Coach Justin Longmuir - Head Coach

Remove this Banner Ad

CapitalA

Team Captain
Nov 18, 2017
476
784
AFL Club
Fremantle
I’m not sure I agree that these are not related. Our i50 deliveries are not to a leading forward or to space where someone can run under and Mark it. Most are just a bomb forward. This allows the defenders to number up at the contest, which results in our forwards having to take a crazy contested mark (like Tabs did last game). If they don’t mark it and ball goes to ground we are immediately under pressure and that’s where we cough up the ball i.e. turn over. Secondly, we don’t get the ball inside 50 fast enough at times. This also allows the defense to set up and get ready for the i50 kick, which results in the same situation.

JLo was quoted as saying, “Our forward line is congested at times. He (Walters) needs more space.” I would argue they all need more space. Lol.

If we can improve the forwards movements and leading patterns and then get our mids to actually see it and then hit them, we will have less contested marks i50 (theoretically), the ball will come to ground less, and when it does our smalls will have more space to work and be under less pressure resulting in less turnovers.

I see the turnovers as a symptom of the problem with the connection between our forwards and mids and our overall forward structure. You’re looking at it as the problem, not a symptom of something else. Maybe we’re both right?


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
I went back to watch the GC game today to re-watch Young's breakout game and found we were moving the ball a lot better back then hitting leads inside 50 the connection mid-forward was actually quite nice.
The problem is we got killed in the 2nd quarter where GC kicked 5 quick goals within something like 7 minutes what i think has happened is JLo has pulled back on the offensive game which again looked really good to focus on the defence so we didn't get killed by quick flurries of goals. Heres hoping he can meld the 2 together over the next few games/off season and 2021.
 

wayToGo_

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 24, 2015
11,521
35,473
AFL Club
Fremantle
I see the turnovers as a symptom of the problem with the connection between our forwards and mids and our overall forward structure. You’re looking at it as the problem, not a symptom of something else. Maybe we’re both right?
Apologies for the mammoth long response. I'm hoping there is some good stuff in here for those willing to read through it all.

If a mid kicks the ball and the opposition intercept it then it is a turnover for the mid. That's a seperate problem to the one I'm talking about because I wasn't using the mid turnover stats. I was only interpreting the turnover stats of our forwards. Your point about the mids not getting it to them (a lack of supply or poor supply) points to the problem I'm talking about actually being even worse. Low supply (to forwards) plus high turnovers (by forwards) means they are turning it over not only much higher than forwards from other teams but also an incredibly higher percentage of the time.

The reverse could also be said for our (injury decimated) backline because they've been up against more inside 50s than most (perhaps all?) other teams and are still not turning it over as much as other team's defences. They have really been incredible as a unit but a fair bit of credit also has to go to our (mostly young) midfield who have put on the best pressure in the league to give the backs a fighting chance (which when they didn't, we get the GWS situation happening or last quarter v Richmond when they all just looked exhausted).

So we've got one of best backlines going around (even with arguably 4 of our best 7 defenders out injured) and we've got a midfield that is arguably #1 in the AFL defensively. Meanwhile every member of our current forward line (plus two forwards not in the team atm) turns the ball over more than all but one forward from each of the most efficient forward lines in the AFL. Our ability to score is atrocious. We have the 2nd worst supply (inside 50s) and the 2nd worst for forward 50 efficiency. The worst in each are two different teams btw (Adelaide and North respectively). Blaming supply purely on the mids is unfair as the majority of i50s by most teams are provided by forwards not mids. Similarly blaming the quality of those i50 entries just on the mids is similarly unfair. We certainly need to improve mid to forward connection but the stats are glaringly obvious that we have a forward line coughing up the ball too much when they do get their hands on the ball.

Even in the scenario where a mid kicks to a pack and our forward can't mark it but gets it to ground and the opposition swoop on it. I'm assuming the turnover gets marked up to the tall forward? I'd argue the forward line could still do plenty of things better to improve the situation (irrespective of the mids) because (a) it is likely none of our small forwards were front and square to either get to the contest and impact the ground ball - either a shot on goal or stopping rebound against; and (b) why did the mid have to kick to the pack? were there no forwards leading into space instead? I refuse to accept the forward line can't improve a bunch of things just because the mid and fwd groups couldn't train together due to Covid.

Coming back to your point about our mids and their ball use. Serong turns the ball over with 27% of his possessions (4.4 turnovers per game). He has the lowest kick efficiency (55.2%) of all our mids except Blakely (50%). The kid is a gun and he's already improving in this area (not doing those quick hack kicks as often these days) so really not a big concern for our future. Aish is 20.3% and 3.2 TO per game (remembering he played back for a few games and that may impact his averages). His kicking efficiency is still good at 67.4% and he chooses to kick over hand-balling more than any of our mids (62.7% of the time). Our other mids are then pretty good with all of them averaging under 3 turnovers per game and TO per disposal pretty reasonable -> Fyfe 12.4% (so good!), Mundy 13.7%, Brayshaw 14.4%, Cerra 14.5%, Bewley 15.9%, Blakely 16.0%, Acres 17.2%, Tucker 20.0%. Blakely our only mid unwilling to kick the ball (34.7% of disposals) most likely because he has the worst kicking efficiency.

When you benchmark that against say WC's midfield we stack up pretty well. Looking at only their best 6 mids, Kelly turns the ball over the most per disposal of all their mids (25.7%). Their lowest is Redden (14.6%). Yeo 17.2%, Shuey 19.7%, Gaff 20.2%, Sheed 23.2% the other four main mids. Excepting Redden (45.7%) they all choose to kick over handball between 52-60% of the time. Their kicking efficiencies are actually worse than our mids but they do kick the ball a bit more per game (~12 more per game total but equating to only about 3 more effective kicks per game overall). Considering the ridiculous hype about their midfield - we're doing more than fine comparatively.

I could go on with other midfields from the top teams but it would be a similar story. Our midfield is doing a really good job and not turning the ball over much at all considering how young some of our players in it are. No question they can improve (and a lot which is the exciting bit), I just think too often the forward line gets to fly under the radar when everything points to them being pretty dysfunctional. No more excuses like low or poor supply by mids, the defenders not moving the ball quick enough, Covid training issues etc. We need to see some dramatic improvement from our forward line in the remaining games. Watching them, the eyes don't lie and the stats back it up in spades. It seems applying pressure is their only KPI atm?!? And even with all that pressure it hasn't translated that much to tackles i50 (15th), nor forward half intercepts and shots on goal. Retaining the ball better plus getting numbers to the contest when we get the ball i50 (especially when kicking to a pack) would give us far better rewards (scoreboard) for all the hard work by our mids and defenders (I would literally be tearing my hair out if I were them).

It is also definitely not about all our forwards spreading out to try and find space. Our smalls should be guiding their opponents away to open space to lead into for guys like Hogan and Tabs. A good way to do that is actually to try and congest the top of the square because if that ball comes into a pack with big numbers around it is unlikely to rebound out quickly (more likely a hack kick that we can hopefully intercept or at worst a f50 stoppage).

I know it's pretty easy to sit in an armchair and critique but I really struggle to see any method at all from David Hale's coaching of our forward line (not just this year either). In stark contrast I am in awe seeing the players executing JLo's team defence with amazing discipline (and in just his first few months on the job).
 

Lach72

Bam!
Sep 30, 2005
44,576
29,181
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Freo and Bulldogs, ManU
Hale is the forward line coach but you can’t just absolve J-Lo of the responsibility like that!
Justin’s backline, but David’s forward line?

now having said that Justin is saying the right things in the pressers...I want to see some improvements...
basic things like: when Jesse Hogan leads and has his man beaten the guy with the ball doesn’t ignore him and bang the ball deep To a contest...time after time after time

When one tall forward is competing for the high ball, the other tall forwards cease dragging their man to the contest, or at worst they provide a screen.
that small forwards get to the drop of the ball.
that forwards and midfielders don’t sh*t their pants within 45 of goal...I mean we’ve fixed our backline ball movement but this seems to be unfixable currently
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

wayToGo_

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 24, 2015
11,521
35,473
AFL Club
Fremantle
Hale is the forward line coach but you can’t just absolve J-Lo of the responsibility like that!
Justin’s backline, but David’s forward line?
JLo's team defence not backline. Given both WC and Pies have talked about how he was the architect of their team defences I think it's safe to say he's been the one responsible for ours. He and Carr are the only new faces. Hale has been with us for 5 years and we're still talking about simple forward line stuff not being at AFL standard. If we need JLo to be responsible for telling our small forwards to get front and square (and similar things) on top of everything else he does then why bother having a forward line coach role at all?
 

FreoMonocle

Premium Gold
Apr 25, 2011
2,088
4,283
AFL Club
Fremantle
I love Ross as much as the next guy but the current gameplan feels like stage 1 of the process to me. They always teach the defence side first. At the moment, the slow, steady movement has us controlling the game and the backline is ALWAYS set up as a result. Add another pre-season where they can train as a group and we’ll be more aggressive.

Think it will also help a lot having Young and Henry (with more games under the belt) delivering the ball.
Did a side last coached by Ross Lyon need a specific focus on defence by any new coach? It very well could be the case as pointed out by Yeti, that we've swapped one defensive coach for another, that "fixing defence" is not a short term measure but that defensive play is his forte and that we may not see specific improvement upfield. To be seen.
 

Snuffaluphagus

Moderator
Sep 10, 2015
6,292
18,368
AFL Club
Fremantle
Did a side last coached by Ross Lyon need a specific focus on defence by any new coach? It very well could be the case as pointed out by Yeti, that we've swapped one defensive coach for another, that "fixing defence" is not a short term measure but that defensive play is his forte and that we may not see specific improvement upfield. To be seen.
I dont have a problem if he is a defensive coach, and while we might not have needed a better defense, the structure is different to Lyon. Its more modern and in the mold of WC and Collingwood. I dont think we are ever going to be an offensive first team, but I think its silly to think there isnt the ability to become more aggressive as the next couple of years unfold. Most coaches take 3+ years to get the team playing how they want and JL definitely could not have fixed all our issues in one COVID season.

I do agree that we might not see improvement with our forwardline and connection but we wont know if JL definitely cant fix it until 2022
 

Yeti

Club Legend
Feb 17, 2012
2,622
6,883
Newcastle
AFL Club
Fremantle
I dont have a problem if he is a defensive coach, and while we might not have needed a better defense, the structure is different to Lyon. Its more modern and in the mold of WC and Collingwood. I dont think we are ever going to be an offensive first team, but I think its silly to think there isnt the ability to become more aggressive as the next couple of years unfold. Most coaches take 3+ years to get the team playing how they want and JL definitely could not have fixed all our issues in one COVID season.

I do agree that we might not see improvement with our forwardline and connection but we wont know if JL definitely cant fix it until 2022
If we win a flag, who cares the style we play?

I couldn't but we have always been a pretty good defensive team. I keep seeing all sorts of stats being thrown about regarding how well our backline is playing but really, it doesn't matter if we can't score.

Longmuir shouldn't be judged on his first year alone, especially one as compromised as this but our inability to score is really concerning me. We are a graveyard for any forward traded to us and even Taberner who we have developed is one of the most frustrating players to have.

I dunno, I guess I am a bit jaded with the club at the moment and if they were listening to the supporters on punting RL then bringing in a similar version of him seems a weird choice.

If we win a flag it's all null and void but we do not look like kicking a winning score anytime soon.
 

apuchar

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 21, 2010
13,449
7,728
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Perth Football Club
Would love to know the stats of how many times the ball goes out the back of the pack. It seems a lot and yet we rarely set up that way.
I expect we will move the ball more quickly on more occasions when have have a more solid back line. I noticed we kicked to Fyfe outside defensive fifty a couple of times last week when he was one on one and tried to attack through the middle of the ground. At the moment we seem to miss one kick or handball on the transition which is causing things to breakdown
 

blue shark

Premiership Player
Aug 15, 2009
3,357
2,427
perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
JLo's team defence not backline. Given both WC and Pies have talked about how he was the architect of their team defences I think it's safe to say he's been the one responsible for ours. He and Carr are the only new faces. Hale has been with us for 5 years and we're still talking about simple forward line stuff not being at AFL standard. If we need JLo to be responsible for telling our small forwards to get front and square (and similar things) on top of everything else he does then why bother having a forward line coach role at all?
Yep need to poach a better forwards coach, what happened to LeCras?
Also Luke Webster played for us at least, but guys like Bassett compared to Hales resume is chalk and cheese.
 

Yeti

Club Legend
Feb 17, 2012
2,622
6,883
Newcastle
AFL Club
Fremantle
When was the last premiership won by an attack first coach? Please do not say Richmond or the Dogs without thinking about it thoroughly first. All AFL coaches are defence first - if they aren't, they don't last long.
No one is denying defence is hugely important. The concern is our lack of scoring ability.
Even when Richmond were horrible they kicked goals (Jack Reiwoldt the petulant child). My reasonable concern is how there is zero balance between defence and attack.

Is that bedding down the new defence? Or is it a problem the club needs to address through players / staff / IP?

For whatever RLs flaws were he was given the same horrific injury management issues as JL has, hopefully our inability to kick a winning score / have a game plan that can win Grand Finals has been passed on as well.
 

holybishop

Club Legend
Oct 9, 2006
2,474
2,117
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
GC Suns, Western Warriors/Scorchers
When was the last premiership won by an attack first coach? Please do not say Richmond or the Dogs without thinking about it thoroughly first. All AFL coaches are defence first - if they aren't, they don't last long.
Hawthorn 2013-15 were the last flags won by a more attack focused team

 

MadMundy

Club Legend
Mar 29, 2019
2,995
5,272
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Arsenal, Glory, Bulls
it's irrelevant how we win, who gives a fu** if it's defensive? A win is a ******* win, it doesn't matter how classy it is.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

holybishop

Club Legend
Oct 9, 2006
2,474
2,117
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
GC Suns, Western Warriors/Scorchers
Pretty sure they were top 4 for defense all of those years and if memory serves top 2 at least once. Outrageously talented team that one.
Check the squiggle. Their defensive efforts were good but down near the end compared to recent premiers.
 

Joao

Norm Smith Medallist
May 2, 2017
9,907
15,898
QLD
AFL Club
Fremantle
Check the squiggle. Their defensive efforts were good but down near the end compared to recent premiers.
5th, 5th, 1st for points against in 13,14,15.

For the two 5ths it was close between 4th (2013) and 3rd + 4th (2014).

They were very good defensively.
 

fnerd

Premiership Player
Aug 23, 2009
4,505
6,330
Castilly rock
AFL Club
Fremantle
Yeah it’s kinda amusing listening to all the excuses now about how important defence first mindset is for the modern game yet , probably the number one reason most supporters wanted RL gone and were happy he was moved on was his dire defensive play and lack of forward craft yet somehow JL is now lauded for it??

FWIW I agree tho he needs to be given time to See if he can get this area of the ground sorted .
(That’s pretty obvious)
but if he doesn’t we ain’t going any further then we did with RL at the helm .
To be a genuine consistent threat for a flag not much has really changed
Top 4 for defence AND top 4 for attack
 

tacopavlich

Premiership Player
Oct 19, 2010
3,127
2,086
perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
I don't think playing coach roulette was ever going to have the effect fans wanted, under Lyon 2019 we were a bunch of new players still learning how to play with each other and 2020 we're still a bunch of new players still learning how to play with each other.

Lyon wasn't given the patience required for a full rebuild and Longmuir still needs that patience. People need to chill out a bit and give it time lol.
 

Daddoo

Footy Yankee
Oct 31, 2015
556
1,571
Chicago
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Green Bay Packers Milwaukee Brewers
Apologies for the mammoth long response. I'm hoping there is some good stuff in here for those willing to read through it all.

If a mid kicks the ball and the opposition intercept it then it is a turnover for the mid. That's a seperate problem to the one I'm talking about because I wasn't using the mid turnover stats. I was only interpreting the turnover stats of our forwards. Your point about the mids not getting it to them (a lack of supply or poor supply) points to the problem I'm talking about actually being even worse. Low supply (to forwards) plus high turnovers (by forwards) means they are turning it over not only much higher than forwards from other teams but also an incredibly higher percentage of the time.

The reverse could also be said for our (injury decimated) backline because they've been up against more inside 50s than most (perhaps all?) other teams and are still not turning it over as much as other team's defences. They have really been incredible as a unit but a fair bit of credit also has to go to our (mostly young) midfield who have put on the best pressure in the league to give the backs a fighting chance (which when they didn't, we get the GWS situation happening or last quarter v Richmond when they all just looked exhausted).

So we've got one of best backlines going around (even with arguably 4 of our best 7 defenders out injured) and we've got a midfield that is arguably #1 in the AFL defensively. Meanwhile every member of our current forward line (plus two forwards not in the team atm) turns the ball over more than all but one forward from each of the most efficient forward lines in the AFL. Our ability to score is atrocious. We have the 2nd worst supply (inside 50s) and the 2nd worst for forward 50 efficiency. The worst in each are two different teams btw (Adelaide and North respectively). Blaming supply purely on the mids is unfair as the majority of i50s by most teams are provided by forwards not mids. Similarly blaming the quality of those i50 entries just on the mids is similarly unfair. We certainly need to improve mid to forward connection but the stats are glaringly obvious that we have a forward line coughing up the ball too much when they do get their hands on the ball.

Even in the scenario where a mid kicks to a pack and our forward can't mark it but gets it to ground and the opposition swoop on it. I'm assuming the turnover gets marked up to the tall forward? I'd argue the forward line could still do plenty of things better to improve the situation (irrespective of the mids) because (a) it is likely none of our small forwards were front and square to either get to the contest and impact the ground ball - either a shot on goal or stopping rebound against; and (b) why did the mid have to kick to the pack? were there no forwards leading into space instead? I refuse to accept the forward line can't improve a bunch of things just because the mid and fwd groups couldn't train together due to Covid.

Coming back to your point about our mids and their ball use. Serong turns the ball over with 27% of his possessions (4.4 turnovers per game). He has the lowest kick efficiency (55.2%) of all our mids except Blakely (50%). The kid is a gun and he's already improving in this area (not doing those quick hack kicks as often these days) so really not a big concern for our future. Aish is 20.3% and 3.2 TO per game (remembering he played back for a few games and that may impact his averages). His kicking efficiency is still good at 67.4% and he chooses to kick over hand-balling more than any of our mids (62.7% of the time). Our other mids are then pretty good with all of them averaging under 3 turnovers per game and TO per disposal pretty reasonable -> Fyfe 12.4% (so good!), Mundy 13.7%, Brayshaw 14.4%, Cerra 14.5%, Bewley 15.9%, Blakely 16.0%, Acres 17.2%, Tucker 20.0%. Blakely our only mid unwilling to kick the ball (34.7% of disposals) most likely because he has the worst kicking efficiency.

When you benchmark that against say WC's midfield we stack up pretty well. Looking at only their best 6 mids, Kelly turns the ball over the most per disposal of all their mids (25.7%). Their lowest is Redden (14.6%). Yeo 17.2%, Shuey 19.7%, Gaff 20.2%, Sheed 23.2% the other four main mids. Excepting Redden (45.7%) they all choose to kick over handball between 52-60% of the time. Their kicking efficiencies are actually worse than our mids but they do kick the ball a bit more per game (~12 more per game total but equating to only about 3 more effective kicks per game overall). Considering the ridiculous hype about their midfield - we're doing more than fine comparatively.

I could go on with other midfields from the top teams but it would be a similar story. Our midfield is doing a really good job and not turning the ball over much at all considering how young some of our players in it are. No question they can improve (and a lot which is the exciting bit), I just think too often the forward line gets to fly under the radar when everything points to them being pretty dysfunctional. No more excuses like low or poor supply by mids, the defenders not moving the ball quick enough, Covid training issues etc. We need to see some dramatic improvement from our forward line in the remaining games. Watching them, the eyes don't lie and the stats back it up in spades. It seems applying pressure is their only KPI atm?!? And even with all that pressure it hasn't translated that much to tackles i50 (15th), nor forward half intercepts and shots on goal. Retaining the ball better plus getting numbers to the contest when we get the ball i50 (especially when kicking to a pack) would give us far better rewards (scoreboard) for all the hard work by our mids and defenders (I would literally be tearing my hair out if I were them).

It is also definitely not about all our forwards spreading out to try and find space. Our smalls should be guiding their opponents away to open space to lead into for guys like Hogan and Tabs. A good way to do that is actually to try and congest the top of the square because if that ball comes into a pack with big numbers around it is unlikely to rebound out quickly (more likely a hack kick that we can hopefully intercept or at worst a f50 stoppage).

I know it's pretty easy to sit in an armchair and critique but I really struggle to see any method at all from David Hale's coaching of our forward line (not just this year either). In stark contrast I am in awe seeing the players executing JLo's team defence with amazing discipline (and in just his first few months on the job).
Lots of stats there. I applaud the effort. I’m not sure what much of it has to do with what I was saying about the possible impact of not being able to practice as a full group on turnovers i50 though.

“Your point about the mids not getting it to them points to the problem I'm talking about actually being even worse. Low supply plus high turnovers (by forwards) means they are turning it over not only much higher than forwards from other teams but also an incredibly higher percentage of the time.”

I think you need to go back and read my post. I didn’t say it was the lack of delivery i50. I’m saying that the mids are not hitting a target on a lead and are mostly just bombing it on top of our forwards heads. This leads to more i50s being contested causing the ball to hit the deck more often. Then, when/if one of our other forwards gets it, they turn it over more often because they’re under a lot of pressure. How many times do we see a leading forward hit on the chest? Like never. That short kick from Shultz to Walters last game was what we need more of.

“Blaming supply purely on the mids is unfair as the majority of i50s by most teams are provided by forwards not mids.”

Not sure I was blaming it all on the mids, but I would love to see some data on this. I would be surprised if a majority of i50s are delivered by forwards. I could be wrong though. You’re a stats guy so I’m sure you can find this.

“Retaining the ball better plus getting numbers to the contest when we get the ball i50 (especially when kicking to a pack) would give us far better rewards (scoreboard) for all the hard work by our mids and defenders”.

I agree our smalls aren’t great at crumbing, but do we really need more numbers to be around a high floating ball that’s kicked i50? How about lowering the eyes and hitting a man on a leading pattern? I’ll take the latter.

“I know it's pretty easy to sit in an armchair and critique but I really struggle to see any method at all from David Hale's coaching of our forward line (not just this year either).”

Agreed! And in my mind this supports what I was saying that our connection between mids and forwards is not great. If the forwards aren’t coached to hold structure and create space for each other (how many times has Lobb and Tabs and Hogan spoiled each other going for a mark? Too many times), then the mids will find it easier to bomb it long i50 than to be able to anticipate where a forward is going to lead. No method + not practicing as a full group = more turnovers i50. Again, I see turnovers as a symptom and you see it as the problem. And like I said in my last post, we’re both probably right in some level (but I get it that in BF things are often just black and white. Gives people more to argue about).

Anyway, thanks for the discourse and great stats. I still think there is a possibility that not being able to practice as a group is impacting our ability to move the ball effectively from the midfield to the forwards.

Our forwards coach thinks so too.

Listen at 2:30.


I agree with you that I’m amazed at how well JLo has been able to install a completely new game plan in these times. It takes a good teacher to be able to do that. Imagine if they were able to train as a full group this year? All this whining about not being able to score is a bit premature imo (and also a bit tiresome). Hawthorn went 5-17 in Alistair Clarkson’s first year and 9-13 their second year. I’m already excited for next year to see how JLo addresses the scoring issue.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Last edited:

wayToGo_

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 24, 2015
11,521
35,473
AFL Club
Fremantle
Lots of stats there. I applaud the effort. I’m not sure what much of it has to do with what I was saying about the possible impact of not being able to practice as a full group on turnovers i50 though.

“Your point about the mids not getting it to them points to the problem I'm talking about actually being even worse. Low supply plus high turnovers (by forwards) means they are turning it over not only much higher than forwards from other teams but also an incredibly higher percentage of the time.”

I think you need to go back and read my post. I didn’t say it was the lack of delivery i50. I’m saying that the mids are not hitting a target on a lead and are mostly just bombing it on top of our forwards heads. This leads to more i50s being contested causing the ball to hit the deck more often. Then, when/if one of our other forwards gets it, they turn it over more often because they’re under a lot of pressure. How many times do we see a leading forward hit on the chest? Like never. That short kick from Shultz to Walters last game was what we need more of.

“Blaming supply purely on the mids is unfair as the majority of i50s by most teams are provided by forwards not mids.”

Not sure I was blaming it all on the mids, but I would love to see some data on this. I would be surprised if a majority of i50s are delivered by forwards. I could be wrong though. You’re a stats guy so I’m sure you can find this.

“Retaining the ball better plus getting numbers to the contest when we get the ball i50 (especially when kicking to a pack) would give us far better rewards (scoreboard) for all the hard work by our mids and defenders”.

I agree our smalls aren’t great at crumbing, but do we really need more numbers to be around a high floating ball that’s kicked i50? How about lowering the eyes and hitting a man on a leading pattern? I’ll take the latter.

“I know it's pretty easy to sit in an armchair and critique but I really struggle to see any method at all from David Hale's coaching of our forward line (not just this year either).”

Agreed! And in my mind this supports what I was saying that our connection between mids and forwards is not great. If the forwards aren’t coached to hold structure and create space for each other (how many times has Lobb and Tabs and Hogan spoiled each other going for a mark? Too many times), then the mids will find it easier to bomb it long i50 than to be able to anticipate where a forward is going to lead. No method + not practicing as a full group = more turnovers i50. Again, I see turnovers as a symptom and you see it as the problem. And like I said in my last post, we’re both probably right in some level (but I get it that in BF things are often just black and white. Gives people more to argue about).

Anyway, thanks for the discourse and great stats. I still think there is a possibility that not being able to practice as a group is impacting our ability to move the ball effectively from the midfield to the forwards.

Our forwards coach thinks so too.

Listen at 2:30.


I agree with you that I’m amazed at how well JLo has been able to install a completely new game plan in these times. It takes a good teacher to be able to do that. Imagine if they were able to train as a full group this year? All this whining about not being able to score is a bit premature imo (and also a bit tiresome). Hawthorn went 5-17 in Alistair Clarkson’s first year and 9-13 their second year. I’m already excited for next year to see how JLo addresses the scoring issue.
I think we are going a bit round in circles. I agree with everything you say and have from the start. But my original post you responded to had nothing to do with mid-forward connection. You tried to turn it into that but I never had any intention of covering that aspect. If I had then I would have been saying the exact same things you are saying about training in separate groups etc.

Forget about the mids for a second. If the forwards don't have the ball they can't turn it over. That's the point right there. They have the ball!!! How it gets there is important but wasn't part of my original post. My post was saying once they have it in their hands then they are giving it up a lot more than they should be. And it isn't just one player in our forward line, it is all of them. If they as a group can't train for things like retaining the ball better then I'm not sure why you'd need a forward line coach. It'd be like saying we can't teach our defenders to defend because they can't train with the mids. Sure, the mids applying pressure downfield is critical to good defence but you shouldn't need them to participate in all your defensive drills to make them effective.
 

yakka man

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 27, 2010
23,748
15,209
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Peel Thunder
I agre but apparently it mattered last year to some on here. There were people saying they had lost interest because it was boring footy (even the wins).
If every club has the same attitude then footy becomes unwatchable. Who wants that? You may as well watch darts.
 

Yeti

Club Legend
Feb 17, 2012
2,622
6,883
Newcastle
AFL Club
Fremantle
I don't think playing coach roulette was ever going to have the effect fans wanted, under Lyon 2019 we were a bunch of new players still learning how to play with each other and 2020 we're still a bunch of new players still learning how to play with each other.

Lyon wasn't given the patience required for a full rebuild and Longmuir still needs that patience. People need to chill out a bit and give it time lol.
Who's not giving him time?
 

Nothing

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 30, 2009
6,493
8,042
AFL Club
Fremantle
If every club has the same attitude then footy becomes unwatchable. Who wants that? You may as well watch darts.
Have you been watching this season? We have managed to create a team to score less than last year (adjusted for time) by 2 goals a game, whilst being more defensive.

FWIW, I like the defensive aspect of the game and would be happy to watch an intense contest that generates a low score over a free flowing "training drill" where both teams pay scant attention to each other. To me, that's not football.
 

Top Bottom