Judd v Bartel

[hk89]

Interesting statement, given that had Carlton made it to the prelim this year, it would have been the result of Judd's team mates rather than him. As good as he is, he went missing from their biggest game in about a decade, and one massive quarter from him would have got them over the line.

Yes, that is a fair enough assessment, but relating back to Judd v Bartel, how often is Bartel tagged as hard as Judd?

Your summation that he was poor in the "09 GF because he was goalless is the worst case of blinkers I've ever seen.

I didn't say he was poor, I was responding to a poster that used GF goals to suggest Bartel was better than Judd, and pointed out Bartel's goals came in games where his goals were not really the difference between a win and a loss (although you could always argue momentum changing in this years GF I guess). I also cheekily pointed out he'd scored 0 goals in the games that most needed them, but as you point out, he made other contributions in at least one of those.

Lenny Hayes was tearing us a new arse until Jim went to him and shut him down. Stats dont always mean everything.

Exactly, which is why looking at Jimmy's 5 goals in GFs, compared to Judd's 1 doesn't tell you much.

 

[Rockford]

Bartel kicked 3 goals in a GF won by over 6 goals. He also kicked 2 goals in the Port Adelaide massacre. He kicked 0 goals in the loss to hawks, and 0 goals in the close game against Saints.

Judd has only kicked 1 GF goal, but did it in a game in which his team won by a point. In the GF he lost, where he kicked no goals, he had TWICE as many clearances as the next highest clearance player, and smashed everyone in contested possessions, oh , and won the Norm Smith in a losing team. So again, Judd considerably more valuable to his team overall than Bartel.

Jimmy's goals in this last GF were critical, especially given the timing. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous. I only brought up the goals in GFs in response to the point about Judd being a better goal kicking mid. 2009 Bartel shutdown Hayes, we'll forgive him for not kicking a goal or two.

No one is denying that if you'd asked this question in 05 or 06 you'd take Judd. You talk about posters having short memories but I think it's more a case of judging them on past achievements. Those selecting Bartel at the moment don't have short memories, they're just not making the comparison between Bartel and the Judd of 5 or 6 years ago.

 

[hk89]

Jimmy's goals in this last GF were critical, especially given the timing. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous. I only brought up the goals in GFs in response to the point about Judd being a better goal kicking mid. 2009 Bartel shutdown Hayes, we'll forgive him for not kicking a goal or two.

Yes, I conceded the momentum aspect to this years goals in a follow up post. Nobody is denying Bartel had a great GF, and his shutdown role in 2009 probably also speaks of his versatility, but even if Judd could do that, there is no way a coach would 'waste' him on a role like that.

No one is denying that if you'd asked this question in 05 or 06 you'd take Judd. You talk about posters having short memories but I think it's more a case of judging them on past achievements. Those selecting Bartel at the moment don't have short memories, they're just not making the comparison between Bartel and the Judd of 5 or 6 years ago.

Judd won the brownlow last year, and was overwhelming favourite this year. Yes, the brownlow has its deficiencies as a 'best player' award, but the favourites and winners are usually in the top 3-5 mids for the year. Bartel hasn't got close since 2007 (which I admit is surprising, but probably reflects his current roles, and "pop up to win a game" versus full season consistency over that period). I'd say BF posters not only have short memories, they have VERY short memories. Before the GF, how many "Bartel is having a great year" posts did we see on BF? For gods sake, betting agencies paid out on Judd for the Brownlow, such was the consensus on the year he had had.

 

[BlueDW]

If you want someone to perform in finals then it's Bartel all the way!

Judd won a Norm Smith when Bartel was struggling to get a game (same draft). As good as Bartel is, Judd is an out and out superstar of the game, and it would be a brave man to think that Judd isnt going to take his finals let down from this year personally, and come out and tear it up in September next year.

 

[BlueDW]

I'd rather have Bartel for the all-round ability...

I just wonder whether you saw Judd against Melbourne this year? Or were you too busy crying into your beer as Judd absolutely massacred them?

 

[BlueDW]

I dont think that we are comparing apples to apples in this poll. I just wonder how damaging Judd would be if he was allowed to float across half back as Bartel does a lot of the time.

Bartel is a terrific player, great clubman, fantastically versatile, but Judd he aint. Judd's ability to make players around him better is unparalelled. Even though he was down in the finals, he still takes a quality player each and every time he goes out there.

As an example, Judd gets a hard tag by Hocking in first week of the finals, therefore his production is down. The result of this is Murphy doesn't get tagged, and comes up with a lazy 37 touches and a couple of goals.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

I dont think that we are comparing apples to apples in this poll. I just wonder how damaging Judd would be if he was allowed to float across half back as Bartel does a lot of the time.

Bartel is a terrific player, great clubman, fantastically versatile, but Judd he aint. Judd's ability to make players around him better is unparalelled. Even though he was down in the finals, he still takes a quality player each and every time he goes out there.

As an example, Judd gets a hard tag by Hocking in first week of the finals, therefore his production is down. The result of this is Murphy doesn't get tagged, and comes up with a lazy 37 touches and a couple of goals.

Judd is an all time great and a champion. Probably the in the top 5 players of the last decade. Bartel wouldn't be in the Top 30 players of the last decade. Judd by a mile.

 

[blues4flag]

Judd is an all time great and a champion. Probably the in the top 5 players of the last decade. Bartel wouldn't be in the Top 30 players of the last decade. Judd by a mile.

There is no 'probably' about it. He's at worst second behind Ablett (Judd's first half of the decade was significantly better than Ablett's but Ablett's last five have been on another level). Matthew Scarlett deserves a mention and perhaps Dean Cox too, but no one else comes close.

 

[Rockford]

Bleating about how good Judd has been doesn't come into it. The poll is who would you prefer to have in your team going forward. Some people just don't have room for eye-gouging mercenaries in their side

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Bartel by the length of the straight.

 

[market]

Yep, i'll take Jimmy for the vote thanks...

Please leave the Cats and come and join the Hawks for 2012 onwards....

 

[HurleyTheFuture]

Yep, i'll take Jimmy for the vote thanks...

Please leave the Cats and come and join the Hawks for 2012 onwards....

Cant believe Bartel is winning
I would take judd easily

 

[Thermo]

Love Jimmy but have to go with Judd. Ablett and Judd on ball is so so drool worthy.

 

[8732watitdo]

C. Judd

 

[The_Doctor]

Its a joke that Bartel is winning this. Judd will go down as one of the greatest players ever while Jimmy will just be one of the good cats players. Judd had a stellar year this year while Bartel had an average at best year but had a very good grand final. The amount of people who only remember the last game they saw is astonishing.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Its a joke that Bartel is winning this. Judd will go down as one of the greatest players ever while Jimmy will just be one of the good cats players. Judd had a stellar year this year while Bartel had an average at best year but had a very good grand final. The amount of people who only remember the last game they saw is astonishing.

Yup. This is like the Brendon Goddard syndrome last year. Unfortunately, a large number of the general public aren't very bright, or are very fickle.

Bartel didn't even make the AA squad of 40. Judd is so far ahead of Bartel it's actually beyond joke. And you would take Judd easily for the rest of their careers.

 

[JUBJUB]

Yup. This is like the Brendon Goddard syndrome last year. Unfortunately, a large number of the general public aren't very bright, or are very fickle.

Bartel didn't even make the AA squad of 40. Judd is so far ahead of Bartel it's actually beyond joke. And you would take Judd easily for the rest of their careers.

You start these threads asking people who they'd prefer and then bitch when the result doesn't go the way you want it.What a moron

 

[Partridge]

Judd won a Norm Smith when Bartel was struggling to get a game (same draft). As good as Bartel is, Judd is an out and out superstar of the game, and it would be a brave man to think that Judd isnt going to take his finals let down from this year personally, and come out and tear it up in September next year.

Garbage. Unless I'm mistaken Judd's Norm Smith (a very dubious one at that) was in 2005, when Bartel was absolutely established in our senior side. Bartel didn't just come good in 2007, he was already going very nicely before that.

 

[Partridge]

Its a joke that Bartel is winning this. Judd will go down as one of the greatest players ever while Jimmy will just be one of the good cats players. Judd had a stellar year this year while Bartel had an average at best year but had a very good grand final. The amount of people who only remember the last game they saw is astonishing.

Please. No he won't. Might go down as one of the best of this era (there's plenty of players I'd happily put up there with him too), but all time? Laughable.

I'll give you Ablett, Carey, Matthews, Lockett, Williams without even thinking about it. All got him covered.

 

[BlueDW]

Garbage. Unless I'm mistaken Judd's Norm Smith (a very dubious one at that) was in 2005, when Bartel was absolutely established in our senior side. Bartel didn't just come good in 2007, he was already going very nicely before that.

In and out of the side for the first 3 or so years if I am not mistaken.

That said, the point I was making is that Judd has been an outstanding finals performer pretty much all of his career, except for the 2 this year. Some of the BF experts who have posted in this thread has tended to forget that judd has been a superstar pretty much since day 1.

 

[Rockford]

...you would take Judd easily...

Yeah, nah. You'd take Hodge, the Eagles would take Judd.. and then Judd would take the money.. and go to Carlton.

 

[STC]

Judd won a Norm Smith when Bartel was struggling to get a game (same draft). As good as Bartel is, Judd is an out and out superstar of the game, and it would be a brave man to think that Judd isnt going to take his finals let down from this year personally, and come out and tear it up in September next year.

Bartel finished 12th in the Brownlow in 2004, most votes in our team. He may have started the year on the outer but in the second half of the year he was so good we dug deep to appeal two reports he got in one game.

Judd certainly rose earlier, but that takes nothing away from Bartel's best.

 

[SexyBlueGirl]

Thread proves any poll with a Judd option should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[The_Doctor]

Please. No he won't. Might go down as one of the best of this era (there's plenty of players I'd happily put up there with him too), but all time? Laughable.

I'll give you Ablett, Carey, Matthews, Lockett, Williams without even thinking about it. All got him covered.

Yep and Judd rates along side them players, not a doubt in the world. Not saying he is better or worse but he will be put in that category.

 

[ferrisb]

Firstly, let me say that Judd and Bartel are both superstars. Anyone trying to prove their point by arguing Judd can't hit a target or cop a tag OR Bartel isn't influential enough or gets cheap possies of HBF is kidding themselves.

Personally, my first thought was Judd quite easily, but the more you think about the actual question asked (from 2012 onwards, not over their careers), the trickier it gets.

Over their careers, I think it's a pretty clear cut win to Judd (not by a country mile, but still clear decision). But looking ahead? I think Judd will have the highest peak output of the two from 2012 onwards. BUT my guess is that Bartel will last longer in the game (just a hunch).

So, do you take four seasons of 9.5/10 footy from Judd or five seasons of 9/10 footy from Jimmy? (note, VERY rough approximations for sake of argument, don't really want to start a fight over this, please)

My gut says Judd (probably helped by my Carlton bias, no doubt). Jimmy is one of my favourite players in the league, and much more versatile than Judd outside of the midfield, but I just get the feeling that Judd's impact on games is hard to beat.

If Judd and Bartel offered to swap to teams for the rest of their careers, which team would take the offer? Ignoring the players' previous achievements and team loyalty / salary cap issues etc, I have the feeling Carlton would think about it but ultimately say no. I don't doubt that Geelong might say no as well, but I dare say they would entertain the idea for a bit longer. That's the key for me. IMHO, Judd by a cat's whisker.


Ps – sorry for the essay. Was trying to do the topic (and the players) justice.