Contracted Josh Dunkley [OOC 2022, requested a trade to Essendon, didn't get there]

[Lore]

2021 discussion: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/josh-dunkley-ooc-2022-2021-thread.1252259/

*2020 discussion stays here*

 

[Lore]

Richmond also paid a fair bit for Caddy who is playing his best football at Richmond.
Practically every team who has won a Grand Final in recent memory seem to have paid "overs" at the trade table for a player or two as they view list management as more important than needing to "win" every individual trade.

Difference is they didn’t cough that up when they were bottom 6 after losing key players, a rookie coach and with no discernible game plan overpaying for cream is not the same thing as overpaying for cake.

 

[Mofra]

Difference is they didn’t cough that up when they were bottom 6 after losing key players, a rookie coach and with no discernible game plan overpaying for cream is not the same thing as overpaying for cake.

Richmond finished bottom 6 2016 (13th) and traded out Brett Delideo at the end of the year, and came extremely close to sacking Dimma. That trade period was the one in which Presta and Caddy were traded in.
They also didn't target a contracted player, then low-ball the other team with an offer they wouldn't have accepted themselves. It's actually a good example in the difference in trading strategies of two clubs in a similar position.
Dunkley is cake, not cream.

 

[Lore]

Richmond finished bottom 6 2016 (13th) and traded out Brett Delideo at the end of the year, and came extremely close to sacking Dimma. That trade period was the one in which Presta and Caddy were traded in.
They also didn't target a contracted player, then low-ball the other team with an offer they wouldn't have accepted themselves. It's actually a good example in the difference in trading strategies of two clubs in a similar position.
Dunkley is cake, not cream.

And I’m saying you draft the cake and then pay a premium for cream later.

If you pay a premium for a couple of slices of cake you are still a couple of slices short and have no need of cream.

Richmond of 2016 had been 5th, 8th and 5th in the previous three years, they already had Dusty, Cotchin, Riewoldt and Rance on their list and in their prime. Sure that year was low but what they did at the end of it got the bones of a finals team that they already had into a position to contend the following year.

We currently have a retirement village in defence and a crèche up forward, most of our key players who have played in finals are gone, as is our coach (he was already going anyway).

Where we are now is more akin to Richmond circa 2012.

And yes, we lured a contracted player. Stupid wasn’t it?

 

[Mofra]

And I’m saying you draft the cake and then pay a premium for cream later.

If you pay a premium for a couple of slices of cake you are still a couple of slices short and have no need of cream.

Richmond of 2016 had been 5th, 8th and 5th in the previous three years, they already had Dusty, Cotchin, Riewoldt and Rance on their list and in their prime. Sure that year was low but what they did at the end of it got the bones of a finals team that they already had into a position to contend the following year.

We currently have a retirement village in defence and a crèche up forward, most of our key players who have played in finals are gone, as is our coach (he was already going anyway).

Where we are now is more akin to Richmond circa 2012.

And yes, we lured a contracted player. Stupid wasn’t it?

I don't think it was stupid at all - on and off the field Dunkley would the the perfect fit for Essendon.
Extremely highly rated for his character and is the inside ball winning beast you've cried out for years, in a year when you have multiple first round picks to get it done and are also looking for leadership and character.

It wasn't identification that was the issue, it was execution. If we rejected an offer Dodoro thought was fair we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact remains, Dodo wouldn't have accepted the deal he offered himself, and learned nothing from knocking back a monster offer for JD the year before.

I think there are issues with Essendon's list and the weird way Essendon fans so fervently defend Dodoro is baffling.

 

[Lore]

To take the analogy further, you have so much cake that it doesn’t fit in the midfield tin and you have to either take a piece out and put it in a different box or leave it on the bench to go stale.

Meanwhile we have a half full midfield tin and desperately need some more cake to fill it, and we have a couple of coupons to get some more slices.

Knowing that you have the whip hand, you’ve asked for two tokens for one slice that doesn’t fit in the box, when we could use our tokens to get two slices in the draft.

So of course we said no, and now you’re rearranging your tins trying to fit all the pieces in so they don’t go stale.

Meanwhile you could probably do with some cream but don’t have the tokens for it atm.

 

[Mofra]

To take the analogy further, you have so much cake that it doesn’t fit in the midfield tin and you have to either take a piece out and put it in a different box or leave it on the bench to go stale.

Meanwhile we have a half full midfield tin and desperately need some more cake to fill it, and we have a couple of coupons to get some more slices.

Knowing that you have the whip hand, you’ve asked for two tokens for one slice that doesn’t fit in the box, when we could use our tokens to get two slices in the draft.

So of course we said no, and now you’re rearranging your tins trying to fit all the pieces in so they don’t go stale.

Meanwhile you could probably do with some cream but don’t have the tokens for it atm.

Many coaches believe that "you build from the inside out" - if we're talking cake, I'd say it is absence - not abundance - that is the issue with Essendon's midfield.

 

[Lore]

the weird way Essendon fans so fervently defend Dodoro is baffling.

In this particular case it appears to be a whole of club decision on what we were willing to pay and Dodoro has respected that, which I think is better than having someone go rogue. Richardson came over the top of him in the Shiel deal – which obviously didn’t work out that well for us considering the price he coughed up, but we seem to have learned from that.

What actually is in his purview is that the drafting has been inconsistent, and actually atrocious at times. The list is out of whack as a result and retention of key pieces has been garbage lately (like the last 6 or so years). It’s hard to decide which end of the stick to beat him with sometimes.

And the comments about what other Essendon supporters think are... well firstly, I’m one Essendon supporter and I don’t think that. Secondly, I’m not convinced many other Essendon supporters think that, in my experience he gets roasted a lot. Thirdly, you’re probably experiencing a few trolls that rather enjoy the tizzy everyone gets into about Dodoro at trade week. It’s like a bigfooty/AFL media obsession. But I wouldn’t say that their enjoyment of it is representative of what Essendon supporters (who are many with varied opinions) think in general.

 

[Lore]

Many coaches believe that "you build from the inside out" - if we're talking cake, I'd say it is absence - not abundance - that is the issue with Essendon's midfield.

Yes, which is why we’re not buying one slice for the price of two.

 

[Mofra]

And the comments about what other Essendon supporters think are... well firstly, I’m one Essendon supporter and I don’t think that. Secondly, I’m not convinced many other Essendon supporters think that, in my experience he gets roasted a lot. Thirdly, you’re probably experiencing a few trolls that rather enjoy the tizzy everyone gets into about Dodoro at trade week. It’s like a bigfooty/AFL media obsession. But I wouldn’t say that their enjoyment of it is representative of what Essendon supporters (who are many with varied opinions) think in general.

There is some criticism of Dodoro, but the defence of his trading this year and last is strident, and it's not one or two isolated examples.

Yes, which is why we’re not buying one slice for the price of two.

Again, refer previous comments about Dodoro not valuing his own deal as enough.

 

[Lore]

Again, refer previous comments about Dodoro not valuing his own deal as enough.

I’ve already responded to these.

 

[Lore]

There is some criticism of Dodoro, but the defence of his trading this year and last is strident, and it's not one or two isolated examples.

There is criticism of the list build. There is criticism of the funny buggers he plays sometimes. There is criticism of the retention rate. There is criticism of what was paid for Shiel. There is criticism for trading out of 2017, 2018 and 2019 drafts when we needed to build. The 2011 draft we bombed out completely. Other times we’ve taken good players when great players were available

There is criticism of his role in general, as head of that department when it is so riddled with problems. There is criticism of his promotion to GM. There is criticism of his relationships with the coteries, which seems to give him a lot of influence. Criticism of the list being treated as his personal play thing at times (he doesn’t need the money).

There is also criticism for the fact he’s been here for over 20 years when we could do with some fresh eyes and different opinions. Since Merv Keane left the offsider that does the draft stuff is one of his protégés too, so more insular recruiting and sameish opinions.

The fact that we have multiple long running threads on our board dealing with all of that speaks volumes- rarely is there anyone among them that defends him except during trade week when it’s funny.

Those that do defend him appear to run it something along the lines of:
- Sheedy was heavily influential in the recruiting until 2007 (that is, the build in that period was not a reflection of Dodoro)
- A belief that what he was building with Knights and then Hird/Bomber should have put us around the mark from 2013 onwards.
- That retention issues/loss of picks/removal from finals/general stress/missing preseasons/leaders on leave mostly related to the saga, tanked that build and left us with a hangover.
- Since 2016 or so, a belief at the club that seems to have permeated the list department that we were going to be contenders when the suspended players returned and drafting/trading accordingly.
- the fact that it failed being some combination of the returned players falling off a cliff earlier than they might have, a horror run of injuries (Daniher and Heppell in particular I suppose) and Worsfold’s questionable attitude towards press conferences - XD [this might be described as the hangover]
- Most recently the heavy involvement of Xavier Campbell and Daniel Richardson who seem to have been working in tandem (while the President has been largely absent).

Seemingly the club and the board are on a similar wavelength to the apologists, as he’s still there isn’t he?

That along with a tendency to bunker down and stick together which might tentatively be described as PTSD - something that Brasher acknowledged as incoming President, but the axe hasn’t fallen in the recruiting and list management department yet.

 

[Mofra]

There is criticism of the list build. There is criticism of the funny buggers he plays sometimes. There is criticism of the retention rate. There is criticism of what was paid for Shiel. There is criticism for trading out of 2017, 2018 and 2019 drafts when we needed to build. The 2011 draft we bombed out completely. Other times we’ve taken good players when great players were available

.. yet when discussing his actions here, there are no criticisms from Essendon supporters, only defenders.
I'm not going to wander onto a team board and engage in criticism of a team as it's rarely (if ever) welcomed. This is the area for it, and in general I don't believe Dodoro has negotiated in good faith in this instance by refusing to make an offer that in any way reflects the reality of chasing a contracted player who is rated highly on and off the field by the club he targeted.
I don't think there's anything more to be said, unless you have a cake recipe that is at least a little healthy (then I'm all ears).

 

[Lore]

.. yet when discussing his actions here, there are no criticisms from Essendon supporters, only defenders.
I'm not going to wander onto a team board and engage in criticism of a team as it's rarely (if ever) welcomed. This is the area for it, and in general I don't believe Dodoro has negotiated in good faith in this instance by refusing to make an offer that in any way reflects the reality of chasing a contracted player who is rated highly on and off the field by the club he targeted.
I don't think there's anything more to be said, unless you have a cake recipe that is at least a little healthy (then I'm all ears).

I think supporters of most teams are a little reticent, reluctant to eat their own in public (cake or teams, you choose).

 

[Mofra]

I think supporters of most teams are a little reticent to eat their own in public (cake or teams, you choose).

You haven't seen me eat cake in public on leg day

 

[JayJ20]

There is some criticism of Dodoro, but the defence of his trading this year and last is strident, and it's not one or two isolated examples.


Again, refer previous comments about Dodoro not valuing his own deal as enough.

There is pleeenty of criticism for Dodoro regarding Daniher. Many believed we should have traded Daniher last year instead of holding onto him. Plenty of criticism for the Shiel trade. Most Essendon fans also believed he unnecessarily made the Fantasia trade complicated.

I don’t have any problems with his conduct regarding the Dunkley trade though except for the length it took to come up with his offer. The final offer of pick 8 and a future second is more than enough. The 3-way trade for Treloar and Dunkley was also enough. Bulldogs just weren’t interested which is fair enough.

You’re misinterpreting Dodoro’s statement. Saying he wouldn’t do the deal if he was Bulldogs doesn’t mean he believes that’s what Dunkley is worth. It means he understands why Bulldogs didn’t trade Dunkley and would do the same for a player like him. A classic case of a player being worth more to a club than the open market considering Dunkley only has 3 quarters of one season last year to even justify a first rounder. There’s a reason why we targeted Dunkley over an Oliver type because he should realistically be cheaper than Oliver. Someone that’s pushed out of the midfield loses value.

Don’t think Dodoro or anyone expected the price to be 2 top 10 picks, which is what a contracted Oliver costs. We offered as high as we could and moved on from it. No issues there. All of Essendon, Bulldogs and Dunkley parted in an amicable way.

 

[TedDougChris]

He’s your 5th choice inside mid mate

The problem I have with this argument is:

People keep banging on that Dunkley isn't in the best XXX mids in the league - where the hell are the Bombers mids rated ???

1) He'd be Essendon's best midfielder - by a street.... Regardless of where he sits in the pecking order for us, he's miles in front of anyone Essendon have in that role.

2) Essendon have been proven not be able to draft midfielders, inside ones in particular. By contrast (and we are terrible at drafting key defenders - so we have our weaknesses too !!) - we have shown that we can draft midfielders.

So what you are saying is - you'll use the same strategy this year - to draft more midfielders (which by your success rate will not achieve the desired objective) - rather than actually grab one that can fill the gaps in your list.

Yes - you can argue the price is too high - but based upon history - you have got Merrett (who is good but very outside) and Heppell (average to good, injury hasn't helped) - in the last 10 years who are better than average AFL standard mids. McGrath is one who may get there this year. So the chance of those picks actually solving your problems in this area is close to zero.

Having said all that and waffled on for a while - we won't actually know the outcome for a few years anyway.....

 

[citizen-erased]

The problem I have with this argument is:

People keep banging on that Dunkley isn't in the best XXX mids in the league - where the hell are the Bombers mids rated ???

1) He'd be Essendon's best midfielder - by a street.... Regardless of where he sits in the pecking order for us, he's miles in front of anyone Essendon have in that role.

2) Essendon have been proven not be able to draft midfielders, inside ones in particular. By contrast (and we are terrible at drafting key defenders - so we have our weaknesses too !!) - we have shown that we can draft midfielders.

So what you are saying is - you'll use the same strategy this year - to draft more midfielders (which by your success rate will not achieve the desired objective) - rather than actually grab one that can fill the gaps in your list.

Yes - you can argue the price is too high - but based upon history - you have got Merrett (who is good but very outside) and Heppell (average to good, injury hasn't helped) - in the last 10 years who are better than average AFL standard mids. McGrath is one who may get there this year. So the chance of those picks actually solving your problems in this area is close to zero.

Having said all that and waffled on for a while - we won't actually know the outcome for a few years anyway.....

I have to argue point 1.
Merrett & Shiel are better than Dunkley.
He'd be our best inside mid, i'll give you that.

And he'd complete us nicely.
I would have offered 8 & F1 for Dunkley and some decent change (F2, maybe 14 and we assist with the JUH points similar to the Treloar deal)

F1 might well be top 5 next year, but what we'd want from that pick is exactly what Dunkley gives us now
And perhaps helps us convince Merrett to stay.

Draper Dunkley Shiel
Merrett McGrath Langford
Parish, Caldwell & picks 6 & 7 builds a nice midfield base to sustain for the next 8-10 years

 

[TedDougChris]

I have to argue point 1.
Merrett & Shiel are better than Dunkley.
He'd be our best inside mid, i'll give you that.

And he'd complete us nicely.
I would have offered 8 & F1 for Dunkley and some decent change (F2, maybe 14 and we assist with the JUH points similar to the Treloar deal)

F1 might well be top 5 next year, but what we'd want from that pick is exactly what Dunkley gives us now
And perhaps helps us convince Merrett to stay.

Draper Dunkley Shiel
Merrett McGrath Langford
Parish, Caldwell & picks 6 & 7 builds a nice midfield base to sustain for the next 8-10 years

I've taken rucks out - but I agree - that Draper could be very good for you which I've said elsewhere.

I'd argue that Dunkley is better than Merrett and Shiel due to the standards and leadership he sets - which you clearly targeted him for.

I think you are being a bit optimistic in your midfield base. Caldwell has played 2 games or something. Parish and Langford (the former in particular) haven't developed anywhere near as quickly as you would have liked. Merrett may not be there in 12 months (although you can make the same argument for Dunkley too !!)

If you look at the reverse, if Merrett goes and Dunkley stays - which is your concern in the highlighted section - that Dunkley would have helped retain players for you in the future.

Draper, Shiel, McGrath, Langford, Parish and Caldwell - plus kids - that's not a midfield that will worry many sides...

As I think we've discussed elsewhere - this was the time to get the right player in - and you missed the chance by not offering the deal that would have made it work...

 

[citizen-erased]

I've taken rucks out - but I agree - that Draper could be very good for you which I've said elsewhere.

I'd argue that Dunkley is better than Merrett and Shiel due to the standards and leadership he sets - which you clearly targeted him for.

I think you are being a bit optimistic in your midfield base. Caldwell has played 2 games or something. Parish and Langford (the former in particular) haven't developed anywhere near as quickly as you would have liked. Merrett may not be there in 12 months (although you can make the same argument for Dunkley too !!)

If you look at the reverse, if Merrett goes and Dunkley stays - which is your concern in the highlighted section - that Dunkley would have helped retain players for you in the future.

Draper, Shiel, McGrath, Langford, Parish and Caldwell - plus kids - that's not a midfield that will worry many sides...

As I think we've discussed elsewhere - this was the time to get the right player in - and you missed the chance by not offering the deal that would have made it work...

agree
Adding Dunkley and by extension ideally keeping Merrett sets us up nicely.

Parish's issue is we play him out of position. Like we did Langford for so long

When we put them in their rightful place, they florurished.
Langford is the perfect HFF/wing option. Tall, good kick and mark. Excellent decision maker.

Parish i'm still bullish on. Though will get interesting with Caldwell in, Heppell back & if we draft Phillips. That's a lot of competition for the spot he excels in.

F1 & 8 for Dunkley and 14 surely would have got it done.
Perhaps it's a lot. But it gives us a chance of improving our 2021 ladder position, then removes the risk of next years pick being so high.

8 v 14 this year is much of a muchness to us.
But for the Dogs, 8 would probably have got you the Treloar deal done, with the JUH picks plus the Pies F1 (8 & 14 for F1, JUH picks & Treloar)

 

[Hoges64]

He’s your 5th choice inside mid mate

He's really not.

I've said this before, but if we're basing our guys off pure midfield ability alone he's 2nd. Ahead of Macrae. Ahead of Libba. Ahead of Hunter. Ahead of Smith. Even ahead of now Treloar.

But he's a better forward than the 5 of them combined. Macrae should have a shock collar that restricts him from entering forward 50, and Smith has shown no forward craft so far. Like Libba he can score the occasional goal from a stoppage, but he's not a leading option, not a marking option, not a speedy crafty option. Hunter needs 30m of space as he's useless in a physical contest (and I trust him less in front of goal than John Butcher

John Butcher

Age

29

Ht

197cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.7

2star

K

5.1

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.3

5star

No current season stats available

D

7.8

2star

K

4.8

2star

HB

3.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.4

4star

G

2.6

5star

).

Dunkley can lead and mark, or outmuscle a resting defending mid or 4th or 5th defender. That's why he gets put there above the others. He's a victim of his own flexibility, like Bont.

But make no mistake, his is WELL AND TRULY our 2nd choice mid.

 

[the Ziebull]

So essentially dons turned down Dunkley for Nik Cox and Perkins

interested to track this at the end of all their careers

 

[boncer34]

So essentially dons turned down Dunkley for Nik Cox and Perkins

interested to track this at the end of all their careers

Nope. Try again.

 

[the Ziebull]

Nope. Try again.

What was the deal then?
Dogs wanted 2 first rounders
Dodo didn’t want to give more than 1

Ideally they wanted futures picks as first rounders in this draft would have been absorbed by JUH bid but I think they would have accepted 6 and 7 then flipped it

 

[boncer34]

What was the deal then?
Dogs wanted 2 first rounders
Dodo didn’t want to give more than 1

Ideally they wanted futures picks as first rounders in this draft would have been absorbed by JUH bid but I think they would have accepted 6 and 7 then flipped it

So you're aware that they wanted a future first but are discounting it coz you "think."

Cool. Good thread bump.