Current Julie Cutler - Murder - 1988 - Cottesloe WA *To the Coroner

[BFew]

Inquest into the Suspected death of Julie CUTLER

https://www.coronerscourt.wa.gov.au/_files/Inquest_2023/CUTLER, Julie Leanne.pdf (49 pages)
'[2023] WACOR 19
JURISDICTION : CORONER'S COURT OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA
ACT : CORONERS ACT 1996
CORONER : SARAH HELEN LINTON, DEPUTY STATE CORONER HEARD :
3 - 4 NOVEMBER 2022 DELIVERED : 6 APRIL 2023
FILE NO/S : CORC 830 of 2019
DECEASED : CUTLER, JULIE LEANNE'

 

[one eyed spy]

That would be the same floor as the main entrance. Because the Parmelia is on a hill, the first entrance on Mill St is actually a set of steps. Then there's a pub and a shopping arcade, then the main entrance lobby area on ground level. If Julianas was where the pub was or next to it, then you need the plan for the lobby floor. The lobby has doors between it and the arcade so that scan be shut off from the the arcade, hence two entrances on Mill St.
Back then, there was a large car Park at the back off the hotel backing onto Mercantile Lane. There was a rear entrance at the hotel into the car Park. It would be on the same level as the lobby IMO.

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Perth - Adelphi Hotel / Parmelia Hotel extensions / Julianas Supper Club - plans
Reference code AU WA S1457- cons5094 1548.

These are available at the State Library if anyone's going there.

 

[mrskafoops]

Perth - Adelphi Hotel / Parmelia Hotel extensions / Julianas Supper Club - plans
Reference code AU WA S1457- cons5094 1548.

These are available at the State Library if anyone's going there.

Thanks! I am going soon

 

[Redacted]

Thanks! I am going soon

Yep the pub is now called the Adelphi Steakhouse. I think Julianas was either next to it in the arcade or on the opposite end of the same arcade. If so, the logical exit for Julie Cutler would be the back entrance into the car Park on the mercantile lane side of the hotel. The car Park as it was has gone now. Replaced by multi level car parks and buildings, one of which is an extension of the Hotel. There is still is a rear loading dock for the pub between these buildings. I don't know if that's also possible for Parmelia staff to use

Catch Up with an Old Friend - Adelphi Bar and Grill, Parmelia Hilton Perth

Flourish food contributor Simon Owen visits the revamped Adelphi Bar and Grill at the Parmelia Hilton Perth.

flourishmagazine.com.au

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[mrskafoops]

Hi

Went to the library today and didn't have much time but found the first two articles on JC. I was surprised at how small the articles were and how far back in the paper they were published. The first one from Thursday was on page 8 and I think the one from Friday was on page 6. The longer one is the one from Fridays paper. One article says that both rear doors were locked but I have read that there was one rear door that couldn't be locked.

 

[one eyed spy]

Hi

Went to the library today and didn't have much time but found the first two articles on JC. I was surprised at how small the articles were and how far back in the paper they were published. The first one from Thursday was on page 8 and I think the one from Friday was on page 6. The longer one is the one from Fridays paper. One article says that both rear doors were locked but I have read that there was one rear door that couldn't be locked.

Some reports, particularly the earliest ones contain lots of info we've later learnt was wrong. The 2nd article says she was wearing a black shirt & white shirt yet we know she changed out of this uniform and was last seen wearing a black evening dress.

Did you go to the State Library & if so, did you manage to get a copy of the Juliana's plans?

 

[mrskafoops]

Some reports, particularly the earliest ones contain lots of info we've later learnt was wrong. The 2nd article says she was wearing a black shirt & white shirt yet we know she changed out of this uniform and was last seen wearing a black evening dress.

Did you go to the State Library & if so, did you manage to get a copy of the Juliana's plans?

Yes, I went to the state library. The area with the plans was closed on weekends. I can go back Tuesday to get them. I’ll post them when I get them.

 

[mrskafoops]

IIRC it has never been confirmed the uniform was Julie's. It was just assumed as it was Julie's size and nobody came forward to claim it. It was also only handed to Police quite some time (1 year later ??) after Julies disappearance.
I don't know if the police still have it, I hope so, but I wouldn't be holding my breath as other items possibly belonging to Julie have been thrown out (items found in the sand dunes).

Some reports, particularly the earliest ones contain lots of info we've later learnt was wrong. The 2nd article says she was wearing a black shirt & white shirt yet we know she changed out of this uniform and was last seen wearing a black evening dress.

Did you go to the State Library & if so, did you manage to get a copy of the Juliana's plans?

I was just thinking that if this is an accurate description of what she was wearing while working then the uniform found at King Kebab couldn’t be hers. In the article it says black skirt, white shirt and shoes. In the bag there was a white shirt and black stockings. No shirt. And the description of what Julie was wearing does not mention stockings. I think the uniform at King Kebab is unrelated to this case.

 

[one eyed spy]

I was just thinking that if this is an accurate description of what she was wearing while working then the uniform found at King Kebab couldn’t be hers. In the article it says black skirt, white shirt and shoes. In the bag there was a white shirt and black stockings. No shirt. And the description of what Julie was wearing does not mention stockings. I think the uniform at King Kebab is unrelated to this case.

You'll probably find articles that mention she was wearing stockings. The shirt was apparently one of only 37 made for staff & it was in her size.

 

[zedx]

I was just thinking that if this is an accurate description of what she was wearing while working then the uniform found at King Kebab couldn’t be hers. In the article it says black skirt, white shirt and shoes. In the bag there was a white shirt and black stockings. No shirt. And the description of what Julie was wearing does not mention stockings. I think the uniform at King Kebab is unrelated to this case.

It would be interesting to know if the hotel had a uniform register? I wonder if any of the staff at the time were interviewed regarding the found uniform? Surely it would not have been too hard to track down whose it was??
If there were only 37 shirts made and the company had to dry clean them, that would make rotation quite difficult!!

 

[one eyed spy]

It would be interesting to know if the hotel had a uniform register? I wonder if any of the staff at the time were interviewed regarding the found uniform? Surely it would not have been too hard to track down whose it was??
If there were only 37 shirts made and the company had to dry clean them, that would make rotation quite difficult!!

I imagine they would have had one absolutely, but, why do you say the hotel had them dry-cleaned? If that were the case surely employees would have left their dirty shirts at the hotel at the end of their shift and collected clean ones at the start of their next shift?
Honestly, I doubt we'll ever know more about the uniform or anything else relating to their investigations at any time than we already know now, unless & until her body is finally located. I'd also be surprised if they actually still had the items in storage & I'd assume the record keeping would be no where near as thorough as they know it has to be today, including the file notes.

 

[Kurve]

I imagine they would have had one absolutely, but, why do you say the hotel had them dry-cleaned? If that were the case surely employees would have left their dirty work clothes at the hotel at the end of their shift and collected clean ones at the start of their next shift?
Honestly, I doubt we'll ever know more about the uniform or anything else relating to their investigations at any time than we already know now, unless & until her body is finally located. I'd also be surprised if they actually still had the items in storage & I'd assume the record keeping would be no where near as thorough as they know it has to be today, including the file notes.

What if it is? I never even thought the body found in Neerbup might be Julie. That would be so amazing if it was, it has to be somebody that's been missing for a long time.

Hope we find out soon.

 

[one eyed spy]

What if it is? I never even thought the body found in Neerbup might be Julie. That would be so amazing if it was, it has to be somebody that's been missing for a long time.

Hope we find out soon.

Ahh, I was wondering what had you Wow'd. Not holding my breath on the body being Julie's but considering the week of no news, thinking it has to be a delay on actually IDing the person or contacting living relatives or the like. We know that recent DNA results have been returned in just hours, not days, so it's unlikely they don't have a result yet.

 

[zedx]

I imagine they would have had one absolutely, but, why do you say the hotel had them dry-cleaned? If that were the case surely employees would have left their dirty shirts at the hotel at the end of their shift and collected clean ones at the start of their next shift?
Honestly, I doubt we'll ever know more about the uniform or anything else relating to their investigations at any time than we already know now, unless & until her body is finally located. I'd also be surprised if they actually still had the items in storage & I'd assume the record keeping would be no where near as thorough as they know it has to be today, including the file notes.

Isn't it amazing how we interpret thing so differently! I had always assumed the shirt and stockings found, where clean items picked up from the uniform dispensary for the next days shift and thats why there was no skirt/pants as they could be worn twice if still clean or staff supplied their own. My reasoning being many companies insist on dry cleaning their uniforms so every one looks pristine (especially white shirts) thus no one turns up in a shirt that has discolored in a home wash. Also I though it was unlikely Julie washed her own uniform because she would not have had time to wash her shirt for the next days shift, so she would of had to of had two shirts? But for such a large hotel, 37 seems a very small amount of shirts for staff to have two each. Maybe it was 37 size 14's? Surely they wouldn't expect staff to have only one shirt each??

 

[mrskafoops]

Isn't it amazing how we interpret thing so differently! I had always assumed the shirt and stockings found, where clean items picked up from the uniform dispensary for the next days shift and thats why there was no skirt/pants as they could be worn twice if still clean or staff supplied their own. My reasoning being many companies insist on dry cleaning their uniforms so every one looks pristine (especially white shirts) thus no one turns up in a shirt that has discolored in a home wash. Also I though it was unlikely Julie washed her own uniform because she would not have had time to wash her shirt for the next days shift, so she would of had to of had two shirts? But for such a large hotel, 37 seems a very small amount of shirts for staff to have two each. Maybe it was 37 size 14's? Surely they wouldn't expect staff to have only one shirt each??

Would they clean the stockings? Also she could have picked up a fresh uniform in the morning? When I worked at the casino we had to hand everything in at the end of our shift and pick up a fresh one the next day. That was only shirt, pants and tie though.

 

[one eyed spy]

Isn't it amazing how we interpret thing so differently! I had always assumed the shirt and stockings found, where clean items picked up from the uniform dispensary for the next days shift and thats why there was no skirt/pants as they could be worn twice if still clean or staff supplied their own. My reasoning being many companies insist on dry cleaning their uniforms so every one looks pristine (especially white shirts) thus no one turns up in a shirt that has discolored in a home wash. Also I though it was unlikely Julie washed her own uniform because she would not have had time to wash her shirt for the next days shift, so she would of had to of had two shirts? But for such a large hotel, 37 seems a very small amount of shirts for staff to have two each. Maybe it was 37 size 14's? Surely they wouldn't expect staff to have only one shirt each??

Sure is. I hadn't considered the clothes may have been clean simply due to the stockings being in the bag as I doubt they would be provided by the hotel. But you're right, it could have been a clean shirt. However, if it was the hotel policy to launder the shirts themselves, I'd also imagine they'd press them too in which case they would likely be collected clean & ironed at the start of the shift then dropped back at the end & they'd not have a need to be removed from the hotel at all.

The only thing we can go on is the fact she was seen with her work clothes in a bag after she changed into the dress & she was seen leaning into her car before going back into the hotel, which makes me think she was depositing her worn items, skirt & shirt. From memory they reported she was wearing the stockings with her dress & I seriously doubt she'd have switched one pair for another after her shift & I think they would definitely been part of her uniform.

I suppose the questions are whether the items were Julie's or not & if so, probably most importantly, were the stockings the ones she was wearing that night?
Did someone else take off her stockings & add them to the bag with the shirt, losing the skirt?
Questions we'll never have answered!

I wish the cops had a habit of updating the public on the facts in cases they know to be true. It may be they know exactly where the shirt came from & it wasn't hers. Anyone could have left it there themselves after finishing work & it may be the Parmelia may have told them instantly that they were aware of a missing shirt that another random employee had misplaced & it's not Julie's. Could be something the press got hold of and jumped on without any basis, as they do, without a thought that decades later it would be something that the likes of us are hanging onto & still wondering if the square peg fits into the round hole.

 

[zedx]

Would they clean the stockings? Also she could have picked up a fresh uniform in the morning? When I worked at the casino we had to hand everything in at the end of our shift and pick up a fresh one the next day. That was only shirt, pants and tie though.

maybe not clean the stockings but supply new ones

 

[zedx]

Sure is. I hadn't considered the clothes may have been clean simply due to the stockings being in the bag as I doubt they would be provided by the hotel. But you're right, it could have been a clean shirt. However, if it was the hotel policy to launder the shirts themselves, I'd also imagine they'd press them too in which case they would likely be collected clean & ironed at the start of the shift then dropped back at the end & they'd not have a need to be removed from the hotel at all.

The only thing we can go on is the fact she was seen with her work clothes in a bag after she changed into the dress & she was seen leaning into her car before going back into the hotel, which makes me think she was depositing her worn items, skirt & shirt. From memory they reported she was wearing the stockings with her dress & I seriously doubt she'd have switched one pair for another after her shift & I think they would definitely been part of her uniform.

I suppose the questions are whether the items were Julie's or not & if so, probably most importantly, were the stockings the ones she was wearing that night?
Did someone else take off her stockings & add them to the bag with the shirt, losing the skirt?
Questions we'll never have answered!

I wish the cops had a habit of updating the public on the facts in cases they know to be true. It may be they know exactly where the shirt came from & it wasn't hers. Anyone could have left it there themselves after finishing work & it may be the Parmelia may have told them instantly that they were aware of a missing shirt that another random employee had misplaced & it's not Julie's. Could be something the press got hold of and jumped on without any basis, as they do, without a thought that decades later it would be something that the likes of us are hanging onto & still wondering if the square peg fits into the round hole.

There are so many scenario's regarding the clothing left at King kebab's, sadly unless someone comes forward ( like the person in charge of the uniforms at the time ) we may never know.
The only reason she would have changed stocking is if the first pair became laddered or if she was switching colours, possibly from skin tones ones for work to black for evening or visa versa.

 

[Krusty Crab]

Ahh, I was wondering what had you Wow'd. Not holding my breath on the body being Julie's but considering the week of no news, thinking it has to be a delay on actually IDing the person or contacting living relatives or the like. We know that recent DNA results have been returned in just hours, not days, so it's unlikely they don't have a result yet.

they could have a dna result, however depending on how long the body has been there they may not have a dna sample to compare to. the police could be checking old missing person files and looking for living relatives to compare DNA, or it could possibly be someone whos family is overseas making a dna comparison a more lengthy issue.

 

[Krusty Crab]

Sure is. I hadn't considered the clothes may have been clean simply due to the stockings being in the bag as I doubt they would be provided by the hotel. But you're right, it could have been a clean shirt. However, if it was the hotel policy to launder the shirts themselves, I'd also imagine they'd press them too in which case they would likely be collected clean & ironed at the start of the shift then dropped back at the end & they'd not have a need to be removed from the hotel at all.

The only thing we can go on is the fact she was seen with her work clothes in a bag after she changed into the dress & she was seen leaning into her car before going back into the hotel, which makes me think she was depositing her worn items, skirt & shirt. From memory they reported she was wearing the stockings with her dress & I seriously doubt she'd have switched one pair for another after her shift & I think they would definitely been part of her uniform.

I suppose the questions are whether the items were Julie's or not & if so, probably most importantly, were the stockings the ones she was wearing that night?
Did someone else take off her stockings & add them to the bag with the shirt, losing the skirt?
Questions we'll never have answered!

I wish the cops had a habit of updating the public on the facts in cases they know to be true. It may be they know exactly where the shirt came from & it wasn't hers. Anyone could have left it there themselves after finishing work & it may be the Parmelia may have told them instantly that they were aware of a missing shirt that another random employee had misplaced & it's not Julie's. Could be something the press got hold of and jumped on without any basis, as they do, without a thought that decades later it would be something that the likes of us are hanging onto & still wondering if the square peg fits into the round hole.

given the publicity of this case, and how it has been considered as a potential CSK case in the past, im wondering what physical evidence the police still have, and during the later years of the CSK search once they had DNA profiles, was any of the Julie Cutler case physical evidence retested for DNA? the clothes in the bag would be a possible source of DNA, and it might help clear up if the clothes belonged to JC or not.

 

[one eyed spy]

given the publicity of this case, and how it has been considered as a potential CSK case in the past, im wondering what physical evidence the police still have, and during the later years of the CSK search once they had DNA profiles, was any of the Julie Cutler case physical evidence retested for DNA? the clothes in the bag would be a possible source of DNA, and it might help clear up if the clothes belonged to JC or not.

I think it's fair to say that you would hope they have done all they can over the years to try to match anything still held to any potential victims, but in saying that, I have no faith whatsoever that any long term evidence still held by police today is reliable. They knew next to nothing about DNA & the ease of contamination & I think it's a safe bet to assume that plenty of old evidence is highly contaminated & not a reliable source that can be utilised for very much at all without extreme caution being exercised regardless.

 

[mrskafoops]

I got the plans for the Parmelia Hilton & Julianas, see attached. I haven't had a good look yet. I am going to print them out and then see if I can interpret them. It does look as though the staff parking was undercover. I assumed it would have been an open air parking lot. While I was at the library I had a look through the X-Press magazines from 1988 hoping to find perhaps an ad for King Kebab or photos from nightclubs like what they had in later years. I didn't find anything useful though but did find the list of the top songs from the week that Julie disappeared!

 

[mrskafoops]

Is anyone able to please show me on a map where the back seat washed up? I’m guessing this car is similar to Julie’s… would the back seat have gone out the rear window?

 

[Kurve]

Is anyone able to please show me on a map where the back seat washed up? I’m guessing this car is similar to Julie’s… would the back seat have gone out the rear window?

Yes, I had it figured that the car went in to the sea via the service road. The back seat would have dislodged pretty quick and gone out the broken back window and drifted, ending up on the other side of the groyne. Not everybody agreed though, I think some had it that the back seat was taken out before the car went in and dumped.

 

[Kurve]

Is anyone able to please show me on a map where the back seat washed up?

I don't think we ever had an exact location of where the back seat was found, just somewhere close to the groyne but on the other side.

 

[mrskafoops]

I don't think we ever had an exact location of where the back seat was found, just somewhere close to the groyne but on the other side.

I thought it would have been pushed north? Not south? This pic is from the windy app.. it seems to always blow in this direction so wouldn’t the current move the same way?