NO TROLLS Jordan De Goey arrested for assault in New York

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Westicle said:
Also very easy to make a false claim. No physical evidence, very damaging to the reputation of the accused, great way to extort and/or punish someone for a perceived slight (or provide an "easy" explanation for what is often a messy and nuanced situation). The dirty little secret of working in sexual offences is how many complaints don't proceed because they lack credibility. The stats you are talking about record these matters as complaints that do not proceed to charges, but everyone involved in the process knows an assault either didn't happen, or didn't happen in the way alleged by the complainant.
Click to expand...
it is the ultimate grey area

at my workplace, evidence doesn't come into it, if the complainant feels uncomfortable/harassed then it has by definition occurred. This does seem unfair to the accused.

but cops need evidence, and they need the complainant to be prepared to be a witness and relive it etc. This is an unreasonable burden on the victim.

just a mess.
 

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Westicle said:
Also very easy to make a false claim. No physical evidence, very damaging to the reputation of the accused, great way to extort and/or punish someone for a perceived slight (or provide an "easy" explanation for what is often a messy and nuanced situation). The dirty little secret of working in sexual offences is how many complaints don't proceed because they lack credibility. The stats you are talking about record these matters as complaints that do not proceed to charges, but everyone involved in the process knows an assault either didn't happen, or didn't happen in the way alleged by the complainant.
Click to expand...
This is so utterly dumb it's not worth trying to explain to you how wrong you've got it.
 
NaturalDisaster said:
Crime shows have got it into peoples heads that complaintants can "drop or press charges".

They can not, they can only make a complaint. Police decide whether to press or drop charges,
Click to expand...

Whilst technically correct if the victim and key witness withdraws their statement and refuses to give evidence then the police aren't going to waste their time going to trial. In this case specifically they'd be relying on, at best, unconvincing CCTV footage of a crowded dancefloor and the testimony of heavily intoxicated witnesses.

Any decent defence lawyer would have a field day.
 
PetterdHoisted said:
sexual assault..is there any other charge that so consistently fails to stick?

always he said vs she said, and 99% of the time the female just wants to forget it ever happened and move on.

I'd love to see the stats
Click to expand...


Redirect Notice

www.google.com

https://www.rainn.org/articles/what-expect-criminal-justice-system (Rape, Abuse and Incest Survivors Network page - pay particular note to the below):

Why would the state decide not to move ahead with the case?
If law enforcement or the prosecution team feel that they are not able to prove guilt, they may decide not to press charges. They may have encountered challenges proving the case due to a lack of evidence, an inability to identify the perpetrator, or other factors. It can be tough to hear, but this is not meant to diminish your experience. Out of every 1000 instances of rape, only 13 cases get referred to a prosecutor, and only 7 cases will lead to a felony conviction.1 No matter the final outcome, reporting increases the likelihood that the perpetrator will face consequences."

www.google.com

Half of rape victims drop out of cases even after suspect is identified

Exclusive: leaked Cabinet Office report reveals justice system fails claimants and lack of resources may impede investigations
www.google.com www.google.com

"Last year, more than 20,000 women – an average of one every 30 minutes – decided not to proceed with a rape investigation, even when the suspect had been identified.
Campaigners believe the sharp rise may reflect victims being discouraged from pursuing complaints because they face disclosure of their intimate, private life through requests for the contents of their phones and laptops. The sheer length of time from offence to completion at court, which has increased by 37% to an average of two years since 2014, may be deterring others."

And this article is the most damning of all - as it highlights exactly what each victim faced (some high profile women too ):

www.google.com

'Barbaric and inhumane': Why do so few rapists go to jail?

It's a shocking statistic that rarely budges: only one in 10 reported cases of sexual assault results in a conviction. Survivors say the courts are stacked against them, but legal experts say the system is fair. So who's right?
www.google.com www.google.com

(some key excerpts from the article - notably one from a female lawyer who found the process tough, even though she knew it back to front)

A long wait to be heard
Sexual assault cases often take months or even years to reach a verdict. Social worker Kate Ravenscroft was assaulted by a taxi driver outside her home in 2010.

Two years passed before he was extradited to Victoria from India to face court and two years more before a plea deal was struck.

"It was an incredibly tiresome and gruelling process", she says. "I could get a call at any stage and be required to go into court and relive the incident for a whole bunch of strangers."

Defence barrister John Desmond says barristers do not deliberately prolong the process but there can be delays.

"Defence barristers may deliberately seek an adjournment so they are confident that the defence case has been thoroughly and properly prepared," he says.

"It is contrary to anyone's interests, the accused in particular, that memories are fading with the passage of time."

Lawyer and sexual assault survivor, Bri Lee says this can have a chilling effect on complainants.

"The longer the delay, the more likely the complainant is to drop off and barristers and defence teams know that. It's in their interests to delay things as much as possible."

But Mr Cowdery says some delays are inevitable.

"There are always going to be things that occur from time to time which have a delaying effect on the hearing.

"Sometimes those circumstances just have to be accommodated for fairness to the accused and for justice to be done in the case."

Cross-examinations put the victim on trial
Ms Lee took her abuser to court. As a lawyer, she knew what was in store, but still she found the experience harrowing.

"The way we currently allow defence barristers to cross-examine complainants is barbaric and inhumane," she says.

"There are no caps on how many hours cross-examination might go on for.

"To be called a liar, to have your credibility and character decimated ... it is so horrific as well as that being the moment you have to recount what was done to you."
Click to expand...

It's hard to reach a verdict
Reaching a verdict in sexual assault cases is difficult.

"It must be proven beyond reasonable doubt and there is a presumption of innocence," says Mr Desmond.

"The vast majority of these cases involve the incident happening in secret.

"There are no eyewitnesses, and usually there is not relevant DNA and an absence of injuries. So, it is one person's word against the accused's word — that's the difficulty complainants face."
Click to expand...
As a result, prosecutors will often negotiate a "plea deal" — where the defendant pleads guilty to a lesser offence — to bring things to a conclusion. While Ms Remeikis thought she was the "perfect victim" to secure a sexual assault conviction, she weighed up the prosecution's offer.

"The DPP told me it was going to come down to word against word, that I could go through the court case, but they had a much better chance of getting a lower plea of assault.

"I was exhausted at that stage — tired of fighting absolutely everything and wanted to get on with my life."

A plea deal was also struck with Ms Ravenscroft's attacker, four years after the incident took place.

"Instead of facing two charges of sexual assault and going to trial he was charged on a single charge of indecent assault," she says."

***************************
 
Last edited:
Westicle said:
Also very easy to make a false claim. No physical evidence, very damaging to the reputation of the accused, great way to extort and/or punish someone for a perceived slight (or provide an "easy" explanation for what is often a messy and nuanced situation). The dirty little secret of working in sexual offences is how many complaints don't proceed because they lack credibility. The stats you are talking about record these matters as complaints that do not proceed to charges, but everyone involved in the process knows an assault either didn't happen, or didn't happen in the way alleged by the complainant.
Click to expand...

Wow you're so concerned about the minute number of false allegations, yet you couldn't care less about the vast majority of allegations that go unprosecuted, due to the harrowing nature of having your entire persona dragged through the courts and picked apart by the prosecution for an average of two years - and that still doesn't usually result in a prosecution of rape, but a lesser assault charge.

Fascinating that you're so worried about these 'poor innocent men', but you don't spare a thought for women getting raped every 30 minutes and f*ck all being done about it due to a legal system heavily weighted against them.

Round of applause for you.
 
Shadow89 said:
You make me sick.

There's been some pretty bad comments in this thread, but this absolutely tone-deaf one takes the cake.

A little reading wouldn't go astray perhaps?

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

https://www.rainn.org/articles/what-expect-criminal-justice-system (Rape, Abuse and Incest Survivors Network page - pay particular note to the below):

Why would the state decide not to move ahead with the case?
If law enforcement or the prosecution team feel that they are not able to prove guilt, they may decide not to press charges. They may have encountered challenges proving the case due to a lack of evidence, an inability to identify the perpetrator, or other factors. It can be tough to hear, but this is not meant to diminish your experience. Out of every 1000 instances of rape, only 13 cases get referred to a prosecutor, and only 7 cases will lead to a felony conviction.1 No matter the final outcome, reporting increases the likelihood that the perpetrator will face consequences."

www.google.com

Half of rape victims drop out of cases even after suspect is identified

Exclusive: leaked Cabinet Office report reveals justice system fails claimants and lack of resources may impede investigations
www.google.com www.google.com

"Last year, more than 20,000 women – an average of one every 30 minutes – decided not to proceed with a rape investigation, even when the suspect had been identified.
Campaigners believe the sharp rise may reflect victims being discouraged from pursuing complaints because they face disclosure of their intimate, private life through requests for the contents of their phones and laptops. The sheer length of time from offence to completion at court, which has increased by 37% to an average of two years since 2014, may be deterring others."

And this article is the most damning of all - as it highlights exactly what each victim faced (some high profile women too ):

www.google.com

'Barbaric and inhumane': Why do so few rapists go to jail?

It's a shocking statistic that rarely budges: only one in 10 reported cases of sexual assault results in a conviction. Survivors say the courts are stacked against them, but legal experts say the system is fair. So who's right?
www.google.com www.google.com

(some key excerpts from the article - notably one from a female lawyer who found the process tough, even though she knew it back to front)

A long wait to be heard
Sexual assault cases often take months or even years to reach a verdict. Social worker Kate Ravenscroft was assaulted by a taxi driver outside her home in 2010.

Two years passed before he was extradited to Victoria from India to face court and two years more before a plea deal was struck.

"It was an incredibly tiresome and gruelling process", she says. "I could get a call at any stage and be required to go into court and relive the incident for a whole bunch of strangers."

Defence barrister John Desmond says barristers do not deliberately prolong the process but there can be delays.

"Defence barristers may deliberately seek an adjournment so they are confident that the defence case has been thoroughly and properly prepared," he says.

"It is contrary to anyone's interests, the accused in particular, that memories are fading with the passage of time."

Lawyer and sexual assault survivor, Bri Lee says this can have a chilling effect on complainants.

"The longer the delay, the more likely the complainant is to drop off and barristers and defence teams know that. It's in their interests to delay things as much as possible."

But Mr Cowdery says some delays are inevitable.

"There are always going to be things that occur from time to time which have a delaying effect on the hearing.

"Sometimes those circumstances just have to be accommodated for fairness to the accused and for justice to be done in the case."

Cross-examinations put the victim on trial
Ms Lee took her abuser to court. As a lawyer, she knew what was in store, but still she found the experience harrowing.

"The way we currently allow defence barristers to cross-examine complainants is barbaric and inhumane," she says.

"There are no caps on how many hours cross-examination might go on for.



It's hard to reach a verdict
Reaching a verdict in sexual assault cases is difficult.

"It must be proven beyond reasonable doubt and there is a presumption of innocence," says Mr Desmond.

"The vast majority of these cases involve the incident happening in secret.


As a result, prosecutors will often negotiate a "plea deal" — where the defendant pleads guilty to a lesser offence — to bring things to a conclusion. While Ms Remeikis thought she was the "perfect victim" to secure a sexual assault conviction, she weighed up the prosecution's offer.

"The DPP told me it was going to come down to word against word, that I could go through the court case, but they had a much better chance of getting a lower plea of assault.

"I was exhausted at that stage — tired of fighting absolutely everything and wanted to get on with my life."

A plea deal was also struck with Ms Ravenscroft's attacker, four years after the incident took place.

"Instead of facing two charges of sexual assault and going to trial he was charged on a single charge of indecent assault," she says."

***************************

That took me 5 minutes to dig up and there are thousands of other peer researched articles I could cite at a moment's notice. The fact that you think that sexual assault cases being withdrawn is some sort of evidence of this whole conspiratorial web of lying women that never get assaulted, is quite frankly, f*cking ludicrous and absolutely appalling.

Literally 1% or less of cases that actually get some sort of verdict, are found to be falsified - yet you act like it's the reverse? What is wrong with some men that you're so fragile that you can't accept some of you are pr*cks and that women are actually being assaulted and raped?

F*cking hell. The fact that this mentality is still ride in the 21st century, proves that we're just going backwards in the evolutionary process.
Click to expand...
lol dude, where did I say women are lying?

I have done about 10 posts pointing how hard it is for women

trust me, I think we are in 100% agreement, I was actaully lamenting with my post that so many sexual assaults go unpunished because it is so hard to get the charge to stick, sorry if it sounded the other way.

Not that JDG is neccesarily guilty either.

Would be interesting if JDG goes all-out and says 'It is unfortunate that the charges were dropped as I was looking forward to the opportunity to clear my name'
 
PetterdHoisted said:
lol dude, where did I say women are lying?

I have done about 10 posts pointing how hard it is for women

trust me, I think we are in 100% agreement, I was actaully lamenting with my post that so many sexual assaults go unpunished because it is so hard to get the charge to stick, sorry if it sounded the other way.

Not that JDG is neccesarily guilty either.

Would be interesting if JDG goes all-out and says 'It is unfortunate that the charges were dropped as I was looking forward to the opportunity to clear my name'
Click to expand...

Ah I see, I'll edit the above then and apologies for the misunderstanding (but it definitely came across the other way upon re-reading it).

P.S. it also didn't help, you 'liking' the other poster who's supporting the 'falsely accused' narrative, when it came to judging what your intentions were - just an fyi
 
We'll never know either way but it's pretty suspect that this is now the second time he's had a charge of this nature evaporate into thin air.

I know it's really hard to prove this kind of charge, you basically need video evidence or it won't get off the ground.
 
Shadow89 said:

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

https://www.rainn.org/articles/what-expect-criminal-justice-system (Rape, Abuse and Incest Survivors Network page - pay particular note to the below):

Why would the state decide not to move ahead with the case?
If law enforcement or the prosecution team feel that they are not able to prove guilt, they may decide not to press charges. They may have encountered challenges proving the case due to a lack of evidence, an inability to identify the perpetrator, or other factors. It can be tough to hear, but this is not meant to diminish your experience. Out of every 1000 instances of rape, only 13 cases get referred to a prosecutor, and only 7 cases will lead to a felony conviction.1 No matter the final outcome, reporting increases the likelihood that the perpetrator will face consequences."

www.google.com

Half of rape victims drop out of cases even after suspect is identified

Exclusive: leaked Cabinet Office report reveals justice system fails claimants and lack of resources may impede investigations
www.google.com www.google.com

"Last year, more than 20,000 women – an average of one every 30 minutes – decided not to proceed with a rape investigation, even when the suspect had been identified.
Campaigners believe the sharp rise may reflect victims being discouraged from pursuing complaints because they face disclosure of their intimate, private life through requests for the contents of their phones and laptops. The sheer length of time from offence to completion at court, which has increased by 37% to an average of two years since 2014, may be deterring others."

And this article is the most damning of all - as it highlights exactly what each victim faced (some high profile women too ):

www.google.com

'Barbaric and inhumane': Why do so few rapists go to jail?

It's a shocking statistic that rarely budges: only one in 10 reported cases of sexual assault results in a conviction. Survivors say the courts are stacked against them, but legal experts say the system is fair. So who's right?
www.google.com www.google.com

(some key excerpts from the article - notably one from a female lawyer who found the process tough, even though she knew it back to front)

A long wait to be heard
Sexual assault cases often take months or even years to reach a verdict. Social worker Kate Ravenscroft was assaulted by a taxi driver outside her home in 2010.

Two years passed before he was extradited to Victoria from India to face court and two years more before a plea deal was struck.

"It was an incredibly tiresome and gruelling process", she says. "I could get a call at any stage and be required to go into court and relive the incident for a whole bunch of strangers."

Defence barrister John Desmond says barristers do not deliberately prolong the process but there can be delays.

"Defence barristers may deliberately seek an adjournment so they are confident that the defence case has been thoroughly and properly prepared," he says.

"It is contrary to anyone's interests, the accused in particular, that memories are fading with the passage of time."

Lawyer and sexual assault survivor, Bri Lee says this can have a chilling effect on complainants.

"The longer the delay, the more likely the complainant is to drop off and barristers and defence teams know that. It's in their interests to delay things as much as possible."

But Mr Cowdery says some delays are inevitable.

"There are always going to be things that occur from time to time which have a delaying effect on the hearing.

"Sometimes those circumstances just have to be accommodated for fairness to the accused and for justice to be done in the case."

Cross-examinations put the victim on trial
Ms Lee took her abuser to court. As a lawyer, she knew what was in store, but still she found the experience harrowing.

"The way we currently allow defence barristers to cross-examine complainants is barbaric and inhumane," she says.

"There are no caps on how many hours cross-examination might go on for.



It's hard to reach a verdict
Reaching a verdict in sexual assault cases is difficult.

"It must be proven beyond reasonable doubt and there is a presumption of innocence," says Mr Desmond.

"The vast majority of these cases involve the incident happening in secret.


As a result, prosecutors will often negotiate a "plea deal" — where the defendant pleads guilty to a lesser offence — to bring things to a conclusion. While Ms Remeikis thought she was the "perfect victim" to secure a sexual assault conviction, she weighed up the prosecution's offer.

"The DPP told me it was going to come down to word against word, that I could go through the court case, but they had a much better chance of getting a lower plea of assault.

"I was exhausted at that stage — tired of fighting absolutely everything and wanted to get on with my life."

A plea deal was also struck with Ms Ravenscroft's attacker, four years after the incident took place.

"Instead of facing two charges of sexual assault and going to trial he was charged on a single charge of indecent assault," she says."

***************************
Click to expand...

Call Me Cake - it's pretty messed up that you 'dislike' or 'disagree' with the aforementioned studies?

Imagine if you showed half the concern you show for the 1% of falsely accused men, for the 85+% of raped women who don't get any justice, hey?
 
Shadow89 said:
Call Me Cake - it's pretty messed up that you 'dislike' or 'disagree' with the aforementioned studies?

Imagine if you showed half the concern you show for the 1% of falsely accused men, for the 85+% of raped women who don't get any justice, hey?
Click to expand...
Like does not necessarily equate to agree. There are plenty of likes I've handed out to posts for reasons other than agreement. Perhaps other folk are the same? I have often wondered why there is no agree option.


www.lawandleadership.org

The Difference Between "Like" and "Agree" — The Law & Leadership Institute

Jayni D. - LLI Cleveland Schools shouldn’t be able to discipline students based on what they like. Depending on who you are, “like” has a different definition. The First Amendment is supposed to protect...
www.lawandleadership.org www.lawandleadership.org
 

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NaturalDisaster said:
Crime shows have got it into peoples heads that complaintants can "drop or press charges".

They can not, they can only make a complaint. Police decide whether to press or drop charges,
Click to expand...

That’s not entirely accurate. Yes police press the charge, However they only do on behalf of the complainant and not generally off their own accord.

In some cases where a victim is not present to make the complaint, such as a murder case, then yes it comes down to police to forward the case and charges for prosecution.

In other matters, police will only proceed with a charge if the victim proceeds with a complaint. Without a complaint, there is no victim and therefor no crime in most offences. For example, if you are the victim of a theft, assault, burglary etc but do not wish to press charges, the police will not press those charges on your behalf as effectively, there is no victim with no complaint.

No victim, no charge. Unless the victim is unable to press charges (dead) but there is enough evidence to suggest foul play then they will proceed. Similarly why unless a body is found, it is incredibly rare to get a murder charge without a victim.
 
powerrrrrrrrrrrr said:
That’s not entirely accurate. Yes police press the charge, However they only do on behalf of the complainant and not generally off their own accord.

In some cases where a victim is not present to make the complaint, such as a murder case, then yes it comes down to police to forward the case and charges for prosecution.

In other matters, police will only proceed with a charge if the victim proceeds with a complaint. Without a complaint, there is no victim and therefor no crime in most offences. For example, if you are the victim of a theft, assault, burglary etc but do not wish to press charges, the police will not press those charges on your behalf as effectively, there is no victim with no complaint.

No victim, no charge. Unless the victim is unable to press charges (dead) but there is enough evidence to suggest foul play then they will proceed. Similarly why unless a body is found, it is incredibly rare to get a murder charge without a victim.
Click to expand...
This is absolutely inaccurate. Police can and do press charges even if the victim does not want to proceed with a complaint; this is particularly helpful in cases of domestic violence, where the victim may be cowed into not pressing charges. If police deem there is enough evidence, regardless of the victim's co-operation, they can press charges. Likewise, it is possible to lay a murder charge if the body has not been found and has been done in the past, albeit it is much more difficult to prove the case.
 
RAPPA said:
At the end of the day, this DH puts himself in situations like this and his track record suggests it is more like than not that he did something stupid.
Click to expand...
Tbh, his track record doesn't need to factor into it.

This fallacy of women inventing assault charges is just a joke and isn't worth consideration. Sure, it extremely rarely happens, but 99.9999 times out of 100 the accusation is true.

The woman says he did it. He did it.
 
JackOutback said:
This is absolutely inaccurate. Police can and do press charges even if the victim does not want to proceed with a complaint; this is particularly helpful in cases of domestic violence, where the victim may be cowed into not pressing charges. If police deem there is enough evidence, regardless of the victim's co-operation, they can press charges. Likewise, it is possible to lay a murder charge if the body has not been found and has been done in the past, albeit it is much more difficult to prove the case.
Click to expand...

Exactly as I said, in certain cases and crime types yes the police can and do proceed with the charge regardless of the complaint. However that does not apply to all crimes.

As mentioned to name a few, assault, theft etc generally will not be charged by police without a complaint proceeding as there is no victim without a complaint (obviously outside of DV matters).
 
daicosdemis said:
The vast majority off allegations get dropped because of evidence that contradicts the allegations. You can bet your life that there is CCTV footage of De Goey NOT forcibly touching the alleged victim, hence the charges being dropped.
Click to expand...

Yeah I don't think I'm gonna 'bet my life' on something that none of us have any idea about. You're also literally just making s**t up with no evidence when you state the above.

There's just as much likelihood that the victim dropped it because De Goey enlisted the services of a high profile law firm - same one that defended Weinstein, Jay Z and P Diddy - and decided this was not worth the publicity and the hassle.

If you actually read the articles I posted earlier, you'd know that even when the accuser is identified and evidence is available, very rarely does it make all the way to a formalized rape verdict - as the charged are dropped down to lesser charges or a plea deal is reached due to cases dragging out for years (ala De Goey and the local domestic case being dismissed after 2 years of being deferred).

To so callously disregard any issues with the legal system, and the absolute mountain of peer-reviewed evidence that shows just how stacked the system is against rape victims - is f*cking disgusting and completely tone deaf.
 
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