Society/Culture Jordan B Peterson

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Sweet Jesus

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yeah, things change. If you're using the post 1964 liberal position as the default, it's easy to see why you see positives in Peterson.
I'm not sure what that means, or what alternative definition you propose.

He has provided a defense for social and racial hierarchies.
Are all social hierarchies bad, by definition?

I'd suggest that his argument is more that some hierarchies are inevitable. Some folks will have more power than others. Some folks will have more money. Some folks will be more attractive to members of the opposite sex. And that state of affairs is preferable to the mechanisms that would be required to dismantle them and ensure equality of outcome.
 

Sweet Jesus

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Trump is a fascist dude. You are the one being erronous to assume he isnt. the majority of what he says and does points to a desire for facism.
What is your definition of "fascist"?

Are you using words "exchangeably" again? Like how discriminating against people for their sexual preference is "racist"?

Trump may have authoritarian or autocratic tendencies. He may be deeply corrupt and deeply anti-democratic. That's not the same as being a fascist.

Let me know if you think he's actually fascist, according to a working definition? Or are you just swapping words in and out, pretending they have "exchangeable" meanings?

His criticisms of identity politics are just plain obvious. I agree with them in the same way i agree with a dog that its a good thing to breathe. i dont appreciate the dog for its decision.

peterson is an utter moron Peddling irrational snake oil.
So he's a moron peddling irrational snake oil but you agree with some of his arguments.
 

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jatz14

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conflating media gobbet with professional advice , he wears multiple hats , there are thousands of hours of him on YouTube where he is advancing multiple different roles , i get this persona from him also in some of his roles (ie. appointments with Joe Rogan he may emphasise this)
He is, but often doesn't talk like it. I do believe he is fairly right wing, but with an underlying homespun philosophical base.

Which is why he doesn't fit neatly.

A for instance is his opposition to Canada's laws regarding pronoun choices, essentially making it a law that you use the pronoun the other person requires.

Peterson is vigorously against this law on the basis it compels speech. But at the same time, he says you should use the pronouns people choose as a matter of common decency.

So, the far left ranted against him as a transphobe for opposing the law, and the far right ranted against him as a vapid lefty for stating that while the law shouldn't compel use of trans pronouns, you should use them anyway, as it's the right thing to do.

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jatz14

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In what sense?

I'd say he's hard to pigeonhole politically. He has particular views on particular issues but I'm not sure I could say he's broadly LW or broadly RW.

I suspect it suits some people who lean left that object to some of his views to cast him as RW but I'm not sure that's accurate.
He describes himself as of the right, but is critical of the far right. On some social issues I would say he even leans somewhat liberal, which is why the genuine far right dislike him so much.

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jatz14

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No but his inconsistency is allowed to be pointed out.
Have you spoken out on all possible social issues?

If I can find an inequality somewhere you haven't raised, does this make you hypocritical, doubly so as you seem to be using this measure as a yardstick by which to judge others.

And I don't think I have seen anything posted by Peterson in a long time, so I couldn't say what he has and has not commented on, but if your hanging on his every word, I will defer to your superior knowledge.

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blackcat

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So, the far left ranted against him as a transphobe for opposing the law, and the far right ranted against him as a vapid lefty for stating that while the law shouldn't compel use of trans pronouns, you should use them anyway, as it's the right thing to do.
Peterson concedes that he cannot discriminate on basis of race therefore his verbiage for the ambigious class does require a reassessment

The conflagration as I see it owes a degree of fault in three 3segments , all attempting to enter MSM discourse , Peterson+CathyNewmantribe+mediaBBCtribe

without assessing the elements, it may be determined/baked-in

twitter account with sound point is @AmyTherese
It's a handle , something like Amie therese
USyd law faculty student clerking at one of the Syd magistrates court
 

Carringbush2010

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*He is, but often doesn't talk like it. I do believe he is fairly right wing, but with an underlying homespun philosophical base.
*See comment below.

*So, the far left ranted against him as a transphobe for opposing the law, and the far right ranted against him as a vapid lefty for stating that while the law shouldn't compel use of trans pronouns, you should use them anyway, as it's the right thing to do.
Going by this comment, he has far left opposition yet has praise from the far right and at the same time criticism from the far right about transgender having a right at all. Which he clearly believes transgender should have that right.

Which brings me to my point, his commentary (from what I've heard that admittedly is not much) seems pretty sensible even if sometimes simplistic or rather your term of 'underlying homespun philosophical base' or as some would put it, sensibly centred. Not necessarily a 'spin' to back his arguments.

Whichever way you boil it down and dissect it, the video that SJ put up, there's not a lot really anyone with sound mind could argue.

I think it'd be a mistake to view his arguments in that video as some sort of radical right view, or even that he's rather right leaning.
 

blackcat

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I think it'd be a mistake to view his arguments in that video as some sort of radical right view, or even that he's rather right leaning.

he IS right-of-centre / centre-right but this needle has been given new definition post-Cameron_BREXIT and Nov2016 US General Election , Peterson never shifts , the water surrounding him did*

*for all his ills Peterson still has significant intellect this would NOT have been lost on Peterson
 

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blackcat

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Does he describe himself as "of the right"? In what sense?
a conservative ,
small l liberal ,
a Lockean free-market'eer
tho not Milton Friedman ,
a Canadian avuncular intellect ,
ambitious
sort to carve out his role on international stage
actually champions<verb> women's ambitions in (competitive) corporate-career market
 
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Carringbush2010

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he IS right-of-centre / centre-right but this needle has been given new definition post-Cameron_BREXIT and Nov2016 US General Election , Peterson never shifts , the water surrounding him did*

*for all his ills Peterson still has significant intellect this would NOT have been lost on Peterson
I don't disagree he might be right of centre but hardly 'right wing', one can be either left or right leaning and still be sensibly centred. I'd argue the electorate is reflective of that.
 

jatz14

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Does he describe himself as "of the right"? In what sense?
In a video discussing some psychological study he said supported his points, cannot remember what the points were, or what the study was, he said 'the study was not done by some right wing psychologists, because all the right wing psychologists there are, are in this room' ie, him.
 

Sweet Jesus

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In a video discussing some psychological study he said supported his points, cannot remember what the points were, or what the study was, he said 'the study was not done by some right wing psychologists, because all the right wing psychologists there are, are in this room' ie, him.
I'd be curious to see that. I've never heard him say that he's "of the right" or even really lean in hard on electoral politics in a way that would make that case.
 

jatz14

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I'd be curious to see that. I've never heard him say that he's "of the right" or even really lean in hard on electoral politics in a way that would make that case.
It was a recording of a public lecture, or possibly debate, as I seem to recall he wasn't the only speaker. Frankly the only thing I recall from it is him describing himself, or alluding to himself as a right wing psychologist, and his implication that he was about the only one.
 

blackcat

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I don't disagree he might be right of centre but hardly 'right wing', one can be either left or right leaning and still be sensibly centred. I'd argue the electorate is reflective of that.
2 points , one cannot conflate the zeitgeist prevalent and the flux of this equilibrium you^ note , my caveat is the error and conflation may be mine to bare , because one is hyper-atuned to the discourse on the internet
and finally , Peterson's register may be exaggerated because of the environment-the particular medium he operates in*
*this final anti-Hopper'ian point is mere speculation and intuition and is not subject to experiment and disproving
 

Sweet Jesus

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A for instance is his opposition to Canada's laws regarding pronoun choices, essentially making it a law that you use the pronoun the other person requires.

Peterson is vigorously against this law on the basis it compels speech. But at the same time, he says you should use the pronouns people choose as a matter of common decency.

So, the far left ranted against him as a transphobe for opposing the law, and the far right ranted against him as a vapid lefty for stating that while the law shouldn't compel use of trans pronouns, you should use them anyway, as it's the right thing to do.
But does that indicate he's RW?

Some folks would disagree with your characterisation of the law and Peterson's opposition to it. But the way you tell it, that seems like a reasonable liberal/ centre-left position.
 

blackcat

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But does that indicate he's RW?
concept creep , semiotic shift , the n.e.e.d.l.e. and language(definition) moved .

Peterson's antagonism is less the thought and more the wrongSPEAK
those who do not agree with him will smear him , but he utters the thought which is held by the overwhelming majority (not merely the silent majority)

*independent of politics , this is a beltway(SanFran,LA,NY.Boston,Sydney,Melbourne) issue and echo chamber for ABC,Fairfax folk who have stranglehold on culture debate
 
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Sweet Jesus

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concept creep , semiotic shift , the n.e.e.d.l.e. and language(definition) moved .

Peterson's antagonism is less the thought and more the wrongSPEAK
those who do not agree with him will smear him , but he utters the thought which is held by the overwhelming majority (not merely the silent majority)

*independent of politics , this is a beltway(SanFran,LA,NY.Boston,Sydney,Melbourne) issue and echo chamber for ABC,Fairfax folk who have stranglehold on culture debate
It's become self-aware.
 

Carringbush2010

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2 points , one cannot conflate the zeitgeist prevalent and the flux of this equilibrium you^ note , my caveat is the error and conflation may be mine to bare , because one is hyper-atuned to the discourse on the internet
and finally , Peterson's register may be exaggerated because of the environment-the particular medium he operates in*
*this final anti-Hopper'ian point is mere speculation and intuition and is not subject to experiment and disproving
One could argue it is not a conflation, and it was not my intent to put it that way. Secondly either either how one perceives his language (or perceived internet hyperbole as you put it), to me, in that video the language was pretty clear and simple.
 

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