Society/Culture Jordan B Peterson

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Norm Smith Medallist
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Nope.
From what I understand it's a horrible piece of s**t taking advantage of existing systems.

And somehow now it defines the entire global trans community.
"Existing" systems that have only been in place for less than five years. Same as the Vancouver rape shelter who was refused state funding because they didn't let men (sorry, women who have penises) in.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
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"Existing" systems that have only been in place for less than five years. Same as the Vancouver rape shelter who was refused state funding because they didn't let men (sorry, women who have penises) in.
Yeah, it's a complicated transition isn't it.

Best thing we can do is make sure the systems work effectively, and keep everyone safe.

Or, should we scrap the system, class transsexuals as a mental disorder and lock them up?



Were there ever any issues as we became more accepting of homosexuals?
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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Link please?
More than ACT and Tasmania actually:

Western Australia, the Australian Capital Territory, South Australia, the Northern Territory and Tasmania, all of which have removed the prerequisite for gender affirmation surgery to change the sex indicator on birth certificates progressively since 2011​

Further lols:

Sex identification is forced upon us as we are all coercively assigned gender at birth without consent. Perhaps instead of parents throwing gender-reveal parties, starting fires in national parks or getting alligators to pop pink or blue powdered balloons with their teeth, we should give people space to reveal their own gender.​

Subjectively denying reality. Science denialists of the left

 

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CM86

Anindilyakwa
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More than ACT and Tasmania actually:

Western Australia, the Australian Capital Territory, South Australia, the Northern Territory and Tasmania, all of which have removed the prerequisite for gender affirmation surgery to change the sex indicator on birth certificates progressively since 2011​

Further lols:

Sex identification is forced upon us as we are all coercively assigned gender at birth without consent. Perhaps instead of parents throwing gender-reveal parties, starting fires in national parks or getting alligators to pop pink or blue powdered balloons with their teeth, we should give people space to reveal their own gender.​

Subjectively denying reality. Science denialists of the left

Thanks. I'll have a read.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
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More than ACT and Tasmania actually:

Western Australia, the Australian Capital Territory, South Australia, the Northern Territory and Tasmania, all of which have removed the prerequisite for gender affirmation surgery to change the sex indicator on birth certificates progressively since 2011​

Further lols:

Sex identification is forced upon us as we are all coercively assigned gender at birth without consent. Perhaps instead of parents throwing gender-reveal parties, starting fires in national parks or getting alligators to pop pink or blue powdered balloons with their teeth, we should give people space to reveal their own gender.​

Subjectively denying reality. Science denialists of the left

Interesting and concerning.
But it does clear it up in the article.

introduced a bill to parliament on Tuesday that would give transgender, intersex and non-binary people the right to self-nominate the sex and gender identification on their birth certificate, I greeted this news with equal parts excitement and caution.​
I read the following passage and strongly disagreed with it.

As much as the rights of trans and gender diverse people didn’t start with marriage equality in 2018, they will not end with self-identification on birth certificates. There is more to do. Changing the legislation presents a critical step in ensuring the life chances of trans and gender diverse people are realised to their full potential. It also removes gender affirming surgery as inextricably linked politically and lawfully to birth certificates. This often forces people into considerations about their bodies they might otherwise not have to make. Not all transgender, intersex and non-binary people require surgery. Let’s relieve trans people of that burden and that cost.​
But the following paragraph makes a good point.

In real terms, getting top and/or bottom surgery comes at a huge price, and gender affirmation surgeries are inaccessible for many trans and gender diverse people. In Australia, costs for surgeries that qualify as a prerequisite for birth certificate changes vary from $15,000 tomore than $100,000. For many trans and gender diverse people, these procedures are lifesaving medical treatments – most or all of which is not covered by Medicare rebates. They are financed out of the pockets of individuals, families and community fundraising. For others, it’s the cost of a first car, rent for a year, a deposit on a house or a superannuation investment. That kind of money is a start in life or a retirement fund.​

This raised more questions, and I'm on the fence.

While the local football league or community radio station probably don’t need to know the detail of one’s trans status, being outed at Centrelink or to an employer through a superannuation provider shouldn’t happen to anyone. It is a breach of our rights to privacy. Personal histories of gender change should not be recorded as they risk disclosing the status of individuals who would otherwise retain that knowledge.​

It's not very clear as to what the requirements are for self id.
If you are able to self id and pop in every other week to update your birth certificate, this would crazy and easily exploitable.

If everything else has been done (medical advice, hormone treatment et al), and all that's left is the prohibitive surgery, then I support the self ID.

Should we support these surgeries being covered by Medicare? If the concern is that the surgery hasn't taken place (rather than just being against trans sexuals), would this be an option?
Are weight loss surgeries covered at all?
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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It's not very clear as to what the requirements are for self id.
If you are able to self id and pop in every other week to update your birth certificate, this would crazy and easily exploitable.

If everything else has been done (medical advice, hormone treatment et al), and all that's left is the prohibitive surgery, then I support the self ID.
That's what they want.
Damien Carrick: Just to clarify, you need to have gender reassignment surgery before you can change any of your official documents at the state level, so the birth certificate, what have you?​
Ed Santow: That's correct, but in Australia that starting to change. So in South Australia and Western Australia they've gone some of the way to change that. They no longer require surgery but they do require someone has at least had hormonal treatment. And then the ACT and the Federal government have gone further still and they've now said that all you require is at least to have had some counselling from a medical professional, and that they then certify.​
We still think that you could go even further, which is to simply allow people to affirm. There is no evidence that there's some great benefit to be gained from changing the legal record of your sex. And so it's far better and it seems to be the best practice worldwide simply to allow people to affirm what is their sex or gender.​
Damien Carrick: Their lived reality as opposed to complying with some kind of medical definition.​
Ed Santow: Precisely, and in Australian law and in practice, the cardinal document for your identification is your birth certificate, so in a sense that is the most important thing to get right. And at the moment we have a situation where these two additional requirements are incredibly invasive, and now the UN Human Rights Committee is telling us that it is also contrary to human rights to have at least one of these requirements.​
Damien Carrick: Ed Santow, the Human Rights Commissioner with responsibility for LGBT Australians.​

Not a fringe view, the state employed Human Rights Commissioner.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
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That's what they want.
Damien Carrick: Just to clarify, you need to have gender reassignment surgery before you can change any of your official documents at the state level, so the birth certificate, what have you?​
Ed Santow: That's correct, but in Australia that starting to change. So in South Australia and Western Australia they've gone some of the way to change that. They no longer require surgery but they do require someone has at least had hormonal treatment. And then the ACT and the Federal government have gone further still and they've now said that all you require is at least to have had some counselling from a medical professional, and that they then certify.​
We still think that you could go even further, which is to simply allow people to affirm. There is no evidence that there's some great benefit to be gained from changing the legal record of your sex. And so it's far better and it seems to be the best practice worldwide simply to allow people to affirm what is their sex or gender.​
Damien Carrick: Their lived reality as opposed to complying with some kind of medical definition.​
Ed Santow: Precisely, and in Australian law and in practice, the cardinal document for your identification is your birth certificate, so in a sense that is the most important thing to get right. And at the moment we have a situation where these two additional requirements are incredibly invasive, and now the UN Human Rights Committee is telling us that it is also contrary to human rights to have at least one of these requirements.​
Damien Carrick: Ed Santow, the Human Rights Commissioner with responsibility for LGBT Australians.​

Not a fringe view, the state employed Human Rights Commissioner.
I have trouble with this, because I view the issue as gender vs sex.
With gender being the social construct and sex being scientific fact.


So changing sex rather than saying it's changing gender is a difficult concept for me to accept.

If you are born as a woman, but identify as a man... should your workplace know? What level of privacy should they be entitled to?
There is still a huge stigma attached to trans sexuals. Maybe as it decreases and becomes more acceptable in society, we can start being more open about sex and gender.

I wouldn't want to be dating a woman, to find out later that she was born a man. But, is that just a prejudice I have due to the societal norms I've grown up around?

Either way... there are reasons that I should be privy to that information in that situation.

On the other hand, how does it influence a person doing their job? Why should their employer know?
 

juzz88

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I have trouble with this, because I view the issue as gender vs sex.
With gender being the social construct and sex being scientific fact.



So changing sex rather than saying it's changing gender is a difficult concept for me to accept.
They're the same thing, it's semantics.

Apparently it was decided that the newspeak definition of gender would be a social construct, different to that of sex. Historically, that has never been the case. Trans people have gender dysphoria. They've changed the definition of gender to shelter themselves from the fact that they have a mental illness.

This doesn't mean they should be locked up, or ridiculed. Nor does it mean they need to be "cured". I have nothing but compassion for trans people. I will be polite, civil, even affectionate towards them. But I draw the line when they want to start invading areas that are segregated along gender (or sex, if you wish) lines, particularly when it is done for safety reasons (e.g. in rape shelters, or for contact sports, as you have previously discussed).

Which is why I think it's important we stop defining gender as a social construct and clearly identify that transgenderism is gender dysphoria. You can't be born a man and identify as a woman, you're a man in a dress, and that's fine. You don't need to be ashamed about being a man who wears a dress, had plastic surgery and changed their name to Wendy, but we aren't doing these people any favours by telling them they are anything other than what they are.


There's a fine line between being compassionate and being negligent.
 

Steinfreo

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They're the same thing, it's semantics.

Apparently it was decided that the newspeak definition of gender would be a social construct, different to that of sex. Historically, that has never been the case. Trans people have gender dysphoria. They've changed the definition of gender to shelter themselves from the fact that they have a mental illness.

This doesn't mean they should be locked up, or ridiculed. Nor does it mean they need to be "cured". I have nothing but compassion for trans people. I will be polite, civil, even affectionate towards them. But I draw the line when they want to start invading areas that are segregated along gender (or sex, if you wish) lines, particularly when it is done for safety reasons (e.g. in rape shelters, or for contact sports, as you have previously discussed).

Which is why I think it's important we stop defining gender as a social construct and clearly identify that transgenderism is gender dysphoria. You can't be born a man and identify as a woman, you're a man in a dress, and that's fine. You don't need to be ashamed about being a man who wears a dress, had plastic surgery and changed their name to Wendy, but we aren't doing these people any favours by telling them they are anything other than what they are.


There's a fine line between being compassionate and being negligent.
Basically no trans person denies the biological truths of gender, what they argue is the word man and women and whether they are cultural constructs. It is all about hte language of the and the way we use the term "man" and "women" internally and there is alternatives there, thats why we can have a debate about it in the first place, it isnt a universal truth. Theres a good analogy I read to understand the trans point of view.

There is an analogy between transwomen/transmen and adoptive parents. As with "man" and "women" theres an internally consistent way of using the words "parents", "mother" and "father" to only refer to a childs biological progenitors. there is, however, a social use of all of these terms that often coincides with the biological use but which comes apart from it in some cases. Someone who has the legal role of a father is a "father" in a well understood sense even if he isnt a father in the sense at issue when a doctor says, "The test come back and you're the father." Most people who are fathers in the first sense are also fathers in the second sense, but plenty of men are only one or the other. Most people who are "women" in the sense of identifying as women and presenting themselves to others as women are also biologically female human beings, but some people are only one or the other.

The argument isnt about anything other than dignity and equality, anything else just muddies the water.
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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Further lols:

Sex identification is forced upon us as we are all coercively assigned gender at birth without consent. Perhaps instead of parents throwing gender-reveal parties, starting fires in national parks or getting alligators to pop pink or blue powdered balloons with their teeth, we should give people space to reveal their own gender.​

Subjectively denying reality. Science denialists of the left

If sex identification is 'forced upon us as we are all coercively assigned gender at birth without consent' then so is identification as a human. Just that we correctly deem people who identify as a puppy, teddy bear or Apache attack helicopter as delusional.
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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If sex identification is 'forced upon us as we are all coercively assigned gender at birth without consent' then so is identification as a human. Just that we correctly deem people who identify as a puppy, teddy bear or Apache attack helicopter as delusional.
If independent observations made by scientific experts can’t be trusted because they too readily conform to a predominant worldview then what else can be said about so-called scientific assertions?
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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If independent observations made by scientific experts can’t be trusted because they too readily conform to a predominant worldview then what else can be said about so-called scientific assertions?
It makes me laugh when I see postmodernists stand up and make statements alleging science is merely a white male centric tool to oppress women, people of colour and poor people - while speaking in an air-conditioned room after flying across the globe, checking their iPhone and broadcasting on the internet.
 

Soft Downhill Skier

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There's a lovely video posted today in the Grievance Studies thread.
I had a quick look, and the opening part was from a person claiming Indigenous science had been ignored.

Does anyone go on to make a claim that science is just a tool to oppress non-whites? Because these 2 are very different things.
 
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