Contracted Josh Dunkley [OOC 2022, requested a trade to Essendon, didn't get there]

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Bulldog Joe

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Wasn’t even my argument bro lol

All I said was no player in history that hasn’t won an AA has gone for 2 top 10 picks.

I didn’t even bring Boyd into this discussion, someone else did. All I said was that griffen was not worth a top 10 pick when he went to GWS. Which is factual.

No really sure what circular argument you think I’m involved in.
Except of course, that GWS were (apparently)prepared to pay better (1st and 2nd) just to get Griffen.
 

Mofra

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So you can't see why paying two top 10 picks (next year's will likely be a top 10 pick) is not a good idea? We've only selected 4 times in the first two rounds after 2015. McGrath is the only first rounder.

I'd begrudgingly accept if we gave up two of our top 10 picks this year for Dunkley and a second (as we still have another first), but Bulldogs wanted one of our top 10 picks this year and our first next year. Merrett could be leaving next year. McGrath only re-signed until 2022.

Missing a first round pick in next year's super draft would be a disaster for us. Just cannot afford to gamble our future like that. Essendon supporters would call for Dodoro's head if he gave up this year's first and next year's. Would be the final straw. One major injury and everything turns to sh*t.

I'd rather try again next year and see where we actually finish. We can afford to trade out our first in 2022 because we have the Davey twins coming through.
If Dunkley doesn't want to come, we have the salary cap space to throw money at an out of contract Oliver. Otherwise, next year's superdraft is full of good inside mids.
If you target a contracted player, you need to be prepared to pay a significant price for that player.
As it stands Dodoro didn't even offer a trade he would have accepted himself - surely you can see how ridiculous Dodoro's stance was.

At no point were two first rounders on the table from Dodoro - not just top ten picks, but two first rounders anywhere.
You are banking on unknown quantities over a player you specifically targeted, and still would have had first round draft picks after the trade. Quite simply, I think you're over-valuing draft picks especially considering what paid up for Shiel who was less of a need than Dunkley is now.
That's your right, but history isn't on the side of teams who fail to get their 'big' trades done.
 

JayJ20

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If you target a contracted player, you need to be prepared to pay a significant price for that player.
As it stands Dodoro didn't even offer a trade he would have accepted himself - surely you can see how ridiculous Dodoro's stance was.

At no point were two first rounders on the table from Dodoro - not just top ten picks, but two first rounders anywhere.
You are banking on unknown quantities over a player you specifically targeted, and still would have had first round draft picks after the trade. Quite simply, I think you're over-valuing draft picks especially considering what paid up for Shiel who was less of a need than Dunkley is now.
That's your right, but history isn't on the side of teams who fail to get their 'big' trades done.
I couldn't disagree more. Context is very important. You can target a player, but that doesn't mean you have to unjustifiably sell the farm just because you targeted the player. For example, if we continued to demand a first round pick for Fantasia, then Port have every right to walk away from the trade. The club asking for the player should also have a limit.

We were on the cusp of the 8 when we got Shiel (and the deal was heavily criticised back then too). It was two firsts for a second and Shiel. Still a hefty price to pay, but at least we finished close to the 8 with expectations that Daniher and Fantasia will come back the following year. This year, we lost Daniher, Fantasia and Saad. We finished 13th and won 1 of our last 10 games this year. We have ageing KPPs. One Dunkley won't change that.

If the contracted player is Oliver, then of course two top 10 picks is the price, but Dunkley is not in any way worth two top 10 picks. That's not just overs, but ridiculously overs and well past our limit. Bulldogs can ask for whatever they like, but the price they asked for would be one of the most expensive trades in AFL history. It's more expensive than the Lachie Neale trade. We're not in Geelong's position to be throwing away everything.

Bulldogs wanted two good first rounders (including a future first due to JUH), so trading down wasn't ever an option. I think Dodoro's offer was reasonable and he shouldn't have offered anything more than that. There's a reason why even Dunkley said: “With all respect, the Bulldogs really held onto me and made it a challenge for Essendon to get me."

We're not winning a premiership any time soon so I don't mind waiting another year and trying for Dunkley again or getting him when he is out of contract. Makes more sense.
 

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Mofra

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I couldn't disagree more. Context is very important. You can target a player, but that doesn't mean you have to unjustifiably sell the farm just because you targeted the player. For example, if we continued to demand a first round pick for Fantasia, then Port have every right to walk away from the trade. The club asking for the player should also have a limit.
Yes, context is important - most people would have thought two first rounders, with a second going back, was fair for a guy specifically targeted by the bidder and who has two years to run on a contract and offers so much off field.
Essendon chose to stay the course as is their right, and I'd argue that course hasn't proven to be fruitful in recent years.

At a minimum, I would expect any club who chases an uncontracted player to offer a deal they would themselves at least consider. Dodoro didn't, by his own admission. It was, in the end, just a massive waste of time by Dodoro.
 

JayJ20

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Yes, context is important - most people would have thought two first rounders, with a second going back, was fair for a guy specifically targeted by the bidder and who has two years to run on a contract and offers so much off field.
Essendon chose to stay the course as is their right, and I'd argue that course hasn't proven to be fruitful in recent years.
I'd say it was fruitful for Sydney with Daniher last year (not selling the farm) and in hindsight, Adelaide should have stuck with their original call of not trading for Gibbs because they were duped by Carlton to sell the farm the following year anyway, which spectacularly backfired. West Coast went backwards this year after doing the major trade with Kelly, but they still didn't sell the farm the first time. Essendon went backwards after doing the major trade for Shiel.

Do you see the pattern? Adelaide played in a grand final and West Coast played in a grand final, yet even they didn't immediately hand everything over to satisfy the other team for players that had more runs on the board than Dunkley.
I'd even go back to the Carlton and Judd trade. Carlton probably needed Kennedy more than Judd for success in hindsight. Selling the farm isn't always a good idea. You gotta look at your list before doing major trades. We are more in Carlton and Sydney's position than Adelaide and West Coast. It's just not a good idea for us to be handing two first rounders, with one in next year's super draft.

A second coming back was never a part of the deal. It was two good first rounders. Dodoro probably (and rightfully) anticipated Dunkley's worth to be closer to Tom Mitchell than Lachie Neale when he approached Bulldogs. He couldn't have anticipated for Bulldogs to ask more than a contracted Lachie Neale because that's too much.

I'm really not going to go back to his worth, but the only time two firsts and a second coming back is worth it is if it is two of our firsts this year with a second coming back. Bulldogs wanted our first next year, which immediately makes it a no deal. A top 10 pick next year is worth more than a top 10 pick this year. Even on a contracted Shiel, he also had more runs on the board than Dunkley currently does. There's no way Dunkley is worth more.
At a minimum, I would expect any club who chases an uncontracted player to offer a deal they would themselves at least consider. Dodoro didn't, by his own admission. It was, in the end, just a massive waste of time by Dodoro.
Dodoro wouldn't have done the deal unless he gets overs so he is not wrong there. He'd just say he is a contracted player. That wouldn't be the opposition's fault though. They can try their best, but any good list manager should have a limit.

It wasn't a waste of time on Dodoro's part because you have to try everything you can to improve your list without selling the farm. If it is too expensive, then try again when you have the resources.
 

Foxx

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Josh is 23 years old and ultra-professional. He's no top up and was clearly targeted for his professionalism and that he still has many years of good football ahead of him.
Essendon targeted the perfect player for them, just didn't want to pay the price to get him.
Sorry, I didn't put my point forward too well.
Yes his age and profile fits. But the price does not.
Essendon are not in a position to use two top 10's on one player.
 

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ScragCity

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I’m pretty sure the difference between what Essendon were offering and what he’s on now is more than 9% 🤔
Sorry, I didn't mean that we only saved him from having some of his salary withheld. I meant that we saved him from all of it. The pay withholding is just the most recent example.
 

owen87

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We're not in Geelong's position to be throwing away everything
Funnily enough, if you look at the approximate values of the picks they got back for next year, they traded less for Cameron than we did for Shiel, which was on par with what we offered for Dunkley (and is also what Neale went for).

Geelong really didn’t give away as much as it seems.
 

Significant

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Is it actually fact that Essendon wouldn't have gotten a second back?

Typically with these type of scenarios, once the Bombers are open to giving two firsts, the Bombers then ask for a bit more coming back their way if they are going to entertain such a position (similar to what Geelong did with GWS regarding Cameron, getting several seconds back in next years draft and evening out the trade).
 

Hoges64

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Is it actually fact that Essendon wouldn't have gotten a second back?

Typically with these type of scenarios, once the Bombers are open to giving two firsts, the Bombers then ask for a bit more coming back their way if they are going to entertain such a position (similar to what Geelong did with GWS regarding Cameron, getting several seconds back in next years draft and evening out the trade).
We'll never know. Power has a history (albeit small sample size) of not talking about these things publicly so we'll never know from a Dogs perspective, and because Essendon never even got into the position of offering two firsts there would have been no talk about a second going back.

It may have been floated in the bullshit proposition put forward by Ned Guy & Dodo in the 3-way Dunkley / Treloar / picks deal, but thats irrelevant.
 

Outback Footy

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I couldn't disagree more. Context is very important. You can target a player, but that doesn't mean you have to unjustifiably sell the farm just because you targeted the player. For example, if we continued to demand a first round pick for Fantasia, then Port have every right to walk away from the trade. The club asking for the player should also have a limit.

We were on the cusp of the 8 when we got Shiel (and the deal was heavily criticised back then too). It was two firsts for a second and Shiel. Still a hefty price to pay, but at least we finished close to the 8 with expectations that Daniher and Fantasia will come back the following year. This year, we lost Daniher, Fantasia and Saad. We finished 13th and won 1 of our last 10 games this year. We have ageing KPPs. One Dunkley won't change that.

If the contracted player is Oliver, then of course two top 10 picks is the price, but Dunkley is not in any way worth two top 10 picks. That's not just overs, but ridiculously overs and well past our limit. Bulldogs can ask for whatever they like, but the price they asked for would be one of the most expensive trades in AFL history. It's more expensive than the Lachie Neale trade. We're not in Geelong's position to be throwing away everything.

Bulldogs wanted two good first rounders (including a future first due to JUH), so trading down wasn't ever an option. I think Dodoro's offer was reasonable and he shouldn't have offered anything more than that. There's a reason why even Dunkley said: “With all respect, the Bulldogs really held onto me and made it a challenge for Essendon to get me."

We're not winning a premiership any time soon so I don't mind waiting another year and trying for Dunkley again or getting him when he is out of contract. Makes more sense.
Sorry, I didn't put my point forward too well.
Yes his age and profile fits. But the price does not.
Essendon are not in a position to use two top 10's on one player.
You needed to pay the required price. You didnt. He stays.

I'll repeat Mofras point which I havent seen addressed yet. Even Dodo said he wouldnt do the deal he offered us. Not aiming for a win/win, he always aims for a win/lose. Not effective.
 

Lore

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I'll repeat Mofras point which I havent seen addressed yet. Even Dodo said he wouldnt do the deal he offered us. Not aiming for a win/win, he always aims for a win/lose. Not effective.
I doubt you'll believe me as you have a vested interest in your own narrative, but when I heard him say that and the context in which he said it, I understood it to mean that he could understand Power not wanting to do a deal because if he had Josh on his list he wouldn't want to lose him either.

The price itself was a separate issue that he also commented on, explaining what the Dogs asked for (8 and our future first), explaining why he couldn't give up our future first, explaining the three way trade which Ned Guy had put together that rightly or wrongly they thought would get done, and detailing what he had offered on our behalf (iirc 8 and future 2nd) in a separate trade after the three way fell through, which he described as 'fair value'.

Fair value it may be (excluding all other factors, obviously), but you would now be needing to swap pick 8 for future picks if you had it, so understandably weren't even slightly interested.

Yup, needs to be closed. Issues finished. Both sets of fans have dug in and fighting for entrenched positions.

Bigfooty in a nutshell really
The thread won't be closed so long as people still want to talk about it, but once it quietens down a bit I'll archive this one in the sub-board and roll it over to a fresh 2021 thread on the main trades board, as it will inevitably be a topic of discussion next year (same as Daniher and Fantasia this year, and Josh Kelly every year). The only reason I haven't yet is because every time I've looked it's in the top 4 non-stickied threads on the board (typically we're waiting for threads to fall off the first page before moving them).
 

Elmer_Judd

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It shows that draft picks alone aren't the panacea to clubs performance - a fact Melbourne learned the hard way over many, many years.

It's amazing the number of times a club "overpayed" for a player and it worked for them - Shaun Burgoyne and Brad Ottens two of the most obvious ones. Professional clubs identify the player they need, and pull the trigger.
Would put Richmond and Dion Prestia in that same category Mof.

Unfortunately Adrian Dodoro is an egomaniac obsessed with trying to win deals, rather than do What is best for the Essendon Footy Club, which may explain why they have not won a final in almost 20 years
 

JayJ20

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Would put Richmond and Dion Prestia in that same category Mof.

Unfortunately Adrian Dodoro is an egomaniac obsessed with trying to win deals, rather than do What is best for the Essendon Footy Club, which may explain why they have not won a final in almost 20 years
Richmond paid pick 6. We'd be more than happy to pay pick 6 for Dunkley. Add a future second too.

But pick 8 and our future first after we finished 13th? It's clearly your blind hatred for Essendon and Dodoro speaking. Are you crazy? We are much better off taking it to the draft and try for Dunkley again next year. If we finish bottom 4 because of yet another injury run, then we'd give up pick 8 and pick 4 for Dunkley. That's absolutely reckless. I'd immediately call for every single person involved in that trade to be kicked out. Dogs would be laughing trading out a mid that couldn't crack their first choice midfield rotation for pick 8 and our future first.

We'll have the Davey twins coming through in the 2022 draft so that's a future first we can afford to give away next year. Draft big bodied mids this year, see where our 2021 first rounder ends up and re-assess next year.
It isn't about winning deals. It's about doing what's best for the club, which is pick up some talent this year and avoid trading out of a super draft.
 

Mofra

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Would put Richmond and Dion Prestia in that same category Mof.

Unfortunately Adrian Dodoro is an egomaniac obsessed with trying to win deals, rather than do What is best for the Essendon Footy Club, which may explain why they have not won a final in almost 20 years
Richmond also paid a fair bit for Caddy who is playing his best football at Richmond.
Practically every team who has won a Grand Final in recent memory seem to have paid "overs" at the trade table for a player or two as they view list management as more important than needing to "win" every individual trade.
 

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