Current Julie Cutler - Murder - 1988 - Cottesloe WA *To the Coroner

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mrskafoops said:
I thought it would have been pushed north? Not south? This pic is from the windy app.. it seems to always blow in this direction so wouldn’t the current move the same way?
Click to expand...

The police searched north for Julie's body, they should have searched south because Cottesloe is influenced by the Leeuwin current, they didn't know much about it back then.

If you search this thread for 'Leeuwin' or 'back seat' there's discussion on it. It's a bit heated but it's interesting.
 

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Yes the seat went south . A hundred metre or more .
Yes your right the winds usually blow that way in Spring summer autumn , June not so. The winds were northerly and blew or drifted (in current) seat southward
 
I’ve seen a photo of Julie somewhere where she is in a white shirt and dark sunnies. I can’t find it! Can anyone please give me a link or copy?
 
Regarding how her car got in the water:

It's almost impossible to drive a car over those rocks. Even if it did make the water it would have been banged up.
A crane is not really feasible.
It had to go in near the surf club at the bottom of Indiana, or Breakers as it was called back then.

Police even say in an article that someone recently posted that on the night the waves were splashing against the wall (near the surf club at bottom of Indiana).

Metic: Do you have tide times for the night?

For that car to go over the edge and into the ocean it almost had to be around high tide.....
 
Mick Burrito said:
Regarding how her car got in the water:

It's almost impossible to drive a car over those rocks. Even if it did make the water it would have been banged up.
A crane is not really feasible.
It had to go in near the surf club at the bottom of Indiana, or Breakers as it was called back then.

Police even say in an article that someone recently posted that on the night the waves were splashing against the wall (near the surf club at bottom of Indiana).

Metic: Do you have tide times for the night?

For that car to go over the edge and into the ocean it almost had to be around high tide.....
Click to expand...
There is a road that leads to the groyne and along it. The rocks to either side of the groyne were added post 1988. It would’ve been a case of driving to the groyne then along it and then either pushing the car off the end or using something to weigh down the accelerator to use the engine to propel it off the end.
 

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Does it really matter how the car ended up in the water exactly when we know that it did & we know there's only 2 likely ways that it got there?

With the condition of the groyne at the time I think it could've been driven off quite easily from 2 separate places without showing any damage to the undercarriage, but I'm unsure how easily that could have been achieved without someone being at the wheel so I lean away from that entry point for that reason.

That only leaves an entry point near the boat shed but whether it was rolled over and floated, or driven down across some sand or left to run down the straight and momentum launched it off the end, I really don't know. Even if we did know for sure, it's not bringing us any closer to solving the mystery of what happened to her unless a consideration is whether she also went into the sea, yet for whatever reason she never came back out, which I seriously doubt.
 
one eyed spy said:
Does it really matter how the car ended up in the water exactly when we know that it did & we know there's only 2 likely ways that it got there?

With the condition of the groyne at the time I think it could've been driven off quite easily from 2 separate places without showing any damage to the undercarriage, but I'm unsure how easily that could have been achieved without someone being at the wheel so I lean away from that entry point for that reason.

That only leaves an entry point near the boat shed but whether it was rolled over and floated, or driven down across some sand or left to run down the straight and momentum launched it off the end, I really don't know. Even if we did know for sure, it's not bringing us any closer to solving the mystery of what happened to her unless a consideration is whether she also went into the sea, yet for whatever reason she never came back out, which I seriously doubt.
Click to expand...
I think all of it is relevant. Working out every detail. It all contributes to the puzzle.
 

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Also, did Julie smoke? I’ve seen a comment in the media that she didn’t smoke and also saw one that said the butts found in her car were from a brand Julie didn’t smoke… implying she did.
 
mrskafoops said:
Also, did Julie smoke? I’ve seen a comment in the media that she didn’t smoke and also saw one that said the butts found in her car were from a brand Julie didn’t smoke… implying she did.
Click to expand...
You are correct, there have been conflicting media statements. But, IIRC it was Julie's sister who stated the butts found in Julie's car where a different brand as to ones she believed Julie smoked. IMHO, I would go with the sisters statement, though with this there is also the possibility Julie bought or changed to a different brand for what ever reason.
 
mrskafoops said:
I think all of it is relevant. Working out every detail. It all contributes to the puzzle.
Click to expand...
We've known which pieces of the puzzle have been missing for over 30 years & they're still missing.That includes the definite entry point of her car into the sea which has always been an either/or scenario based upon what was assumed to be most likely. We don't know for sure & I don't think police opinion is any further advanced either, particularly not with the passage of time.

Most of the cops who will work on the case in years to come will rely on the observations & opinions of past cops to inform themselves, perhaps even relying on aspects that may not be accurate at all. We don't know what they believe exactly because they've never committed to providing us any updated theories which I suggest is because they still have no idea what really happened themselves.

The first statement from police suggesting a departure from it going off the groyne that I'm aware of came 9 years later in an article quoting Sgt Carey who appears to be relying on the fact a forensic report of the car said the undercarriage wasn't scratched. This differs from the opinions of the original investigators who were there on the beach at the time. Whose opinion do you think is the most reliable?

We can speculate to fill in the gaps but that's not assisting to put any further pieces of the puzzle together as we have no idea if there's any truth in it & seeing there's been next to no updated info, it's still a process of deciding the scenario you think is most likely for whatever reason you decide. Still, you won't ever convince me that deciding the entry point of the car into the sea helps to progress putting the puzzle of what happened to Julie together.

Nevertheless, this is some of the comments that have been published about the car over time, plus some other conflicting detail.

Daily News 24Jun88.
- car located 35m off shore. Ignition/lights on. Drivers window & door open.
- Katich puzzled out how it got into the sea.

West Australian 25Jun88.
- murder or suicide not ruled out.
- forensic tests show lights/ignition on when entering the water. Front drivers window open, front doors unlocked, rear doors locked.

The Post 26Jun88
- police divers searched beach Friday 24th & found a floor mat thought to be from the boot near the groyne.
- car found upturned by a swimmer 35m out to sea & well away from the groyne.
- roof was caved in by being pounded against rocks from the groyne.
- no evidence of having been scraped against the groyne.
- service road to boat shed had 1m drop to small amount of sand before reaching sea.
- entry point to sea was still a mystery

Sunday Times 26Jun88
- (Uncle) She wasn’t a drinker, at the most, a very mild social drinker.

Daily News 27Jun88
- unsure of entry into ocean
- Father believes she is dead.
- (Dad) She liked parties and enjoyed a drink.

West Australian Tuesday 28Jun88
- father given up hope she's alive and returned to Kalgoorlie.

Daily News 30Jun88
- sister claims kidnapping was a possibility
- police said no evidence of that but anythings possible.
- unsure of entry to ocean

Daily News 03Jul88
- both front doors unlocked and drivers door open when car found.
- all windows except drivers was shut
- father has lost hope shes still alive
- sister still believes she may have been abducted

Daily News 08Jul881
- she was into club scene
- police now convinced the car was driven off the groyne and Julie wasn't in it.

Daily News 09Jul88
- all leads have petered out
- murder or kidnapping not ruled out
- they dont know the route taken out of the hotel
- julie didnt smoke or drink beer regularly.

The West Australian (date unknown)
- back seat washed up Monday 20/6/88 and handed to ranger
- car found 22/6/88
- no body or any items been retrieved by police.
- if she had suicided, something would have turned up.
- 2 other scenarios - somebody was lying in wait or she went elsewhere after she left work
- the killer drove her car off the groyne to destroy forensic evidence and make it look like a suicide.

29Jan97 - The West Australian
- Detectives working on the case said at the time, that the car had been driven off the nearby groyne or run off an access road to the Cottesloe Surf Club boatsheds about 150m north of the groyne.
- Forensic tests showed that the ignition and headlights had been on when the car entered the water, the front driver's side window was open, the rear doors were locked and both front doors were unlocked.
- Tests showed no damage to the car's chassis, indicating it had not been driven off the rocky groyne. This meant the car had been driven off the access road
- Sgt Carey "It was a stormy night and the waves were breaking at the back of the beach and water was lapping at the boatshed. It would have been easy to push the car off the edge and it would have floated out to sea."

Aside from that we've also heard
- Someone claiming to be Julie called The West saying she just wanted to be left alone.
- Her family received calls for sometime afterwards from a man who said things that gave the impression he may have had some knowledge of what happened to her, they were never able to be traced.
- Someone broke into her Fremantle flat shortly before she disappeared.
- 20yrs later it's reported that her stepsister informs of a madman who tried to run her off of the road in the weeks prior to her disappearance & she had called her family expressing she was concerned about it.

Redacted has put some effort into researching a possible kidnapping theory & raised the possibility of mistaken identity with her Uncles wife of the same name.

What I find quite odd is her dad’s public acceptance of her being deceased so soon after she went missing which suggests to me there’s far more we dont know than we do. For me, it goes past just being realistic about it.

I'd like to know what the male caller said & which family members received calls from him.
I'd really like to see the family come out and tell us all exactly what they know, what they believe & what's been said to them by police about it.
I'd also like to see the cops lay their cards on the table & stop being so secretive about investigations, particularly unsolved investigations that span decades without resolve. Put it out there & give potential for the public to provide you with new info. The practice of keeping it so close to their chests is a tiresome outdated argument IMO.
 
one eyed spy said:
We've known which pieces of the puzzle have been missing for over 30 years & they're still missing.That includes the definite entry point of her car into the sea which has always been an either/or scenario based upon what was assumed to be most likely. We don't know for sure & I don't think police opinion is any further advanced either, particularly not with the passage of time.

Most of the cops who will work on the case in years to come will rely on the observations & opinions of past cops to inform themselves, perhaps even relying on aspects that may not be accurate at all. We don't know what they believe exactly because they've never committed to providing us any updated theories which I suggest is because they still have no idea what really happened themselves.

The first statement from police suggesting a departure from it going off the groyne that I'm aware of came 9 years later in an article quoting Sgt Carey who appears to be relying on the fact a forensic report of the car said the undercarriage wasn't scratched. This differs from the opinions of the original investigators who were there on the beach at the time. Whose opinion do you think is the most reliable?

We can speculate to fill in the gaps but that's not assisting to put any further pieces of the puzzle together as we have no idea if there's any truth in it & seeing there's been next to no updated info, it's still a process of deciding the scenario you think is most likely for whatever reason you decide. Still, you won't ever convince me that deciding the entry point of the car into the sea helps to progress putting the puzzle of what happened to Julie together.

Nevertheless, this is some of the comments that have been published about the car over time, plus some other conflicting detail.

Daily News 24Jun88.
- car located 35m off shore. Ignition/lights on. Drivers window & door open.
- Katich puzzled out how it got into the sea.

West Australian 25Jun88.
- murder or suicide not ruled out.
- forensic tests show lights/ignition on when entering the water. Front drivers window open, front doors unlocked, rear doors locked.

The Post 26Jun88
- police divers searched beach Friday 24th & found a floor mat thought to be from the boot near the groyne.
- car found upturned by a swimmer 35m out to sea & well away from the groyne.
- roof was caved in by being pounded against rocks from the groyne.
- no evidence of having been scraped against the groyne.
- service road to boat shed had 1m drop to small amount of sand before reaching sea.
- entry point to sea was still a mystery

Sunday Times 26Jun88
- (Uncle) She wasn’t a drinker, at the most, a very mild social drinker.

Daily News 27Jun88
- unsure of entry into ocean
- Father believes she is dead.
- (Dad) She liked parties and enjoyed a drink.

West Australian Tuesday 28Jun88
- father given up hope she's alive and returned to Kalgoorlie.

Daily News 30Jun88
- sister claims kidnapping was a possibility
- police said no evidence of that but anythings possible.
- unsure of entry to ocean

Daily News 03Jul88
- both front doors unlocked and drivers door open when car found.
- all windows except drivers was shut
- father has lost hope shes still alive
- sister still believes she may have been abducted

Daily News 08Jul881
- she was into club scene
- police now convinced the car was driven off the groyne and Julie wasn't in it.

Daily News 09Jul88
- all leads have petered out
- murder or kidnapping not ruled out
- they dont know the route taken out of the hotel
- julie didnt smoke or drink beer regularly.

The West Australian (date unknown)
- back seat washed up Monday 20/6/88 and handed to ranger
- car found 22/6/88
- no body or any items been retrieved by police.
- if she had suicided, something would have turned up.
- 2 other scenarios - somebody was lying in wait or she went elsewhere after she left work
- the killer drove her car off the groyne to destroy forensic evidence and make it look like a suicide.

29Jan97 - The West Australian
- Detectives working on the case said at the time, that the car had been driven off the nearby groyne or run off an access road to the Cottesloe Surf Club boatsheds about 150m north of the groyne.
- Forensic tests showed that the ignition and headlights had been on when the car entered the water, the front driver's side window was open, the rear doors were locked and both front doors were unlocked.
- Tests showed no damage to the car's chassis, indicating it had not been driven off the rocky groyne. This meant the car had been driven off the access road
- Sgt Carey "It was a stormy night and the waves were breaking at the back of the beach and water was lapping at the boatshed. It would have been easy to push the car off the edge and it would have floated out to sea."

Aside from that we've also heard
- Someone claiming to be Julie called The West saying she just wanted to be left alone.
- Her family received calls for sometime afterwards from a man who said things that gave the impression he may have had some knowledge of what happened to her, they were never able to be traced.
- Someone broke into her Fremantle flat shortly before she disappeared.
- 20yrs later it's reported that her stepsister informs of a madman who tried to run her off of the road in the weeks prior to her disappearance & she had called her family expressing she was concerned about it.

Redacted has put some effort into researching a possible kidnapping theory & raised the possibility of mistaken identity with her Uncles wife of the same name.

What I find quite odd is her dad’s public acceptance of her being deceased so soon after she went missing which suggests to me there’s far more we dont know than we do. For me, it goes past just being realistic about it.

I'd like to know what the male caller said & which family members received calls from him.
I'd really like to see the family come out and tell us all exactly what they know, what they believe & what's been said to them by police about it.
I'd also like to see the cops lay their cards on the table & stop being so secretive about investigations, particularly unsolved investigations that span decades without resolve. Put it out there & give potential for the public to provide you with new info. The practice of keeping it so close to their chests is a tiresome outdated argument IMO.
Click to expand...
Great summary!!!
 
one eyed spy said:
We've known which pieces of the puzzle have been missing for over 30 years & they're still missing.That includes the definite entry point of her car into the sea which has always been an either/or scenario based upon what was assumed to be most likely. We don't know for sure & I don't think police opinion is any further advanced either, particularly not with the passage of time.

Most of the cops who will work on the case in years to come will rely on the observations & opinions of past cops to inform themselves, perhaps even relying on aspects that may not be accurate at all. We don't know what they believe exactly because they've never committed to providing us any updated theories which I suggest is because they still have no idea what really happened themselves.

The first statement from police suggesting a departure from it going off the groyne that I'm aware of came 9 years later in an article quoting Sgt Carey who appears to be relying on the fact a forensic report of the car said the undercarriage wasn't scratched. This differs from the opinions of the original investigators who were there on the beach at the time. Whose opinion do you think is the most reliable?

We can speculate to fill in the gaps but that's not assisting to put any further pieces of the puzzle together as we have no idea if there's any truth in it & seeing there's been next to no updated info, it's still a process of deciding the scenario you think is most likely for whatever reason you decide. Still, you won't ever convince me that deciding the entry point of the car into the sea helps to progress putting the puzzle of what happened to Julie together.

Nevertheless, this is some of the comments that have been published about the car over time, plus some other conflicting detail.

Daily News 24Jun88.
- car located 35m off shore. Ignition/lights on. Drivers window & door open.
- Katich puzzled out how it got into the sea.

West Australian 25Jun88.
- murder or suicide not ruled out.
- forensic tests show lights/ignition on when entering the water. Front drivers window open, front doors unlocked, rear doors locked.

The Post 26Jun88
- police divers searched beach Friday 24th & found a floor mat thought to be from the boot near the groyne.
- car found upturned by a swimmer 35m out to sea & well away from the groyne.
- roof was caved in by being pounded against rocks from the groyne.
- no evidence of having been scraped against the groyne.
- service road to boat shed had 1m drop to small amount of sand before reaching sea.
- entry point to sea was still a mystery

Sunday Times 26Jun88
- (Uncle) She wasn’t a drinker, at the most, a very mild social drinker.

Daily News 27Jun88
- unsure of entry into ocean
- Father believes she is dead.
- (Dad) She liked parties and enjoyed a drink.

West Australian Tuesday 28Jun88
- father given up hope she's alive and returned to Kalgoorlie.

Daily News 30Jun88
- sister claims kidnapping was a possibility
- police said no evidence of that but anythings possible.
- unsure of entry to ocean

Daily News 03Jul88
- both front doors unlocked and drivers door open when car found.
- all windows except drivers was shut
- father has lost hope shes still alive
- sister still believes she may have been abducted

Daily News 08Jul881
- she was into club scene
- police now convinced the car was driven off the groyne and Julie wasn't in it.

Daily News 09Jul88
- all leads have petered out
- murder or kidnapping not ruled out
- they dont know the route taken out of the hotel
- julie didnt smoke or drink beer regularly.

The West Australian (date unknown)
- back seat washed up Monday 20/6/88 and handed to ranger
- car found 22/6/88
- no body or any items been retrieved by police.
- if she had suicided, something would have turned up.
- 2 other scenarios - somebody was lying in wait or she went elsewhere after she left work
- the killer drove her car off the groyne to destroy forensic evidence and make it look like a suicide.

29Jan97 - The West Australian
- Detectives working on the case said at the time, that the car had been driven off the nearby groyne or run off an access road to the Cottesloe Surf Club boatsheds about 150m north of the groyne.
- Forensic tests showed that the ignition and headlights had been on when the car entered the water, the front driver's side window was open, the rear doors were locked and both front doors were unlocked.
- Tests showed no damage to the car's chassis, indicating it had not been driven off the rocky groyne. This meant the car had been driven off the access road
- Sgt Carey "It was a stormy night and the waves were breaking at the back of the beach and water was lapping at the boatshed. It would have been easy to push the car off the edge and it would have floated out to sea."

Aside from that we've also heard
- Someone claiming to be Julie called The West saying she just wanted to be left alone.
- Her family received calls for sometime afterwards from a man who said things that gave the impression he may have had some knowledge of what happened to her, they were never able to be traced.
- Someone broke into her Fremantle flat shortly before she disappeared.
- 20yrs later it's reported that her stepsister informs of a madman who tried to run her off of the road in the weeks prior to her disappearance & she had called her family expressing she was concerned about it.

Redacted has put some effort into researching a possible kidnapping theory & raised the possibility of mistaken identity with her Uncles wife of the same name.

What I find quite odd is her dad’s public acceptance of her being deceased so soon after she went missing which suggests to me there’s far more we dont know than we do. For me, it goes past just being realistic about it.

I'd like to know what the male caller said & which family members received calls from him.
I'd really like to see the family come out and tell us all exactly what they know, what they believe & what's been said to them by police about it.
I'd also like to see the cops lay their cards on the table & stop being so secretive about investigations, particularly unsolved investigations that span decades without resolve. Put it out there & give potential for the public to provide you with new info. The practice of keeping it so close to their chests is a tiresome outdated argument IMO.
Click to expand...
Thanks for putting that together. This case is fascinating!
I watched the statement that Julie’s dad gave and he said that once he learned Julie’s car had been found he knew something major had happened. Maybe he was being realistic? Sounds like he’s had a few challenges in his life. Maybe they is why he came to the conclusion she was dead so quickly.
 
Dan Baker said:
Superintendent Ron Carey, who investigated the case, said the back seat of the car had been washed out of the vehicle and was found on a nearby beach.

"If the back seat could wash out why didn't Julie's body if she was in the car? Why didn't her shoes, handbag or some other item of property wash up?" he said while being interviewed for the Channel Nine documentary "To Catch a Killer" ten years ago.

"I believe she was never in the car when it went off Cottesloe Groyne. I believe that Julie was murdered and that the body was buried or secreted somewhere else before the car was dumped in the ocean."

Claremont charges bring hope and fears for families of missing and murdered
December 31 2016
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/c...-of-missing-and-murdered-20161231-gtk9el.html
Click to expand...
Does anyone know where a copy of this doco Channel Nine documentary "To Catch a Killer" can be found please? I can find it to download or stream 😞
 
mrskafoops said:
Thanks for putting that together. This case is fascinating!
I watched the statement that Julie’s dad gave and he said that once he learned Julie’s car had been found he knew something major had happened. Maybe he was being realistic? Sounds like he’s had a few challenges in his life. Maybe they is why he came to the conclusion she was dead so quickly.
Click to expand...
I completely understand why he may assume that she wouldn't disappear voluntarily & she wouldn't put her family through the angst of not knowing where she was so if she could contact them she would. Also, that she'd never destroy her own car willingly. But does that not still mean she may have been abducted by someone & was being held against her will & unable to get to a phone? I just think it's really strange that he was so decisive about the fact that he believed she was deceased within days of her going missing, to the point of vocalising that & returning to Kalgoorlie. Maybe he just didn't want the cops in his face & found it all too much to handle seeing he didn't have any answers. Or maybe the reporting was somewhat harsh in painting a picture of a father that had resigned himself to the fact that she must be dead or she would have made contact.
I don't know the answers, but it seems quite odd to me that he appeared so certain that she was deceased & he went back to Kal so soon after she was found to be missing which makes me question how much more there is to the story that we have never been told.
 
I have put in an application to the WA police under the Freedom of Information Act requesting access to case documents. Hopefully I wont just receive a stack of papers that have been completely redacted :D
 
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