal 1 per cent screwing the planet and a noble 99 per cent opposing them, but it is closer to reality.​

​

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n20/paul-kingsnorth/the-four-degrees

 

[smokingjacket]

No, but none of those people are taken seriously by anyone outside their group. Whereas “other ways of knowing”, “decolonising science” and other forms of obscurantism are supported by the same people who most vehemently rage against Peterson.

Where do you think Jungian psychoanalysis of mythology falls on the "academic crackpottery" to "harmless pseudoscience not to be taken seriously" scale?

 

[its free real estate]

... wait a sec, there was a Greens staffer called “Jack Gough”?

Where do you think Jungian psychoanalysis of mythology falls on the "academic crackpottery" to "harmless pseudoscience not to be taken seriously" scale?

Jungian analysis isn’t being taught in schools nor does it form the basis of mandatory diversity courses in corporate workplace settings.

 

[smokingjacket]

... wait a sec, there was a Greens staffer called “Jack Gough”?


Jungian analysis isn’t being taught in schools nor does it form the basis of mandatory diversity courses in corporate workplace settings.

Fair point, but neither are "decolonisation narratives." As we've seen in previous culturally popular academic work, there's usually a lag time with their popularity. In ten years who knows how widespread or well taught Peterson's psychological work will be? The basis of much of his popular psychological work is crackpot nonsense and should be called so.

 

[its free real estate]

Fair point, but neither are "decolonisation narratives."

What were fringe gender narratives of only 10 years ago are now mainstream. There are already proposals to teach indigenous languages in primary schools. Nice, but how about we use our limited public resources to teach maths and English a bit better than what we're already doing.

As we've seen in previous culturally popular academic work, there's usually a lag time with their popularity. In ten years who knows how widespread or well taught Peterson's psychological work will be? The basis of much of his popular psychological work is crackpot nonsense and should be called so.

Peterson won't be remembered for his Jungian stuff. Academics should be allowed to be crackpots in their spare time. Newton was an alchemist who spent most of his time studying the occult. Once ridiculous theories start being accepted as canon is when we should tell them to shut up.

 

[Rob]

Huge burn here from Jonathon Green:


I don't know how Peterson will recover from it.

And in all honesty, I rated Green higher than this. I expect it from the extreme left, but when the moderate left is going down this path then we have a problem.

 

[its free real estate]

I mean the French '68 philosophers were all pederasts, but it's considered sophisticated to quote something by the wife-murdering Althusser or kinky, S&M loving, "why can't we lower the age of consent" Foucault.

Yet Peterson says dreams about dragons symbolises feminine chaos and people lose their s**t.

 

[smokingjacket]

Huge burn here from Jonathon Green:


I don't know how Peterson will recover from it.

And in all honesty, I rated Green higher than this. I expect it from the extreme left, but when the moderate left is going down this path then we have a problem.

It's the rad-libs who are the worst identity politickers because that's how they've built their understanding of the world without looking capitalism or class.

 

[smokingjacket]

What were fringe gender narratives of only 10 years ago are now mainstream. There are already proposals to teach indigenous languages in primary schools. Nice, but how about we use our limited public resources to teach maths and English a bit better than what we're already doing.

Australian governments have bounced between positions on indigenous language teaching in schools every decade well before decolonisation of education was a thing. My personal opinion is that it's a bad idea. Another case of burdening the school system with fixing the cultural problems of our society.

Peterson won't be remembered for his Jungian stuff. Academics should be allowed to be crackpots in their spare time. Newton was an alchemist who spent most of his time studying the occult. Once ridiculous theories start being accepted as canon is when we should tell them to shut up.

His "Maps of Meaning" lecture has 1.6 million views, whether you agree or not, he's as famous as a Jungian-psychologist-philosopher as he is the Reddit generations Dad. Even in this thread that's obvious.

 

[its free real estate]

His "Maps of Meaning" lecture has 1.6 million views, whether you agree or not, he's as famous as a Jungian-psychologist-philosopher as he is the Reddit generations Dad. Even in this thread that's obvious.

Yeah but Gangnam Style has 3 billion.