Society/Culture Jordan B Peterson

[its free real estate]

Yeah I did hear about that, and micro doses of ketamine for depression. So many potentially useful tools that we've had for decades but largely ignored in the medical field.

Nah, not ignored, banned from researching.

 

[yebiga]

Pretty much what I said. How do you pretend to understand JP if you did not understand my simple statement?

It all goes back to the post I first responded to your virtue signalling

 

[JimDocker]

It all goes back to the post I first responded to your virtue signalling

Seriously? Virtue signaling ?

 

[yebiga]

What is fascinating is that if somebody labels JP a right winger, all hell breaks loose, but it is just accepted that his critics are all leftists with no free will.

I run a business and have done for almost 10 years. I currently employ 16 people. Has been 25 at my busiest. I believe in a market economy. I believe that people should be able to work hard and benefit from that hard work. Sound like a right winger ?

I despise bigotry. I hate offending people when it is easy not to by adjusting my language. I believe in the welfare state and think we need a safety net for people that would fall through the gaps. I think that inequality is one of the largest issues we face today. I believe that man made climate change is a thing. Lefty ? Commie ?

I think identity politics was necessary. I believe that women, people of colour etc. needed a hand up after entrenched disadvantage. I find it hard to believe that any thinking person does not understand this concept and that they would think there was no patriarchal hierarchy. (Because lobster)

I hate the idea of cultural appropriation being offensive in any situation. I get that cheap imitation indigenous art being made in a factory in Indonesia is wrong. Elvis Presley singing Hound Dog, to me is just part of cultural exchange.

Culturally, I am definitely left wing, but don't accept anything without questioning it.

Perhaps reread this and tell me you weren’t virtue signalling

 

[JimDocker]

I was trying to show that we don’t all belong within a defined binary position. That left and right are not always useful labels when discussing issues that require nuance.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[CheapCharlie]

Perhaps reread this and tell me you weren’t virtue signalling

Definite virtue signalling alert

 

[yebiga]

I was trying to show that we don’t all belong within a defined binary position. That left and right are not always useful labels when discussing issues that require nuance.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

On that we agree

 

[Taylor]

The next wave of super left thinking will be Offense Appropriation where the group that feel victimised go after those who stand up for them for stealing their platform to launch their own rebuttal..

And we shall achieve full circle.

 

[ShanDog]

The next wave of super left thinking will be Offense Appropriation where the group that feel victimised go after those who stand up for them for stealing their platform to launch their own rebuttal..

And we shall achieve full circle.

Hah! I joked about that as a comment on a satirical piece just yesterday. I professed that I was traumatised by something that happened to someone, but then realised I was appropriating and internalizing THEIR trauma, which made it even more traumatic.

 

[Taylor]

Hah! I joked about that as a comment on a satirical piece just yesterday. I professed that I was traumatised by something that happened to someone, but then realised I was appropriating and internalizing THEIR trauma, which made it even more traumatic.

You're woke AF.

It shouldn't take too long for it to move onto that, forever climbing to try and find a new position of higher virtue will lead there.

But I need to figure out a way that they not appropriate someone else's issue and offence that can still be publicly voiced.

After all, what's the point in virtue you can't preach? That's just character, which is worthless.

 

[Snake_Baker]

An excellent breakdown of the lobster analogy

 

[twotooto]

Good analysis.

This line sums up a lot of the criticism Peterson gets and indeed, a lot of the rabid and fallacious logic employed in debates/discussion by the so called 'new left'.

"So many of Peterson's detractors see Peterson as something he's not. So instead of confronting the arguments he's actually articulating, they're left arguing against misrepresentations and their own logically incoherent drivel".

 

[Snake_Baker]

Good analysis.

This line sums up a lot of the criticism Peterson gets and indeed, a lot of the rabid and fallacious logic employed in debates/discussion by the so called 'new left'.

"So many of Peterson's detractors see Peterson as something he's not. So instead of confronting the arguments he's actually articulating, they're left arguing against misrepresentations and their own logically incoherent drivel".

His critics are generally people who cannot move beyond the initial emotional response. Once it's triggered, they are locked in to it and cannot escape.

In other words, they're not smart people.

 

[JimDocker]

How many people here actually believe that hierarchies in our society are based on competence, rather than dominance ? It may be the case in nature, but we as humans are no longer living at one with nature. Peterson's claim that hierarchy has nothing to do with socio-cultural construction may explain why hierarchies exist in nature, but does nothing to explain why hierarchies are constructed the way they are in human societies.

Marie Curie was surely one of the most competent scientists around. She was not allowed to enrol in higher education. That was not based on competence, but dominance.

Does anybody think that Donald Trump is the man most competent to lead the US at the moment ? His money made him a dominant figure.

There are countless examples of hierarchies existing in humankind that are socio-cultural constructs.

 

[Snake_Baker]

How many people here actually believe that hierarchies in our society are based on competence, rather than dominance ?

Me.

Does anybody think that Donald Trump is the man most competent to lead the US at the moment ?

He is preferred in competence over another party in what is designed to be a two horse race.

 

[JimDocker]

Me.



He is preferred in competence over another party in what is designed to be a two horse race.

You defeated your own argument. "in what is designed to be a two horse race".

Designed ? As in social construct ? As opposed to competence.

 

[Taylor]

An example of competency hierarchy is the doctor you choose.

Your preferred mechanic.

Any tradespersons you recommend.

I'm not held down by my neck, bent over and forced to accept the powerful dominant doctor, electrician etc.

I choose the one who is most skilled. That's a competence measurement

 

[ShanDog]

You defeated your own argument. "in what is designed to be a two horse race".

Designed ? As in social construct ? As opposed to competence.

In western society, competence is far more likely to result in you being atop the social hierarchy (or "dominant"). Competence breeds dominance. Don't believe me? Trying walking down the street and punching everyone you see until they state that you are their leader. See how long that lasts. Alternatively, you have build yourself a small fortune over time, use it to run for office, get elected and then achieve something similar. That requires competence.

 

[Snake_Baker]

You defeated your own argument. "in what is designed to be a two horse race".

Designed ? As in social construct ? As opposed to competence.

Structured to bring a specific outcome by and for the most competent people.

 

[JimDocker]

An example of competency hierarchy is the doctor you choose.

Your preferred mechanic.

Any tradespersons you recommend.

I'm not held down by my neck, bent over and forced to accept the powerful dominant doctor, electrician etc.

I choose the one who is most skilled. That's a competence measurement

I am not saying that no hierarchy ever has nothing to do with competence, but do we know that the best people around, the most competent are the ones that get to medical school ? You are talking on a micro level regarding who we choose. I am talking macro on whether there could have been a better pool for us to choose from. How many great doctors could there be that never got a chance due to socio-economic-cultural reasons ?

 

[Snake_Baker]

An example of competency hierarchy is the doctor you choose.

Your preferred mechanic.

Any tradespersons you recommend.

I'm not held down by my neck, bent over and forced to accept the powerful dominant doctor, electrician etc.

I choose the one who is most skilled. That's a competence measurement

Yep, and it overwhelmingly determines the dominance hierarchy.

 

[JimDocker]

In western society, competence is far more likely to result in you being atop the social hierarchy (or "dominant"). Competence breeds dominance. Don't believe me? Trying walking down the street and punching everyone you see until they state that you are their leader. See how long that lasts. Alternatively, you have build yourself a small fortune over time, use it to run for office, get elected and then achieve something similar. That requires competence.

Build yourself a small fortune ?

Trump has often said that he began his career with "a small loan of one million dollars" from his father, and that he had to pay it back with interest. In October 2018, The New York Times published an exposé drawing on more than 100,000 pages of tax returns and financial records from Fred Trump's businesses, and interviews with former advisers and employees. The Times concluded that Donald Trump "was a millionaire by age 8", and that he had received at least $413 million (adjusted for inflation) from his father's business empire over his lifetime. According to the Times, Trump borrowed at least $60 million from his father, and largely failed to reimburse him.

He certainly knows how to play the game and there is a certain competence in that. Getting elected was an achievement. He set out to do something and got it done. A degree of competence was involved, but if there is any social construct that exemplifies dominance over competence, it is the political system. Look at The US, Australia and the UK and tell me that the best people possible are in positions of power, based purely on competence.

 

[ShanDog]

Build yourself a small fortune ?

Trump has often said that he began his career with "a small loan of one million dollars" from his father, and that he had to pay it back with interest. In October 2018, The New York Times published an exposé drawing on more than 100,000 pages of tax returns and financial records from Fred Trump's businesses, and interviews with former advisers and employees. The Times concluded that Donald Trump "was a millionaire by age 8", and that he had received at least $413 million (adjusted for inflation) from his father's business empire over his lifetime. According to the Times, Trump borrowed at least $60 million from his father, and largely failed to reimburse him.

He certainly knows how to play the game and there is a certain competence in that. Getting elected was an achievement. He set out to do something and got it done. A degree of competence was involved, but if there is any social construct that exemplifies dominance over competence, it is the political system. Look at The US, Australia and the UK and tell me that the best people possible are in positions of power, based purely on competence.

Yep, build it or inherit it, and then manage to not piss it away completely. I loathe to discuss Trump, but from what I can tell, he was smart enough to engage in just the right type of campaigning to win the apparently unwinnable election. It's a sneaky, manipulative and conniving sort of competence, but its competence nonetheless. And to the degree he has managed to maintain enough money to do all that, he was competent there too.

In some areas of society, people can get away with becoming the elite (or most dominant) despite not being the most competent in general. It's s**t, and any ideas on how to change that are more than welcome as far as I'm concerned. But the other thing our system brings is stability and safety. The systems of government in the west are largely successful at the peaceful transfer of power - something that can't be said about humans historically.

 

[owen87]

Yep, build it or inherit it, and then manage to not piss it away completely. I loathe to discuss Trump, but from what I can tell, he was smart enough to engage in just the right type of campaigning to win the apparently unwinnable election. It's a sneaky, manipulative and conniving sort of competence, but its competence nonetheless. And to the degree he has managed to maintain enough money to do all that, he was competent there too.

In some areas of society, people can get away with becoming the elite (or most dominant) despite not being the most competent in general. It's s**t, and any ideas on how to change that are more than welcome as far as I'm concerned. But the other thing our system brings is stability and safety. The systems of government in the west are largely successful at the peaceful transfer of power - something that can't be said about humans historically.

It’s also impractical and unrealistic to expect any system to be 100% dictated by competence when dealing with such massive numbers of population.

How do we know who the most competent person to be the US President is? How could we from a pool of ~300m or so people?

There’s flaws in the system, and we should strive to correct and improve upon them, but pretending competence is in no way related to the outcome is disingenuous.

 

[JimDocker]

It’s also impractical and unrealistic to expect any system to be 100% dictated by competence when dealing with such massive numbers of population.

How do we know who the most competent person to be the US President is? How could we from a pool of ~300m or so people?

There’s flaws in the system, and we should strive to correct and improve upon them, but pretending competence is in no way related to the outcome is disingenuous.

I never suggested competence is in no way related to the outcome. I said that societal constructs are also important.